SANFL Finals Week 1 Crowd revealed.....

[robranisgod]

This game could pull the largest crowd of the century. Most appealing GF since Norwood/Port and/or Sturt/Port in the late 90s perhaps? First time in a while two of the big four (Port, Norwood, North & Sturt) have played each other in a GF!

North - big 4

Historically North were always part of the Big 4 and were always referred to in that way. It was only in the late 1970s that Ashley Porter created the new Big 4 and included Glenelg at North's expense.

It was interesting to hear Doug Thomas continually say that West in 1983 were the only team outside of the Big 5 to win a flag.

Surely, pre-1966, Sturt couldn't have been considered a member of the 4 heavies. I'd imagine North were there, along with Norwood and Port. Outside of those three however I'm struggling to find a team worthy of inclusion except maybe West with their (Glenelgesque) run of grand final appearances, or Torrens, who had a huge supporter base at the time. A final consideration could go to South, who with 10 premierships before 64 were the third most successful SANFL club.
Who filled the 4th spot in the "big 4" in the early 60's?

It always depended on which journalist you read.

It was either West on performance or Torrens as a crowd puller.

[robranisgod]

Pre 1900 Norwood and South were considered the Big 2

I have never seen them referred to as the big 2, but if you read any of the early reports of SAFA football the biggest rivalry almost hatred was not Norwood and Port but indeed Norwood and South. South never recovered from the introduction of Electorate football.

[therisingblues]

Interesting stuff Robran, I like reading about how things were and how they came to be today.
I also considered the fact that pre-'66, Woodville and Central had only recently joined, before then it was an 8 team comp. Perhaps the equation of 4 dominating 8 wasn't considered such a big deal as 4 dominating 10?

[Dogwatcher]

South never recovered from the introduction of Electorate football.

Never being able to find a defined home didn't help either.
Although, how long have they been at Noarlunga now?

[therisingblues]

Pre 1900 Norwood and South were considered the Big 2

I have never seen them referred to as the big 2, but if you read any of the early reports of SAFA football the biggest rivalry almost hatred was not Norwood and Port but indeed Norwood and South. South never recovered from the introduction of Electorate football.

What's that?

[Panther Pack]

South never recovered from the introduction of Electorate football.

Never being able to find a defined home didn't help either.
Although, how long have they been at Noarlunga now?

Been at Noarlunga Since 1995.

[am Bays]

Pre 1900 Norwood and South were considered the Big 2

I have never seen them referred to as the big 2, but if you read any of the early reports of SAFA football the biggest rivalry almost hatred was not Norwood and Port but indeed Norwood and South. South never recovered from the introduction of Electorate football.

What's that?

Zones

[UK Fan]

Having to play for the team whose area you live in. Wasn't around in the late 19th century.

Was also the main reason that Adelaide Uni was continually denied a league spot despite applying for many years. The league felt a University team would compromise electoral qualifications. Obviously they should have suggested using top ups from everyone else and it wouldn't have been a problem.....................

[am Bays]

South never recovered from the introduction of Electorate football.

Never being able to find a defined home didn't help either.
Although, how long have they been at Noarlunga now?

That and a lot of their area (around South tce and beyond) was given to that pesky new club Sturt

[SABRE]

Pre 1900 Norwood and South were considered the Big 2

Ahhh the good old days

My word yes! I'll say they were! Wonderful times to be sure.
Although, those abominable Boers had started a second ruckus in the Transvaal by then, you know.

Still, on a positive note, that new-fangled Football Association seemed to be going gangbusters around the same time.
One always looked forward to polishing the saddle and donning one's best ride-finery before trotting down to good
old Kent Town to see the game in the park. Having opened in 1850, The Britannia on Kent Road (long before the
name change to Fullarton Road) was always a good spot to wet your whistle before game time. The boss cocky there
always made sure the trough out front had sweetwater for your horse. Mine was a fine mare I purchased from a
gifted sportsman of the day by the name of Mr. Green.

Good olde days indeed. Mind you, it wasn't always plain sailing you know. One still had to be vigilant as there was
always the odd scallywag lurking about. All too well I remember the time I got to an infamous match and hitched
Alby's Girl to graze. Those magnificent men of Norwood were giving the hapless Portonians yet another right bollocking.
It was during the second stanza in play, we were well into a large barrel of Thomas Cooper's finest and our fourteenth
chorus of 'Cheer The Bonney Red And Blue', when suddenly, I distinctly heard Alby's Girl whinnie in some distress.

Through the bushland, we spied the culprit immediately! The theiving sod was systematically stealing all the horse's shoes.
What an outrage! Well, let me tell you, when it comes to halting a felonious career forever more, there's a lot to be said
for mob justice. Once we'd slipped the area constable a bob or two to look the other way, it was carried out forthwith.
And just where it should be by jove! At the end of a rope from the nearest gumtree. None of that blasted mollycoddling
gaol shenanigans back in those days sonny jim.

Before we hanged the scoundrel, he was forced to tell all and sundry where he hailed from. Upon hearing his coarse
London accent, we expected him to say somewhere like Whitechapel, back in the olde country, but just imagine our
surprise when the cocky blighter said he lived ....................... "Out in the bush between the Little Para River and Gawler!'
Seems some things just never change, eh what?

Tally-ho whippersnappers !

Luv,
Sabre.

[SimonH]

Surely, pre-1966, Sturt couldn't have been considered a member of the 4 heavies. I'd imagine North were there, along with Norwood and Port. Outside of those three however I'm struggling to find a team worthy of inclusion except maybe West with their (Glenelgesque) run of grand final appearances, or Torrens, who had a huge supporter base at the time. A final consideration could go to South, who with 10 premierships before 64 were the third most successful SANFL club.
Who filled the 4th spot in the "big 4" in the early 60's?

Come the end of the 1965 season, Sturt had 4 flags from 10 GFs across 59 seasons (joined 1901, 2 x 3 = 6 years off for the wars). Across the same period (so we're comparing apples with apples), on my count:
West had 6 flags from 12 GFs (they were actually a highly successful club on the final day of the year, winning 6 flags from 7 GF appearances, until the withering run of 1954-1962 failures)
Torrens had 4 flags from 7 GFs
South had 3 flags from 7 GFs (Sturt turned up in the comp at the tail end of their early period of dominance, probably not coincidentally).
(It's not fair to include Glenelg in comparisons as they'd only been around for 42 seasons across 45 years— and of course had been rubbish for most of that time.)

If you just did averagely well in a 7-team comp for 17 seasons, and then an 8-team comp for the next 42, you'd expect to get about 8 flags from about 16 GF appearances.

So the fact is that there was no clear candidate for 'big 4' status, and reference by a journo to there being any 'big 4' (if it existed at all) would have been likely just an attempt to import a concept from Victoria (where there was undoubtedly a big 4). In fact, especially if you focus on 20th century performances (and really, while a proud part of club history, having won a bucketload of flags in the 1800s provided fairly little solace by the early 1960s if your team hadn't made the finals since Hitler was in power), there's no doubt that in SANFL footy through to the mid-1960s there was a big 3. Or even (slightly more controversially, but results bear the theory out) a big 2, with North occupying the bronze medal position.

Of course, journalism like most public assessments, is skewed much more towards recent events than the big overview of history. So anyone using the 'big 4' concept in 1963 would presumably have thrown West in there; by 1965 the worm had turned and it probably would have been Sturt.

And speaking of long-term plans being made based on recent history, I've got a pretty good idea what would have happened if one existing South Australian club had been invited to join the VFL for the 1971 season!

[Panther Pack]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe South's Crowd figures for Grand Finals have not decreased over the last 30 years while I believe it has for every other club.

Does this potentially mean South is a sleeping giant and possible should be included in the BIG 4????

[Dogwatcher]

And speaking of long-term plans being made based on recent history, I've got a pretty good idea what would have happened if one existing South Australian club had been invited to join the VFL for the 1971 season!

Westies!

[heater31]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe South's Crowd figures for Grand Finals have not decreased over the last 30 years while I believe it has for every other club.

Does this potentially mean South is a sleeping giant and possible should be included in the BIG 4????

No, it potentially leaves you open for ridicule for even suggesting such a thing

[dedja]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe South's Crowd figures for Grand Finals have not decreased over the last 30 years while I believe it has for every other club.

Does this potentially mean South is a sleeping giant and possible should be included in the BIG 4????

Incorrect, South's GF attendances have been steady for 48 years with 1979 as the baseline.

I also don't believe TSG is South either.

Sorry, you've lucked out on both counts.

[therisingblues]

Is it fair to be comparing Sturt's record with established clubs' from 1901 to 1963?
Our first three seasons were at the foot of the ladder, as would be expected for a newly formed club, and we got another couple of spoons before finally getting it together. Off the top of my head I think our first 8 odd seasons were basically finding our feet. We won our first flag just before WW1 and our second just after WW1.
just wondering about your "apples with apples" comparison.
In perspective, Glenelg went about three seasons without winning a game when they joined. Central never beat Sturt until about 8 seasons after joining.
History shows new clubs can be expected to take a few seasons to get up to speed.

[dedja]

Glenelg lost their first 56 matches ... seems like nothing much has changed

[Panther Pack]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe South's Crowd figures for Grand Finals have not decreased over the last 30 years while I believe it has for every other club.

Does this potentially mean South is a sleeping giant and possible should be included in the BIG 4????

Incorrect, South's GF attendances have been steady for 48 years with 1979 as the baseline.

I also don't believe TSG is South either.

Sorry, you've lucked out on both counts.

Okay I think I have got it. South would be considered a BIG 4 club when it comes to Finances
Some might even say "A SLEEPING GIANT"!!!!!!!!!

[therisingblues]

There might be more than a little truth in that Panther Pack.
With their financial set up and current overflow of finances, all they need is a relatively short period of finals appearances with a couple of flags in there, and they'll be on the verge of an era. They'd have the cash to keep the beast alive.