NTFL plans back on SANFL agenda

[Ian]

Tassie you numbering is suspect - first of all you have counted the entire SA population. Crowds for SANFL come from the Adelaide metro area so your figuring should be 1m people divided by 9 clubs - about the same as the 110,000 in Darwin. Dunno where you got your 63% figure from but the combined attendances of NTAFL games exceed the average club attendance in SANFL - hence NT is more strongly supported.

Darwin also does not have a AFL side (let alone 2) to take away the crowds as has happened in SA.

[Blue Boy]

Some long drawn analysis out there.

Could the AFL tip some more TV $$$ into the SANFL to make the NT team happen. Surely having a NT team in the second best competition would get them the AFL a little excited.

The AFL still have to sort through the radio $$$ deals and $$$ internet as well more money for them to spread around.

[doggies4eva]

Tassie you numbering is suspect - first of all you have counted the entire SA population. Crowds for SANFL come from the Adelaide metro area so your figuring should be 1m people divided by 9 clubs - about the same as the 110,000 in Darwin. Dunno where you got your 63% figure from but the combined attendances of NTAFL games exceed the average club attendance in SANFL - hence NT is more strongly supported.

Darwin also does not have a AFL side (let alone 2) to take away the crowds as has happened in SA.

Thats right. Thats why I think a combined side would be well supported - it would be the premier standard team in the NT - the equivalent of Crows or Power - and would probably draw interest from previously non-attenders like the Crows did. If that happens then the sponsors would get on board.

[stan]

The idea does have the advantage of getting rid of the bye, but other than that i think it will cost the sanfl more than what the idea is worth.

But to get rid of the bye i would still like to see the idea of a team from Mt.Barker looked at first

[Wedgie]

Does anyone know if the AFL tipped any money into the VFL or more specifically Tasmania?

[Sam_goUUUdogs]

It won't be called the SANFL will it...?
The South Australian and Northern Territory National Football League, won't happen...!

considering the Northern Territory is actually the Northern Territory of South Australia it shouldnt be a problem.

Sorry if this is off topic, but what do they teach you guys in school these days

The Northern Territory is a federal territory of Australia.
The Northern Territory was part of New South Wales from 1825 to 1863 and part of South Australia from 1863 to 1911.
On 1 January 1911, a decade after federation, the Northern Territory was separated from South Australia and transferred to Commonwealth control.
For a brief time between 1926 and 1931 the Northern Territory was divided into North Australia and Central Australia at the 20th parallel of South latitude.
In 1978 the Territory was granted responsible government, with a Legislative Assembly headed by a Chief Minister.

i knew my teacher was dumb, he said it still was part of SA and this was last year.

[am Bays]

Beauty! At least some sensible comments so we can have a debate. I've gotta have my 5 cents worth.

So to respond to your points Wedgie:

1. Money
$1m you say? Well money in the SANFL comes to the clubs from:
Fundraising
Sponsors
Members and attendance
SANFL distributions

The work to be done by the NTAFL will be to put together a plan which gathers revenue from the above sources - if they join SANFL distributions will be a given. Membership and attendance should not either as on a pro rata basis the NT is stronger than SA. Tassie you numbering is suspect - first of all you have counted the entire SA population. Crowds for SANFL come from the Adelaide metro area so your figuring should be 1m people divided by 9 clubs - about the same as the 110,000 in Darwin. Dunno where you got your 63% figure from but the combined attendances of NTAFL games exceed the average club attendance in SANFL - hence NT is more strongly supported.

Sponsors - now that could be a problem - they are not many big corporates up here so Marketing would have to work hard - however having an Adelaide team in town every second week must be some sort of incentive for accomodation and the rest of the tourism industry to get behind the concept.

Fundraising - I can't seen any problem there - Nt has pokies too!

2. Dry season - Yes this is an issue - It is perfectly possible to play in the dry but currently it is played in the wet. The problem is how do you keep your reserves match fit?

3. Recruits - a lot you say? Looking at that composite side on Saturday I'd say they were two or three players short of a win. North were bigger and stronger. The strength issue can be fixed by a more professional gym program and the bigger is where recruiting comes in. Note that at the moment there are quite a few NT players of high quality in the AFL. If there was a SANFL team up here I suggest that there'd be more! Those AFL players would probably be keen to have the opportunity of playing for a home team when their AFL careers are over. I suggest that recruitment may no be the issue you think. If the dollars are there the players will come.

4. Darwin is small - yeah but I think point 1 covers this - it is about 1/9th of Adelaide. About the right size for a team to be competitive.

The main issues as I see them are off the field - do we have NT administators with the vision and drive to make this happen? Will the AFL be supportive or white ant the idea? The AFL have a fair bit of control over NT having bailed them out recently.

I'll reply to your posts doggies:

1 Money: Do you think SANFL clubs are going to want to have their distribution dwindle even further by having it going to a 10th team in the NT plus the cost of travel and accom? It is going to cost 400 000 to fund travel for 20 games involving the NT team. The AFL fund the travel for 35 people for games interstate, can the SANFL afford fund 20 games involving 30 people? Or do you make the NTAFL pay for the privilege of playing in our comp. Therefore the budget for the NT team is going to be ~$1.8 Million based on Glenelgs expenditure for 2005 ($1.4 Mill and the cost of travel and accom). I only use Glenelg expenditure as an example, because we weren't successful I'm sure the succesfull clubs spend more......

Expenditure for consumables, medical supples and all the costs associated with putting a team on the park for the NT team are going to be higher than a SANFL team due to the "NT Levy" placed on all goods going to the NT. Having been involved at the SANFL level and the NT Institute of Sport we paid a lot more for medical supplies etc than we would in Adelaide. Doggies I'm sure yuou the differences in cist between Darwin and Adelaide......

Pokies, Doggies talk to NT cricket and NT 8 ball about their dwindling returns from the Casuarina club, pokies aren't the panacia for sporting orgs up there as they are in Adelaide. The NTAFL club is located 20 km away from the ground in a population centre of 20 000 people. As you know Doggies Darwin people won't travel to Palmerston to play the pokies when they drive to one of the several pokies places in Darwin itself....

Have a chat to company marketers, thir budgets are miniscule compared to SA marketing budgets as the NT market is so small, 200 000 v 1.7 Mill. I know I had the conversation with them regarding the test cricket in Darwin....Major sponsorship decisions are made in southern states not at the Darwin level.

The plan for this team has been in place since 2000, talk to Bob Elix and the last three NTAFL General Managers. If they could raise the funds for this it would have been done by now.

Govt funds....NT S&R has a budget of $14 Mill, the funds for events is $5 Mill, that has to help pay for 4 AFL games, 1 game each of NNL, NBL & NRL along with Masters games in Alice and the joke Arafura games in Darwin. The last two are biennial plus there are 2 test matches to be played in 2007 & 2008. The stated policy of the NT Govt is the best competiton events to be played in Darwin and Alice, not regular 2nd best comps. In other words it is not part of the current NT governemts agenda. The U/18 program fits into their NTIS concept. So chances of NT Govt funds, zilch.....

AFL already prop up the NTAFL (bailed them out of the poo in 2002) and significantly fund the U/18 team. As I have said previously they do not want the SANFL to become to strong compared to the other state leagues....

2. Good AFL players who could play in the NT SANFL side play Rugby league and Union in the dry season......e.g. Jarred Illet
For the team to be viable they need the NTAFL to move to a dry season comp but the clubs will not allow it as they now they will lose players to other codes. This debate has been in NT footy circles for 30 years

3. Having worked at the NTIS I know the footy players application towards weight training and physical conditioning very poor. Darwin footy culture is social not elite sport, far easier to go drinking with you mates and brothers than to train hard....An example of NT footy palyers attitude to training is I know of one team that only had 12 players rock up to training on the Tues before a GF once!!! Great application hey??

4. Irrespective of my figures, I agree the population of darwin is 110 000 but only 2/3 of that follow footy, so the footy specific market is only 70 000. My population arguement not only covers sponsorship $$$ but the player development base to put a league team on the park. That is my point using the SA figures (all of it) SANFL teams with their county and Metro zones produce a league team based on 170 000 people not 70 000.

The crux of sports development is that all successful sporting organisations have a broad base of participation, In Darwin that broad base of participation just isn't there to support the development of SANFL league footballers. Read some of the sports developemt papers of the Australain sports Commission and a bloke called Istvan Balyi if you doubt what I say.

In short it is a great idea, and my heart says I would like to see it happen but my head knows the population of the NT that follows footy, the funds required and the entrenced sporting culture of the NT will not permit the formation of a viable long term 10th team in the SANFL comp.

Better off putting a team in the growth areas of Adelaide.

Personally, when I take over from Leigh, I will relocate North Adelaide to Golden grove, give Woodville the Prospect/Broadville area , push Westies and Glenelg further south and put West Torrens back in their heart land......

[XXXXRooster]

I'd love to see this but maybe Southport with there pokie $$$$$ is the beter bet, they should stop with thier AFL wishes and go somewhere they could afford right now!!! Or maybe hijack Tassies VFL side? hey Tassie boys, twice the VFL salary cap(though they may get some help from above, see Brett Beams getting offered extra not to go to W/WT Eagles, well what else would have kept him there???)

[Jimmy]

will that what happened to the tassie local leagues happen to the darwin local league is a composite team was to come in? tassie footy is dead almost...could the same happen in the NT???

[drebin]

Well put Tassie - spot on with that assessment. After talking to officials from the NT after last weeks game they all think it is a pipe dream unless someone coughs up at least $1.5m per year to start with and to be honest none of them were very enthusiastic about it the whole idea in any case. Despite the SANFL keeping it on the agenda (at least in the media) even they agree that it is just a dream - check with the club CEO's and get their thoughts. The SANFL or the clubs do not want to finance a loser, as it is only 4-5 clubs in the SANFL could consider themselves viable and a couple of them have no margin to be spreading their income north of the border. Perhaps it is time to look closer to Adelaide - either to find another team but personally I think 8 teams is the way to go but as I have said previously - who goes or who merges?

[Jimmy]

i say merge port and eagles and call them port natives

[Pseudo]

I'd love to see this but maybe Southport with there pokie $$$$$ is the beter bet,

Southport got a pants-down walloping from the then SANFL wooden spooner in a trial match a few years back. I doubt they'd be competitive.

[Pseudo]

I don't suppose there is any chance the SANFL could lure one of the VFL teams over, possibly even the Tassies?

That would not only get rid of the bye, but would be deliciously ironic at the same time...

[Punk Rooster]

Personally, when I take over from Leigh, I will relocate North Adelaide to Golden grove, give Woodville the Prospect/Broadville area , push Westies and Glenelg further south and put West Torrens back in their heart land......

Back in yer box! Interesting, might try & locate the suburb of "Broadville" one day, sounds an interesting place. Perhaps the Bays can give their recruiting zone to Woodville, & in return, you can have KI to yourself.

[Dogsbody]

"South Australian & Northern Football League"

The original plan for an NTFC social club was a joint at Palmerston, I think.

Bring a VFL team over? Hehehehe... yeah that would be rather ironic. North Ballarat or Bendigo perhaps?

[doggies4eva]

Thanks Guys for your comments. Here is my response:

1 Money: Yes Money is the main point here!
Money means bigger crowds more sponsors. This will only happen if the comp is revitalised. This is an exercise in making the cake bigger. If it was simply a case of one more slice from the same cake I would be against it too. The SANFL is slowly dwindling into obscurity - see the stats on crowds due to AFL having all the pull. A move to make the comp a regional rather than Adelaide metro comp would close the gap a little.

Expenditure for consumables, Yes the cost of living in Darwin is higher than Adelaide, but the gap is closing as Darwin grows. This is a fact of life for all NT activities and I don't regard it as a major impediment.

Pokies, - agree with what you say Tassie. But $ for $ NT spends more on gambling than SA. There would need to be a strategy to have clubrooms strategically placed. Regarding Marketing, I did say that it would be a challenge but did see some opportunities -ie on a pro-rata basis Tourism is bigger up here than any other state!


Govt funds....If you want to debate govt policy we will be on this topic for a long time, but consider this. The AFL games held in Darwin have a negative impact on the NT economy - ie the govt subsidy outweighs what little economic benefit there is. But a NT side competing in a regional comp will produce - more income for players, more travel and accomodation business from travelling teams and supporters and possibly more of those meagre sponsorship funds from national companies who will look for higher profile sports. The economic benefits arguement is a fairly compelling one.

2. Good AFL players who could play in the NT SANFL side play Rugby league and Union in the dry season. Well they have no choice do they?

3. Darwin culture - surely this is another positive! We are talking about an elete squad - ie only those players ready to step up would make it. I would argue that there has been a positive spin off for SANFL clubs in having AFL clubs raising the standard - it has filtered down in SA and will in NT too.

4. Footy is very strong up here - regardless of your 2/3rds stat. There is more participation in Aussie rules in the NT that SA so if 2/3rds is correct for NT it must be less for SA.

Sports development - we are talking about 1 team for 110,000 people in Darwin and 200,000 in NT - similar to the avaerage potential support for each SANFL team.

Better off putting a team in the growth areas of Adelaide? Maybe, I'd pursue both. Just adding one more team doesnt go far enough. We need a revoltionary approach to counter the steady decline in attendance and interest in SANFL.

When I take over from Leigh can I have a job as your Deputy? I will implment all of you ideas plus mine before I retire.

will that what happened to the tassie local leagues happen to the darwin local league is a composite team was to come in? tassie footy is dead almost...could the same happen in the NT??? NT footy has been struggling anyway - bailed out by AFL a couple of clubs struggling - they need new ideas too!


Drebin - as I said - my major concern is the lack of administrators with any vision. So you want to drop down to 8 teams? OK and then in 10 years when the decline continues you can drop down to 6, then 4. Slowly strangle the sport why don't you?

I think that covers all of the comments. Over to you.

[drebin]

We cannot barely support 9 teams now so how is a tenth going to survive? It is either one (10) or the other (8) but if we go to either we have to ensure all are viable but how you do that is anyone's guess. Look at where Norwood and Sturt are now compared to previous era's. I still think 8 team SANFL with hopefully viable pokie fuelled clubs having a strong comp.c

[doggies4eva]

We cannot barely support 9 teams now so how is a tenth going to survive? It is either one (10) or the other (8) but if we go to either we have to ensure all are viable but how you do that is anyone's guess. Look at where Norwood and Sturt are now compared to previous era's. I still think 8 team SANFL with hopefully viable pokie fuelled clubs having a strong comp.c

But if the 10th team is from the NT there will be no further drain on Adelaide - its opening up new markets.

[drebin]

There will a be a big financial cost to be met by the SANFL for a NT team. That cost could well be passed onto the clubs e.g. having the AFL dividend reduced - which to some clubs in their current financial situations could prove to be disasterous.

[therisingblues]

Great reading the debate on here, in particular Tassie and Doggies' comments (among others). Good to get the news from people who appear to be in the know.
I am a big fan of the idea, although I am not too well informed of the logistics, but Tassie's 4th point regarding supporterbase/player development base doesn't add up too well. Can't see how you can place a 65% limit on interest in the game in the NT but assume that in SA there is a 100% interest to be worked with, hence each team having a potential 170,000 people allocated to it.
Ian's point about the two AFL teams playing out of SA is quite valid also.
The details about marketing opportunities being poor in the NT seems to make sense, probably one of the possible detractions to the existing SANFL clubs that Drebin was referring to, if we have to share part of the marketing pie with the NT.
But I think the greatest thing about the proposal is breaking out of the Adelaide mentality. I feel very strongly that if people make the SANFL expansion in to the NT work there will be spin offs we haven't considered. Doggies 4 eva alluded to it when mentioning economic spin offs. Expansion in the NT is a way of making an SA product (the SANFL) stand out more, with the right thinking and the right marketing businesses will be queing up to become a part of it. The SANFL itself would take more notice, as well as the Advertiser and from there others will follow. We should light the beacon, raise it high and encourage the masses to join us.
I am going a little overboard, and probably should leave this to the people that understand the figures a bit better. After all, if it isn't economically viable then it shouldn't happen.