NTFL plans back on SANFL agenda

[doggies4eva]

Further to the debate, the CEO of NTAFL was interviewed in the NT News on the weekend and made the following comments:
The NT have to address local issues related to their own domestic comp before committing to joining the SANFL. He then went on to say "It has got to happen at some time" and when asked when he said "in the next 12 to 18 months".

I found this all a bit ambiguous as the headline seemed to be back pedalling but to say that they would join in the next 12 to 18 months is tanatmount to saying next season. I mean no-one would expect them to join this season and they can't join mid-season so the only option within the parameteres mentioned is next season - which means they had better get down to some serious planning.

But I think the greatest thing about the proposal is breaking out of the Adelaide mentality. I feel very strongly that if people make the SANFL expansion in to the NT work there will be spin offs we haven't considered. Doggies 4 eva alluded to it when mentioning economic spin offs. Expansion in the NT is a way of making an SA product (the SANFL) stand out more, with the right thinking and the right marketing businesses will be queing up to become a part of it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head rising blues - I don't think the SANFL (or the WAFL or NTAFL) have yet come to terms with the impact that AFL is having on the sport. AFL is now dominating the media, hence getting the bulk of sponsorship and crowd income to the point that the traditional urban comp is in my view dead in the water. Unless we come to terms with this and stop wishing for the good old days when the SANFL match of the day attracted a crowd of 15,000 and media attention all week then we are as dead as Fitzroy. We need a new concept - something which gives new interest for crowds, media and sponsors.

In my view this is either a div 2 and 3 AFL (won't happen cause all they care about is their own clubs) or some sort of regional comp. I would like to see the AFL show some leadership and have say three regional comps - Qld/NSW, Vic Tassie and SA/NT/WA. There would then be an annual carnival where the top 1 or 2 in each regions played for the Aussie regional championship. It won't happen cause the AFL lacks the vision or leadership. Failing that the various non-AFL comps will have to do it themselves. For the SANFL, having the NT join takes it above a suburban Adelaide comp. - I would like to also see regional representation form the other strong SA regions that others have mentioned.

Or you could just do nothing and hope that the good times return. It worked for Fitzroy didn't it?

[therisingblues]

Doggies 4 eva; perhaps if the NT expansion is successful then the SANFL will begin to think about the Champions of Australia concept again.
Hope the NT can sort their problems out.

[Punk Rooster]

Or you could just do nothing and hope that the good times return. It worked for Fitzroy didn't it?

Unless I missed something, didn't Fitzroy merge with the Brisbane Bears, to become the Brisbane Lions???

[Ian]

Or you could just do nothing and hope that the good times return. It worked for Fitzroy didn't it?

Unless I missed something, didn't Fitzroy merge with the Brisbane Bears, to become the Brisbane Lions???

Yep

http://lions.com.au/default.asp?pg=lionshistory&spg=overview

[old blue]

I must say I'm surprised to see the SANFL revisiting this issue. I can't see that anything has changed since they looked at it before and turned it down. Transport costs remain the major stumbling block. The NT competition is mainly based in and around Darwin. The total population of Darwin and outlying areas, including Palmerston and Litchfield is approx. 107,000. A little less than the number available in the greater Adelaide area to support each of the present 9 SANFL clubs, approx 114,000. Average incomes in Darwin are a little higher than Adelaide but this would be offset by the higher cost of living in Darwin. So I simply cannot see where the extra revenues are going to come from to offset the considerable costs involved in transporting a team to and from Darwin at least 18 times each season.

[doggies4eva]

Or you could just do nothing and hope that the good times return. It worked for Fitzroy didn't it?

Unless I missed something, didn't Fitzroy merge with the Brisbane Bears, to become the Brisbane Lions???

Thats my point. They were forced to merge. Fitzroy playing in Victoria no longer exists. If you don't take control of your own destiny someone will do it for you.

[doggies4eva]

I must say I'm surprised to see the SANFL revisiting this issue. I can't see that anything has changed since they looked at it before and turned it down. Transport costs remain the major stumbling block. The NT competition is mainly based in and around Darwin. The total population of Darwin and outlying areas, including Palmerston and Litchfield is approx. 107,000. A little less than the number available in the greater Adelaide area to support each of the present 9 SANFL clubs, approx 114,000. Average incomes in Darwin are a little higher than Adelaide but this would be offset by the higher cost of living in Darwin. So I simply cannot see where the extra revenues are going to come from to offset the considerable costs involved in transporting a team to and from Darwin at least 18 times each season.

Taking this arguement to it's logical conclusion - the AFL can't afford to exist.

[old blue]

No I'm sorry but that isn't a logical conclusion. It just highlights the vast gulf between the two worlds, professional and (at best)semi-pofessional. It's like comparing coconuts and peanuts. Look at what happens on an even bigger scale overseas, where they pay players millions and fly teams all over the world. I spent most of my working life as an accountant and I still have trouble getting my head around where all that money comes from. Sadly not much of it filters down to the SANFL.

[doggies4eva]

No I'm sorry but that isn't a logical conclusion. It just highlights the vast gulf between the two worlds, professional and (at best)semi-pofessional. It's like comparing coconuts and peanuts. Look at what happens on an even bigger scale overseas, where they pay players millions and fly teams all over the world. I spent most of my working life as an accountant and I still have trouble getting my head around where all that money comes from. Sadly not much of it filters down to the SANFL.

That money principally comes from 2 sources - TV and sponsorship (although a headline act like Manchester United make a tidy sum out of merchandising). But all of these sources are reliant upon spectator interest which is indicative of crowds.

[old blue]

That money principally comes from 2 sources - TV and sponsorship (although a headline act like Manchester United make a tidy sum out of merchandising). But all of these sources are reliant upon spectator interest which is indicative of crowds.

You're quite right of course and the bottom line is market size, especially for commercial TV. The 2006 Superbowl was expected to reach a TV audience of up to 100million people out of a total US population of around 280million. 30 second ad spots were selling for $2.5million. Yet already the Superbowl organizers are talking about taking it off broadcast TV next year because they can make more money putting it exclusively on cable. Sometimes I wonder if we're all living on the same planet

[doggies4eva]

That money principally comes from 2 sources - TV and sponsorship (although a headline act like Manchester United make a tidy sum out of merchandising). But all of these sources are reliant upon spectator interest which is indicative of crowds.

You're quite right of course and the bottom line is market size, especially for commercial TV. The 2006 Superbowl was expected to reach a TV audience of up to 100million people out of a total US population of around 280million. 30 second ad spots were selling for $2.5million. Yet already the Superbowl organizers are talking about taking it off broadcast TV next year because they can make more money putting it exclusively on cable. Sometimes I wonder if we're all living on the same planet

Right - so we need a strategy to increase market size - including the NT will increase it about 20% (assuming that the NT will recognise it as a represenative side) - ie it should see the potential of 20% more revenue generated.

[am Bays]

NT HAS THE WILL, NEEDS THE EXPERIENCE

THE SANFL has chipped in substantially for the Northern Territory Football League to increase its assocation with the SA league by covering the gate losses when North Adelaide played the NTFL in Darwin last week.

The NTFL needed 5000 through the gates to cover costs at Marrara Oval on the night but fell short by 620.

SANFL president Rod Payze delighted the after-match audience saying the SANFL would picked up the shortfall.

No figures were mentioned but at $13 an adult to get in that's genuine assistance.

The weekend exercise also cost North Adelaide a "substantial amount" including paying for buses to ferry around about 100 Roosters fans who paid their own way to the Top End.

There's widespread support among Darwin's footy lovers to field an NTFL in the SANFL.

North Adelaide coach Andrew Jarman says the Buffaloes would be competitive with a little development.

"There's no doubt they struggled with height and strength," Jarman said after North's 23-point win.

"They need to find (key players down the) spine and some forward cohesion. They need to recruit."

Jarman said firstly the NTFL - if it intended to come into the SANFL - had to find a high-profile coach to attract key players back to Darwin from other leagues.

"The first thing you do is go and knock on Darren Jarman's door," he said. "There is a future (for NTFL in the SANFL), no doubt, but how long it takes is up to the powers that be. They have to be serious otherwise don't dangle the carrot in front of us."

NTFL coach Damian Hale resigned after the match but it was not because of the loss. A disappointed Hale said he wanted to focus totally on coaching the NT Thunder under-18s. He said the NTFL was smashed by North's better structure especially at the ball-ups.

"That comes from playing at a quality level of footy and I think if a Territory side got to play SANFL every week, within 12 months we'd be just as slick. I think we got a bit of a lesson in 'inside football' where you put yourself between the ruckman's hand and your opponent."

Hale looked sour when he featured on the back page of the NT News on Monday wearing a North guernsey when both sides met socially on Sunday. It was the result of a side bet he had with ever-niggling Jarman. The only positive for Hale was he got to keep the jumper.


Courtesy of The Advertiser
Story by Doug Robertson


I rest my case,

If the SANFL has to chip in for a once off, how much are they going to have to chip in come mid season when the NT team has no chance of making the finals and they are playing one of the less well supported SANFL teams (based on current membership you could argue - us!!!)

Doggies admire you passion for the arguement but it is a nobrainer, it aint going to happen especially once the NT public realise they are paying $5 more than the SANFL supporters in Adelaide.....

And knowing the set up of the NTAFL and their sponsorship sources, accommodation sponsorship would have been reasonably substantial from the casino.....

Got to admire the Robbo's spin on widespread support when it is one of the poorest crowds they have got their for a rep game.....very similar in size to Norwood crowd in 2000, so you can't say support for this concept is growing in Darwin!!!!

[therisingblues]

Tassie, don't forget that it was only a trial game. A representative NTFL side playing in the SANFL for points would definitely attract a lot larger crowd. Sometimes they would get more than 5000, and this would hopefully offset the times they get less than 5000.
I also view their involvement as something that would grow on the populace, especially after they begin to taste success.
Either way I'll be waiting on the SANFL's decision on this. They are a real cautious bunch, if they say it can be done then the risks would have to be minimal

[doggies4eva]

I rest my case,

If the SANFL has to chip in for a once off, how much are they going to have to chip in come mid season when the NT team has no chance of making the finals and they are playing one of the less well supported SANFL teams (based on current membership you could argue - us!!!)

Doggies admire you passion for the arguement but it is a nobrainer, it aint going to happen especially once the NT public realise they are paying $5 more than the SANFL supporters in Adelaide.....

And knowing the set up of the NTAFL and their sponsorship sources, accommodation sponsorship would have been reasonably substantial from the casino.....

Got to admire the Robbo's spin on widespread support when it is one of the poorest crowds they have got their for a rep game.....very similar in size to Norwood crowd in 2000, so you can't say support for this concept is growing in Darwin!!!!

Tassie - your case is underwhelming - your logic is suspect and your maths deplorable - no wonder you used to be an umpire

First of all the crowd was about 4,500 - what is the average crowd of the SANFL? Thats right less.

Secondly it was effectively a one-off - like a state game- which tends to have less passion that a regular club game and thus suffers somewhat for attendances - ie combined SANFL weekly crowds are always higher than state game crowds. Crowds follow clubs.

Thirdly Sponsorship would be more easily obtained for say a 9 game home season particularly if there was going to be TV coverage for away games - more exposure - sponsors pay more.

If you haven't been reading my comments on this and other threads I'll repeat it - GATE RECEIPTS ARE NOT THE MAJOR SOURCE OF REVENUE. For this one off game they were significant because long term sponsorships wre not in place.

And why would they have no chnace of making the finals? Add a few few key position players, a good gym and fitness program and a team that trains together enough to develop set plays that SANFL teams take for granted and they will be tough to beat. They'd probably beat Glenelg now.

[am Bays]

Look Doggies, Mate, I could right a 50 page discussion paper on why the NT team will not be successful and why it will not get off the ground.

It is very hard to say in 1/2 a page why it will not happen, which is why my maths and arguement may appear flawed, because I am skimming over the issues that need very thoughfull planning and discussion.

Given that this proposal was first seriously discussed in 1997, and earmarked for the 2000 season originally, do you not think the powers that be over the past 10 years have not hit several major **** brickwalls (sponsorship, travel, player recruiting and player development) as to why it is not up and running!!??

I have neither the time nor the inclination to right rebut all your "arguements" suffice to say my claims are based on

1: Working at the NTIS institute of Sport in particular the football squad, so I know what talent is coming through (i.e who is liable to form the basis of this team) and the training ethic of NT footballers, trust me the mean training ethic / dedication of the NT footballer is SANFL u/17 at best. If you got the work ethic you aint going to get fit or develop your skills to a sufficeint standard, hence why your saw the NT team continuously turning the ball over against North and mising goals from 25 m. That has been occuring in NT football since 1917 when the comp started!!

As a test of your knowledge of NT footy can you name the three original teams in the comp?

2. Being on a first name basis with virtually every one in the NTAFL office, (apart from the new CEO). I know their structures, their budgets, their revenue streams. The biggest complaint the former CEO had about the comp is they just aren't professional, they are too insular about protecting their own clubs. Do you think Vic Ludwig even though he is no longer St Mary's president Adrian moschini is, going to let St Mary's power in the NTAFL be usurped by a composite taking their players???? That is a small example to demonstrate the overall picture that the culture of the NTFL clubs with repsect to NTAFL is that they don't want to see their power being dimished and their own self interests being affected by the NTAFL. Individual clubs in all sports can not see the bigger picture just their own insular world. Not that I ageee with their arguement but NT sport is very parochial and self centred far more than what you get in Adelaide.

3 Having played, umpired and watched footy up there since 1984, Once agin this has exposed me to insular nature of the clubs and the difficulties the sport has have had promoting itself against the other footy codes soccer, Rugby and Rugby League. In Adelaide Australian Football has only one real rival in terms of football codes, soccer. Darwin is like Sydney, Soccer, football, Rugby and Rugby League are all competing for the sponsorship and spectator dollar. Do I need to go into the difficulties Sydney have had in cracking a competitive market. yes I know darwin is not Sydney but the issue of a competitive market is similar in Darwin as it is in Sydney, far more so than the competition for sponsorship, players,supporters in Adelaide. I'm sure you agree the potential overall market in Aelaide is bigger than the Darwin market.

How do I know this two prospective members of the "future" NT SANFL team left the AFL program and switched to the league program, one of them is a cousin (in Aboriginal terms) to Andrew McLoed, so he has a bit of football ability!!! However the kid is a loose cannon so he probably won;t make it to the "top" anyway.

So you see my comments are based on actual experience living, palying, working and developing NT footballers and NT Sportsmen. I know all the pitfalls and issues teams/clubs/palyers and sports in the NT have to overcome to be successful.

Your point about crowd figures over a season crowd figures go down not up, See Adelaides crowds in their first season, 46 000 against Hawthorn, 30 000 last game againt North. As it will be the NT teams first season you can expect a similar trend. Port, Freo. West Coast all had similar trends in their FIRST seasons too. The fact that Darwin can bearly get 6 000 people to a test match what odds have they go getting 6000 to a SANFl match.......

As Wedgie said the game was heavily promoted and interest was high for a one off, have they got the coin to do that for a whole season....???

At best on a good day, when I swimming in a vat of beer, with naked nubile nymphettes, I can see the NT team getting off the ground for a couple of seasons, but as long as my sphincter points south an NT composite team in the SANFL will not last!!!

[therisingblues]

Tassie, while you have a lot of knowledge about NT footy, your application of that knowledge to the current situation is sometimes inconsistent. The Adelaide Crows got larger crowds in their first year compared to now because at that time Adelaide was a one team town. You cannot compare the eras without including the facts.
Adelaide's trial games were not sellouts, once the season proper began the Crows bandwaggon escalated.
You made mention of a seemingly lazy attitude up North, your description of the system shows that they should be doing better. If they introduced an NT team to the SANFL the system wouldn't be the same, you'd be exchanging the dud methods of doing things now with a new standard that everybody would be expected to meet. If anything this is a good reason for the NT to drop what they are doing and go into the new proposal. What better way for them to compete with all those other sports up there.
Also, Adelaide's pre-AFL culture was extremely anti-Vic, anti-VFL expansion and very protective of the existing SANFL. Polls conducted in the Advertiser showed overwhelming opposition to our involvment amongst the average footy fan, many people wrote extra comments on the questionnaire along the lines of "NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES! I WILL NOT SUPPORT OUR TEAM IN THE AFL!" There has never been been a more staunchly opposed invitation to the AFL than the Adelaide proposal, yet in terms of that competition the Crows are still one of the healthiest teams.
You still haven't answered the question on how Darwin's future team could only count on a 70% supporter base from the Darwin population , compared to 100% figure you somewhere dug up for each of the SANFL teams in Adelaide.

[Dogmatic]

If the Advertiser gave as much publicity to the SANFL as the NT papers gave to the recent match in Darwin the crowd numbers would increase dramatically.

[doggies4eva]

OK Tassie I'll take the bait.

1. Not enough talent??? Oh yeah, well how come there are so many NT players going straight into the AFL, let alone the ones that are going to SANFL clubs? Put all of these players together and it would be more than competitive in the SANFL. Plus they only lost by 4 goals to North in what was basically the first time the NT player had played as a team. If North beat anyone this year by more than 4 goals I will be expecting you to call for their disenfranchisement as they won't be competitive. Point taken about dedication and skill level. I see this as a positive - a lot more upside possible with a good coach and structure.

2. I agree with you. This is the big question - can clubs put aside their parochial view for the good of the game? This is often the big stumbling block in any sporting comp. But at grass roots level there is a lot of support - given that the Crows still happened despite significant opposition, I remain optimistic.

3. Yeah Rugby is well represented up here. That's a reason for the AFL to invest up here to remain competitive! Your anecdote about the player leaving to play another code supports my arguement rather than yours! Perhaps he would't have gone if there was more opportunity to advance - a local SANFL team would be a higher step that he could not achieve in a rugby code without going interstate.

You'd better go back to your swimming program. Maybe the nymphettes can put you straight

[Dogsbody]

It would be interesting to see how they work with the ABC on this one.

They'd probably show every away NT game live into Darwin from Adelaide and then have the normal Match of the Round for SA viewers.

[Apachebulldog]

Spot on Dogger it will never happen they can talk all they want ITS PIE IN THE SKY IN OTHER WORDS A LOAD OF CODS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is the money coming from, attendances are declining every year, is the NTfl team and all the hanger ons going to be camped at Adelaide Oval for the year to save on travelling and accommodation costs ???? its all money money money the SANFL does not give a stuff about the local comp all the money is in the AFL my friends !!!

Within twenty years we will be down to an eight or even a six team comp !!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF !!!!!