NORTH V STURT ROUND 6

[BPBRB]

Good valid points there smac but I guess our views on Jars are from different angles. No doubt the spotlight is on him well and truly based on the expectation of where North should or could finish and at the end of the day that may be the defining factor as to whether he continues as North coach beyond 2007. Rick is still yet to prove himself over any reasonable period but he has a good background, is spoken of highly at all clubs he has been at and has started well. Time will tell in both cases.

Good to see you stopped the "seeping" ( whoops re my orignal spelling)

[doggies4eva]

Interesting discussion about Jarman and his coaching style.

No doubt he is entertaining.

The question is "Is the SANFL sport or entertainment?".

Some sports have decided that they are entertainment - take the NBL - you get music, dancing girls, competitions, half time entertainment in fact non-stop entertainment.

The AFL given that most of its revenue comes from the media or sponsorship should be in the business of entertainment but it is confused. Many of the coaches think that they are in the business of sport and will do anything for a win ie flooding becomes a major tactic. Boring but effective.

My conclusion: Jars would be better suited as an AFL coach.

[topsywaldron]

The question is "Is the SANFL sport or entertainment?".

As a Norwood fan I say the answer is...neither.

[sturt1]

I think this game will be as much about who can out coach who. McGowan v jarman will go a long way to who wins this game.

If it were that simple, Jarman is buggered - but it's not that simple. Sturts main focus should be now on maintaining the level they have achieved. If they are still focussing on improvement then they may falter - consolidation of lessons already learnt is required over the next 8-10 games, then look at progressing to the next level.

Seeping statement there smac - given MacGowan has coached 3 wins - 2 against last years bottom side, another against a non finalist from last year and one against a top 3 contender in Port, where in reality Port should have wrapped up after their lead in the last quarter. Don't forget Sturt also suffered a 50 point loss to another non finalist from last year which on the day given the atrocious conditions was like a 100 point flogging.

Jarman took a side from bottom with 1 win to the finals and has maintained and increased slightly our position as a top 3 contender and has North at a point where [b]they could take the next step and make a GF if all goes well and with a bit of luck[/b]. You can't say Jars has been all luck and just point to the talent he has and recruiting etc. He has been able to harness that talent, motivate and gel the team and the results have happened although we have fallen short or choked (however people want to interpret our finals form).

He might be a joker at times and play upto the media but he is a good thinker about the game, good tactically and he has the respect of the players importantly and they enjoy playing for him - more so than many North coaches in the past including Nunan. He is a good tactician although reckless at times, backing North in on out shooting the opposition rather than defending as much. IMO that has changed this year and his coaching so far has been the best since he has been at North although our start hasn't been as rapid or flowing like previous years. His coaching effort/tatics last Friday night were brillant given the situation pre-game having an undersized and inexperienced defense then having to move Schubert into ruck to weaken it more when the interchange debacle happened.

Putting MacGowan ahead of him of re coaching ability currently is a very bold statement when Rick has no runs on the board so to speak given it is so early in his senior coaching career .

This was achieved after some extensive recruiting particularly from interstate and success was not achieved immidiately. McGowan certainly has not been given the recruits with the same rep as what jarman had at north in his first season. I wonder if jarman had to work on young sanfl players and getting big name players was not an option whether north would be in as good a position as it now with its win loss ratio since jars got there. Lets not forget another thing he still has not taken north to a grand final. So I will agree comparing the 2 coaches is totally different. 2 totally different situations, cultures, etc etc etc that they both found themselves as coaches. I am sure saturday will be one of many big games that will involve these 2 clubs under these 2 masterminds.

[doggies4eva]

But you guys are comparing one coach at the start of his senior career with another at the end of his

[rod_rooster]

McGowan certainly has not been given the recruits with the same rep as what jarman had at north in his first season.

Jars wasn't given the recruits, he got them.

[doggies4eva]

McGowan certainly has not been given the recruits with the same rep as what jarman had at north in his first season.

Jars wasn't given the recruits, he got them.

Really? But Rick can't go out and recruit big name players because of the financial plight of SFC

[BPBRB]

McGowan certainly has not been given the recruits with the same rep as what jarman had at north in his first season.

Jars wasn't given the recruits, he got them.

Fair point sturt1 - but go back to North's list in 2004 - the recruits were Roe (unknown), Hueskes (most people wrote him off), veterans in MacGowan (ironic!) who struggled for most of the year & Jeffries, Motlop back from the AFL and Wakelin - a Centrals discarded ruckman playing amatuers. We we were lucky having AFL listed big men in Hudson & White all year and Perrie a couple of times that year. We hardly spent too much on getting then although you could argue that some had good reps. We were just starting to pull out of a bad financial position and we only used 75 percent of our total salary cap that year.

We didn't really recruit to many more in 2005 apart from Nick Gill who we signed when he was playing full back for Port Melb's VFL Reserves team so he was an unknown that happened to work out, Joel Campbell a delisted Melb rookie list player - who happened to bring down his little brother! and Coulter and Krieg who were regarded as fringe league players if you listen to Central supporters. So again hardly call those signings as having any reps at that time nor did we spend up big again. Again that year we were relying on AFL listed players KPP in White, Hudson and Perrie. We did lose Heuskes to injury early that year after he limped through half of 2004 and Motlop went to Melbourne to replace Troy Broadbridge so i wouldn't say we were nay better off in the end come the start of 2005.

2006 was a different situation altogether, we were aggresive with our recruiting and spent reasonably big. Our recruiting last year would have looked even better (and no doubt our defensive game plan would have been better too) if we didn't lose all 3 of our first choice defenders in the AFL pre-season draft in Roe, Gillam and Hunt who had all signed subject to the draft.

Everyone see's things differently depending on what side of the arguement they are coming from.

[therisingblues]

Should be an absoloute cracker this one. I still believe Sturt are yet to indicate their true level this year, and this Saturday will reveal a little about how often we can draw on the intensity we showed for the first three games of the year, when it comes down to a big game. This is a huge game for the SFC given the start we have had. Our early season form wouold indicate that we are capable of shooting for a top three, and that's the area most people expect north to finish up, so as a season shaper, this game could carry big consequences for later in the year. The truth is though, that most of us believe that Sturt cannot maintain the form they showed earlier, most realistic ladder predictions still have them somewhere on the bottom four rungs. That's a huge variation in fortunes, and that's how important I see this game. We have had the good start, almost everyone has seen what we are capable of, I don't think there are any surprises left, except that if we keep winning the big games from here, then it is the real thing beginning to assert itself.
Having Whiteman out is going to be a bit of a worry, as I think his desperation sums up our performances best so far. I hope the team can lift as a whole to cover for his solid presence of willpower, and rise again to what should be a blockbuster. The Blues can win this, but as long as they give it their all, and fight it out no matter what happens on the scoreboard, I will be happy regardless of what else happens.
Go You Blues!

[RoosterMarty]

Sturt beat West, Glenelg and Port and then get flogged by Norwood and that form is top 3 material??

[Aerie]

Sturt beat West, Glenelg and Port and then get flogged by Norwood and that form is top 3 material??

Yes it is. The proof is here: http://www.sanfl.com.au/?s=ladder

[heater31]

Sturt beat West, Glenelg and Port and then get flogged by Norwood and that form is top 3 material??

You blokes haven't set the world on fire either yet. Should be a cracker and since I will be chasing jumpers on an oval somwhere I shall be setting the tape for this one

[MST]

Sturt beat West, Glenelg and Port and then get flogged by Norwood and that form is top 3 material??

'Shooting for the top three' as theri suggested, and 'Top 3 material' as you have misquoted are two very different things Marty.

Read the whole post before you jump down his throat.

By the way, will you be getting up early on the 24th to watch the UCL Final??

[therisingblues]

Sturt beat West, Glenelg and Port and then get flogged by Norwood and that form is top 3 material??

Well we are sitting third at the moment, and one of the teams we beat is just ahead of us in second. But I was talking about the final ladder positions, and not the present ones, so I take your point. But I also made it pretty clear that "most realistic ladder predictions" have us occupying one of the bottom four rungs by the year's end. There are a wide range of possibilites I am alluding to in my post, but they will most likely be narrowed down after Saturday.

[-]

I think this game will be as much about who can out coach who. McGowan v jarman will go a long way to who wins this game.

If it were that simple, Jarman is buggered - but it's not that simple. Sturts main focus should be now on maintaining the level they have achieved. If they are still focussing on improvement then they may falter - consolidation of lessons already learnt is required over the next 8-10 games, then look at progressing to the next level.

Seeping statement there smac - given MacGowan has coached 3 wins - 2 against last years bottom side, another against a non finalist from last year and one against a top 3 contender in Port, where in reality Port should have wrapped up after their lead in the last quarter. Don't forget Sturt also suffered a 50 point loss to another non finalist from last year which on the day given the atrocious conditions was like a 100 point flogging.

Jarman took a side from bottom with 1 win to the finals and has maintained and increased slightly our position as a top 3 contender and has North at a point where they could take the next step and make a GF if all goes well and with a bit of luck. You can't say Jars has been all luck and just point to the talent he has and recruiting etc. He has been able to harness that talent, motivate and gel the team and the results have happened although we have fallen short or choked (however people want to interpret our finals form).

He might be a joker at times and play upto the media but he is a good thinker about the game, good tactically and he has the respect of the players importantly and they enjoy playing for him - more so than many North coaches in the past including Nunan. He is a good tactician although reckless at times, backing North in on out shooting the opposition rather than defending as much. IMO that has changed this year and his coaching so far has been the best since he has been at North although our start hasn't been as rapid or flowing like previous years. His coaching effort/tatics last Friday night were brillant given the situation pre-game having an undersized and inexperienced defense then having to move Schubert into ruck to weaken it more when the interchange debacle happened.

Putting MacGowan ahead of him of re coaching ability currently is a very bold statement when Rick has no runs on the board so to speak given it is so early in his senior coaching career .

Firstly, I never said Jars was bad – only that Rick was better as a coach. I am not basing my thoughts on game day results as Rick has too few of these to be worth much (as you rightly pointed out). More on game day performances – admittedly, a lot of this I have seen with Rick as an assistant, not a head coach.

I played footy with Rick many years ago and even then his ability to pass things on to others was amazing. I have watched him closely since then and have seen him coach at a few levels – from under 8’s at Golden Grove (wasn’t the coach but spent a lot of time with his nephew) to assistant at North and WWT to head coach at Sturt. This skill of his has only developed further.

I have spent some time watching all of the league coaches and have done so for a number of years – something I enjoy doing as it helps me with my own coaching. Obviously this means I have spent some time watching how Jars coaches his side. His research appears limited and his approach to the playing group and in particular his assistants (IMHO) too autocratic. I believe this cost him the services of Rick a few years ago. This is a personality issue, quite difficult to change (although that is possible over a long period of time). Most would agree that personality issues can be quite damaging to a playing group.

I think your point regarding choking/falling short is possibly the most valid. Continuing to promote a game plan at the club that is consistently less successful in finals footy is one of his bigger shortcomings. The continued recruiting of players who play fast, exciting footy, almost at the expense of others, magnifies this (disclaimer – haven’t paid any attention to North’s recruiting this season, this point may have changed). Admittedly, there has been some bad luck with injuries which could change my perception of the recruiting.

Unlike many others, I think his character is one of his strongest points. If he has the squad disciplined, it is better the coach is being a public clown than someone from the playing group as he can control what he says in the media (Jason Akermanis is a perfect example of this in the AFL – out of control!).

I have said for the past couple of years that Jars has done an exceptional job to revive North on the field but he should pass over the reigns to someone else to ensure North take the next step (Alan Stewart at Centrals is my usual example when I say this).

I have not the time to go further into things, but my opinion having seen plenty of both of them is that Rick is a better coach.

See – it wasn’t a seeping (sic) statement at all.

You make some good points there smac.

[-]

McGowan certainly has not been given the recruits with the same rep as what jarman had at north in his first season.

Jars wasn't given the recruits, he got them.

Fair point sturt1 - but go back to North's list in 2004 - the recruits were Roe (unknown), Hueskes (most people wrote him off), veterans in MacGowan (ironic!) who struggled for most of the year & Jeffries, Motlop back from the AFL and Wakelin - a Centrals discarded ruckman playing amatuers. We we were lucky having AFL listed big men in Hudson & White all year and Perrie a couple of times that year. We hardly spent too much on getting then although you could argue that some had good reps. We were just starting to pull out of a bad financial position and we only used 75 percent of our total salary cap that year.

We didn't really recruit to many more in 2005 apart from Nick Gill who we signed when he was playing full back for Port Melb's VFL Reserves team so he was an unknown that happened to work out, Joel Campbell a delisted Melb rookie list player - who happened to bring down his little brother! and Coulter and Krieg who were regarded as fringe league players if you listen to Central supporters. So again hardly call those signings as having any reps at that time nor did we spend up big again. Again that year we were relying on AFL listed players KPP in White, Hudson and Perrie. We did lose Heuskes to injury early that year after he limped through half of 2004 and Motlop went to Melbourne to replace Troy Broadbridge so i wouldn't say we were nay better off in the end come the start of 2005.

2006 was a different situation altogether, we were aggresive with our recruiting and spent reasonably big. Our recruiting last year would have looked even better (and no doubt our defensive game plan would have been better too) if we didn't lose all 3 of our first choice defenders in the AFL pre-season draft in Roe, Gillam and Hunt who had all signed subject to the draft.

Everyone see's things differently depending on what side of the arguement they are coming from.

The Motlop thing in was unlucky but we wouldnt have gone top anyway.

2006 was bad luck. Roe, Gilham and Hunt to all fall through the way they did was incredibly unlucky. Heaps of injuries hurt us right throughout the year including finals and we still only fell short in the prelim by 7 points. Last year was our big chance especially seeing there was no standout side as distinct from 03, 04 and 05.

[RoosterMarty]

Sturt beat West, Glenelg and Port and then get flogged by Norwood and that form is top 3 material??

'Shooting for the top three' as theri suggested, and 'Top 3 material' as you have misquoted are two very different things Marty.

Read the whole post before you jump down his throat.

By the way, will you be getting up early on the 24th to watch the UCL Final??

Yes I will get up to watch Milan hopefully win.

Will you be watching Man Utd vs West Ham this week to see a team lift one of those 'Premier League Title' things?

[Wedgie]

Yes I will get up to watch Milan hopefully win.

Will you be watching Man Utd vs West Ham this week to see a team lift one of those 'Premier League Title' things?

That's enough gay talk in a man's forum lads.

Anyone hear the latest on Gummy, I hope he doesn't line up, good player.

[heater31]

Anyone hear the latest on Gummy, I hope he doesn't line up, good player.

a possibility to return along with Eckers

[Wedgie]

No change to last week's team, hopefully both ruckman play this week so we can have Schubert on Chambers, if we'd play only 19 like we did against Norwood then Sturt would flog us:

F Pfeiffer Weatherley Krieg
HF S.Motlop Alleway Sporn
C Ryswyk Ladhams Bamford
HB J.Campbell Gallman Younie
B Ivens Schubert Cubillo

Ruck Wakelin Howard Allan

Interchange O'Hara Cunningham Martin