Question - without notice

[Booney]

Politics has never really "grabbed me" to the extent that many of you good folk in here seem to have. Being the cynic that I am I figure some monkey is going to lead us and the singular vote of little old me doesn't really count for much at all. I also believe as long as I do the right thing, work hard and earn a living I'll look after number 1 and I'll be ok thanks Jack.

I also see that the two major parties in Australia, in my voting life at least, have been so close on policy and had no real stand out leader that captured my imagination as someone who could lead the country as I would like.

Having said that, I rarely get upset by any political policy or personality as I figure they're all lying bastards in a job that for them is a job and nothing more. Serving the people my arse. Lining the pocket with a big pension is what they're doing. ( Theres the cynic )

So, how do you passionate political people see the likes of me who simply floats along from election to election and decides pretty much on the day who I am voting for?

For mine the bulk of Australians feel like I do and accordingly I would like to vote more directly at the top level and less at a local level as I dont think I have ever met my local MP. I bump into Jay Weatherall from time to time at the park which we both live near but I'm walking the dogs and he is playing with his kids, hardly a time to talk shop.

So, how do you people see us bystanders who just let it roll on by?

And, do you truly feel as though your vote and political persuasions make a difference for the good of all?

[CK]

I see people like yourself as being very important to the political process and particularly election day, because you are just the demographic that the parties are targetting with their advertising campaigns - the undecided, swinging* voter who is still making up their mind.

Campaigns are largely wasted on people like me who already have their vote decided most elections and the same party each time, barring any major catastrophe. That said, I still believe that the votes of people like me do make a difference, particuarly if we suddenly changed our minds en masse and were crucial to a change of government.

I follow politics very closely, albeit not the extent of some of the learned posters here like Southee, Leaping Lindner, Redandblack, Soujourner, Dedja, Psyber, Gozu, Ian and many others that I have neglected to name, and am quite passionate about it, but that shouldn't mean for one second that people who don't follow it as closely should ever feel they somehow count for less.

[redandblack]

What a good question, Booney and good reply, CK.

We're all different, of course, and our backgrounds often explain our political preferences.

To answer your question, although, like CK, I'm fairly firmly committed, I respect all those who arrive at a decision, whatever it is, if they do so with the right motives. I have to say I don't have much respect for extremists of either side, or those of either side who just parrot media lines (surprise ).

Perhaps Psyber and I are a little different in that we've seen far more political change over the years, so I know where he's coming from a lot of the time. Politics used to be different and reported differently. I'm not sure I agree with some of what you think about all politicians, mate, but I'd strongly suspect you cast an informed vote, which makes you totally important in the scheme of things.

I'd like to think we're all equal. Being committed doesn't, IMO, make anyone less important and I obviously think the views of committed people is that we're often not willing to change our mind on anything or admit defeat on anything. That's where this forum is valuable in overcoming that sensitivity.

I've got to go to City Mazda now, but great topic and I'll say more later.

[Booney]

I forgot to add, is the left and right closer now that it ever has been?

[redandblack]

Still here, definitely yes.

Both have moved a lot to the right.

[Sky Pilot]

Still here, definitely yes.

Both have moved a lot to the right.

Is that an opinion or a fact? Any evidence?

[Squawk]

My view is pretty simple:

Compulsory voting is the best part of our democracy because it means that all persons of voting age have an unfettered 'right' to comment, complain or praise politicians and their decisions (or non-decisions).

It's definitely hard to believe that one vote counts on its own, but sometimes it does because results are occassionally very close indeed.

Left and Right have definitely closed the gap in recent years.

For me, my frustration is that too much time is spent by politicians, governing politics itself and not policy. Decisions are too often made on the basis of political expediency, not on sound policy grounds.

The perceptions of the public, (which often match those that you've described having yourself), are typically fanned by tabloid media. It's much better to draw a personal conclusion by taking note of more objective media programs, notably ABC and SBS TV and radio. The problem there is that the focus is typically on Federal govt, with less emphasis on state govt and very little on council affairs.

[redandblack]

That's spot on, S.

Sky Pilot, it's both.

It's my opinion, based on following politics closely for most of my life.

I'm very confident that it's also factual and I'm happy to start a new thread later and explain why it's so.

[Gozu]

Still here, definitely yes.

Both have moved a lot to the right.

Is that an opinion or a fact? Any evidence?

I'd suggest it's fact, look at how right-wing the Labor Party are now? The ALP used to be called a left-wing party. Federal Labor are doing some things now not even the Howard Libs did (Malaysian solution, harsher welfare "reforms", proposing citizen's assemblies to deal with climate change etc) and I'm sure plenty of people consider the SA Libs to the Left of the Rann government (going after the PS, in bed with Big Business inc privatisation, reducing public housing for their Big Developer mates, macho Laura Norder crap etc). It's been a deliberate strategy by both federal & state Labor to slither up alongside the Liberal Party hence why we see the ALP's left vote bleeding to the Greens, who are the only party of the three who can legitimately claim to be a left-wing party.

[Psyber]

Still here, definitely yes.
Both have moved a lot to the right.

I'd agree with R&Bs comments above.

In the days of Bob Menzies and Arthur Caldwell as the respective leaders there was a more obvious distance between the parties in some ways, and yet they were both somewhat "left" of either party since the mid to late 1980s when the lurch to the right took place. Although Bob Menzies was a Monarchist to his core, and even announced our new coinage would be called the "Royal" before he had to back down and call it the Dollar in the face of the outcry, he was in other ways relatively small "l" liberal. So was Malcolm Fraser as PM, though he was under pressure from others in the Cabinet like a young John Howard.
[It has showed more in his comments since he got out of politics.]

I used to be like Booney, and I had a tendency to vote for a "Better Education" candidate or perhaps the "Country Party" - before it became the National Party during the general lurch right.
The first time I gave a first preference to a major party was in 1972, for Gough Whitlam and the ALP.
I did it again in 1974, then in 1975 voted Liberal for the first time in my life.

It was the lurch right during the 1980s that concerned me enough to make me consider joining a political party in the 1990s, and I joined the Liberal Party because I thought a dissident member was more likely to have any influence there, than in the ALP which was more driven and controlled by its factional machinery.

[redandblack]

Psyber, allowing for the ALP factions, which aren't hidden, would you like to expand on the Liberal Party factions?

I'm pretty much up with the Federal factions, but I'd value your insight on the State factions, especially as the Liberal Party here was (still is?) at war due to factional differences.

Although I obviously disagree with you about the Libs not having factions, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts here.

[dedja]

Psyber's best to comment on this, but the SA State Liberal party seems to be governed, not by the equivalent of Labor's factions, but by the intense and extreme family battles that are working through a second generation.

The likes of Wilson, Goldsworthy, Evans, Hall, Chapman, etc, etc ... this to the untrained eye seems to be the way the Liberals are governed and operate.

But, I could very well be wrong ...

[Psyber]

Psyber, allowing for the ALP factions, which aren't hidden, would you like to expand on the Liberal Party factions?
I'm pretty much up with the Federal factions, but I'd value your insight on the State factions, especially as the Liberal Party here was (still is?) t war due to factional differences.
Although I obviously disagree with you about the Libs not having factions, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts here.

My direct experience is only of the branches I have been a member of - three in all - plus some experience from attending functions at other branches.
At a branch level factions are not all that obvious, and I've been elected to the local committee despite my openly challenging some policies.

My experience is that Liberal Party "factions" are not really organised, but more like groups of "mates" who share views and back each other up.
Sometimes this involves family loyalties or friendships, but there has to be a commonality of similar ideas to hold it together.
None of these groups of friends or families have any structures that that potentially give them block votes to wield.

To get their way they have to persuade a majority of the local branch members to back them as representatives or candidates.
Obviously, if they are of a popular local family, and have grown up involved in the party in that area and are liked there is some advantage.
Once pre-selected candidates get to be MPs they can be dis-endorsed at the next pre-selection ballot by branch members.
[ I remember that happened to Stan Evans once, years ago, but he then won the seat as an Independent.]

The issue that made me choose the Liberal Party was my awareness of this internal democratic structure which meant you could express an opinion without being ejected.
The members of the party branches in a given electorate get to choose directly their representatives to state conferences, and there are usually several nominees.
Also, the membership in that electorate gets to vote on the pre-selection of candidates for their area and no one who is not a member of those branches in the area gets a vote.
Branch stacking allegations surface from time to time in the press, but "strangers" suddenly appearing on the books are rare.
When I joined the local branch several people discreetly checked I actually lived in the area.

[Q.]

Still here, definitely yes.

Both have moved a lot to the right.

Is that an opinion or a fact? Any evidence?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2010

[Sojourner]

From reading this forum Gozu has actually pretty much convinced me that the Greens are not so much as extreme left wing as that the ALP have actually tanked heavily to the right making that appear to be so, so in answer to your question, yes I do think that there is little between the Labor and the Liberals any more in terms of Right and Left wing. I would suggest that the Rann Labor Government is more right wing than Liberals have been in the past,

As for your original question, I think its better to be able to "decide on the day" than to be "rusted on" to a particular party and give them the automatic 30% that they count on when an election is called, if more people unrusted themselves democracy would likely get a better outcome.

My only suggestion is to consider not voting for Labor or Liberal as your first choice and simply picking another party or independent in no 1 place then preferencing your vote to your preferred option of Labor or Liberal. In the upper house again, picking someone like Xenephon or Hanson-Young at least makes the the two parties have to compromise and stops their respective executives having total power. I think we will be far better off when there are three, four or even five major parties that have to form coalitions to govern, yet its the rusted on voters that keep this from happening!

[Q.]

To answer your question Booney, politics for me is the pursuit of a better world.

Politics is the coffee we drink, the clothes we wear, the people we love and the life we live.

You can say you just float along, but there is politics behind every choice you make. Everybody makes some sort of impact, whether you realise it or not.

[redandblack]

I agree totally with that, Quichey.

Sojourner, I don't agree with your statement about being better to decide on the day, rather than be rusted on. The majority of people are rusted on, although the numbers are decreasing. It's a fact of Australian politics that more people are rusted on conservatives than Labor supporters. I'd subdivide that rusted on population into 'habit' voters and 'philosophical' voters.

To many, including me, it's a definite knowledge that, generally speaking, one party's philosophies are more in keeping with your personal philosophies and you'll forgive their weaknesses because you just don't believe in the alternate philosophy. As Quichey says, it's part of your personal philosophy and choices in life.

The weakness of party politics is that it becomes a winner-take-all game where currently compassion is out and pragmatism is in. The Whitlam years were the opposite and, although it only lasted three years, this country is much the greater for it. They self-destructed and so be it, but it was bloody exciting and advanced this country gretaly. It was the same with the Dunstan years in SA, the only time in my memory that SA was envied by other states.

I'm sure many would disagree with the last paragraph, but those leaders changed this country and this state for the better.

[Sojourner]

Fair enough R&B! - Totally agree with Dunstan in SA, he rolled out a number of infrastructure projects that got this state up and moving, infrastructure investment has declined rapidly ever since! - Interestingly his last move was to green light the Tram Extension to Tea Tree Plaza and the building began on the entry point on dequetiville terrace where the underpass was built, Labor lost the election and the incoming gov canned the project leaving the underpass to nowhere, eventually the O'Bahn concept was made. Considering the current focus on Trams and the fact that everywhere they go Real Estate Values skyrocket, it appears yet again even now that he was very much ahead of his time with his vision for this State!

[Booney]

To answer your question Booney, politics for me is the pursuit of a better world.

Politics is the coffee we drink, the clothes we wear, the people we love and the life we live.

You can say you just float along, but there is politics behind every choice you make. Everybody makes some sort of impact, whether you realise it or not.

Do you think there is more people like me, or you?

[Q.]

To answer your question Booney, politics for me is the pursuit of a better world.

Politics is the coffee we drink, the clothes we wear, the people we love and the life we live.

You can say you just float along, but there is politics behind every choice you make. Everybody makes some sort of impact, whether you realise it or not.

Do you think there is more people like me, or you?

I'd be in the minority.