Convoy of No Confidence

[Sojourner]

In the last couple of years Australia has spent millions of dollars improving conditions of slaughterhouses in Indonesia, installing the latest equipment and training their workers.

That may be so but clearly it hasn't worked when you consider the extreme cruelty in the recent footage from Indonesia.

Question for you Fish, First off I agree that no animals should ever be shipped to places where they are subject to animal cruelty, Yet in Australia, animals that are slaughtered for Halal or Kosher purposes are not stunned prior to being slaughtered and die in much pain as a result. How is it ok to for Australian slaughterhouses to kill animals Halal or Kosher without Stunning? Are we not as bad as Indonesia whilst we allow it to continue?

[Psyber]

In the last couple of years Australia has spent millions of dollars improving conditions of slaughterhouses in Indonesia, installing the latest equipment and training their workers.

That may be so but clearly it hasn't worked when you consider the extreme cruelty in the recent footage from Indonesia.

Question for you Fish, First off I agree that no animals should ever be shipped to places where they are subject to animal cruelty, Yet in Australia, animals that are slaughtered for Halal or Kosher purposes are not stunned prior to being slaughtered and die in much pain as a result. How is it ok to for Australian slaughterhouses to kill animals Halal or Kosher without Stunning? Are we not as bad as Indonesia whilst we allow it to continue?

It isn't, and we are!
We should draw the line, and stop being hypocritical.

[Q.]

Halal done properly is painless for the animal.

[Psyber]

Halal done properly is painless for the animal.

Fair enough if it is painless done properly.
What is involved in the method to ensure it is painless?
What deviations make it not painless?

Most people seem to be concerned about the idea of an animal having its throat cut when it is conscious.
That gets us into the debate about whether animals are aware of what is happening when they are not stunned first.

[Q.]

I couldn't tell you the physiologics of the method, I'm just repeating what I've been told/read.

Mistakes happen I guess. Same goes in local abbatoirs. A couple of my good mates have worked in abbatoirs and I've been told many a gruesome story.

[Sojourner]

Halal done properly is painless for the animal.

Sorry Quinchy, that it total and utter Bullhsit mate, The RSPCA and the Animal Welfare League both disagree, if an animal is stunned then yes it would be, however once an animal is stunned then it is not considered Halal or Kosher. The animals throat is cut without any pain relief and it bleeds to death over several minutes, its not even remotley humane treatment of an animal and its all 100% legal in Australia....

[Q.]

I'm probably desensitised to it all. I celebrated Eid al-Adha with Muslims when I was in North Africa. The streets ran red with blood.

[fish]

In the last couple of years Australia has spent millions of dollars improving conditions of slaughterhouses in Indonesia, installing the latest equipment and training their workers.

That may be so but clearly it hasn't worked when you consider the extreme cruelty in the recent footage from Indonesia.

Question for you Fish, First off I agree that no animals should ever be shipped to places where they are subject to animal cruelty, Yet in Australia, animals that are slaughtered for Halal or Kosher purposes are not stunned prior to being slaughtered and die in much pain as a result. How is it ok to for Australian slaughterhouses to kill animals Halal or Kosher without Stunning? Are we not as bad as Indonesia whilst we allow it to continue?

It isn't, and we are!

What Psyber said.

[Q.]

What about the inherent cruelty that exists with intensive animal farming practices in Australia?

[RustyCage]

What about the inherent cruelty that exists with intensive animal farming practices in Australia?

How do we get around that one?

[Q.]

I have too many conflictions to come up with any solutions. I just see a certain amount of hypocrisy regarding banning live exports and apparently cruel practices.

[RustyCage]

I have too many conflictions to come up with any solutions. I just see a certain amount of hypocrisy regarding banning live exports and apparently cruel practices.

I think banning live exports would harm to all parties involved, both human and animal

[Ian]

Halal done properly is painless for the animal.

Sorry Quinchy, that it total and utter Bullhsit mate, The RSPCA and the Animal Welfare League both disagree, if an animal is stunned then yes it would be, however once an animal is stunned then it is not considered Halal or Kosher. The animals throat is cut without any pain relief and it bleeds to death over several minutes, its not even remotley humane treatment of an animal and its all 100% legal in Australia....

That's how we used to kill sheep on the farm, was a bit hard to hold cattle or pigs so they got a bullet between the eyes.Poultry just had their heads chopped off and were hung on the clothes line upside down to bleed out.

(Sorry if that's too gruesome and offends anyone, it was common practice on farms at least up until the 80's, I doubt it would have changed much)

[Ian]

I have too many conflictions to come up with any solutions. I just see a certain amount of hypocrisy regarding banning live exports and apparently cruel practices.

I think banning live exports would harm to all parties involved, both human and animal

[mick]

Halal done properly is painless for the animal.

Sorry Quinchy, that it total and utter Bullhsit mate, The RSPCA and the Animal Welfare League both disagree, if an animal is stunned then yes it would be, however once an animal is stunned then it is not considered Halal or Kosher. The animals throat is cut without any pain relief and it bleeds to death over several minutes, its not even remotley humane treatment of an animal and its all 100% legal in Australia....

That's how we used to kill sheep on the farm, was a bit hard to hold cattle or pigs so they got a bullet between the eyes.Poultry just had their heads chopped off and were hung on the clothes line upside down to bleed out.

(Sorry if that's too gruesome and offends anyone, it was common practice on farms at least up until the 80's, I doubt it would have changed much)

This exactly what happened on my uncle's farm and many others in the district in the 1960s. I saw a sheep killed in this manner when I was about 6, very disturbing, but I was a townie and soft

[redandblack]

The Coalition Senator who said the abbatoir worker had been bribed to stage the cruelty is being sued.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 6117000721

So much for that claim

[The Sleeping Giant]

What about the inherent cruelty that exists with intensive animal farming practices in Australia?

Think you will find Australia is rated one of the best in the world when it comes to animal farming practices.

[The Sleeping Giant]

Simple solution if you have a problem with livestock production is don't eat any meat. I know where it comes from and how it is processed and I'm okay with it. Mans gotta eat.

[Sojourner]

Halal done properly is painless for the animal.

Sorry Quinchy, that it total and utter Bullhsit mate, The RSPCA and the Animal Welfare League both disagree, if an animal is stunned then yes it would be, however once an animal is stunned then it is not considered Halal or Kosher. The animals throat is cut without any pain relief and it bleeds to death over several minutes, its not even remotley humane treatment of an animal and its all 100% legal in Australia....

That's how we used to kill sheep on the farm, was a bit hard to hold cattle or pigs so they got a bullet between the eyes.Poultry just had their heads chopped off and were hung on the clothes line upside down to bleed out.

(Sorry if that's too gruesome and offends anyone, it was common practice on farms at least up until the 80's, I doubt it would have changed much)

What has changed Ian is that in the Abbatoir the animal is "stunned" first so that the pain component of the slaughter is removed, the rest is pretty much still the same, instead of a bulled they use a bolt and compressed air.

[RustyCage]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/mps-reject-live-trade-bans/story-e6frea73-1226117271072

TWO separate bids to end live animal exports have failed to win the support of a single government or opposition MP.

The first, a private Bill by independent MP Andrew Wilkie, aimed to phase out the trade by 2014.

The second Bill, initiated by Australian Greens MP Adam Bandt, sought an immediate ban.

Mr Wilkie said the live animal export trade was unethical.

"How much more evidence does the Government or the Opposition need to see before they wind up live exports?" he told parliament before the vote.

But the MP's call fell on deaf ears with only Mr Bandt backing his crossbench colleague.

Mr Wilkie returned the favour when it came to a vote on Mr Bandt's private Bill.

"The vote may go down but it'll be one of those instances where Labor and Liberal are out of step with what people think," the Greens MP said ahead of the vote.

The RSPCA and Animals Australia are expected to release new footage of ill-treatment of Australian livestock in Turkey later today.

About a dozen people, huddled under umbrellas, gathered outside Parliament House for a silent vigil in support of a ban on live exports.

Mr Wilkie also called on Opposition Leader Tony Abbott to reprimand Chris Back over the Liberal senator's questioning of Animals Australia during an upper house inquiry hearing earlier in August.

Senator Back suggested a taxi driver used by the animal welfare organisation had paid Indonesian meat workers to abuse cattle for footage that was later used for a Four Corners report.

Subsequent public outcry led to a temporary ban on live cattle exports to Indonesia.