SA Footy

even within the same industry it occurs.

bennymacca wrote:even within the same industry it occurs.

but it occurs within the same industry with men too. different businesses will pay different amounts. not everyone just pays the award rates, some pay more. and as HH3 has pointed out, if there is a systemic issue with a business paying male staff members more than female, for the same job, that is already illegal, and if caught, they will be prosecuted.

you cant compare one business that pays well, to a different one up the road that just so happens to have more female employees and only pays award rates surely?

insert "dont call me shirley" joke here

tipper wrote:

bennymacca wrote:
I know you are probably saying this tongue in cheek, but you still are misunderstanding the point that even if you control for all of those factors, there is still a difference in wages.

but how though? is there a workplace that pays men and women differently?

if more women make a personal choice to work in a lower paying industry, how is that the fault of society?

i think the other day that child care, and welding were compared as an example as to a wage gap. both were supposedly a similar qualification (certificate 3??) but one is paid better than the other. i fail to see the issue. unless something or someone is preventing women from doing welding, or preventing men from doing child care, how is that an example of a wage gap? how can we compensate for people choosing lower paid employment?

Yeah that confused me as well. When they said they were striking for a pay rise, I thought fair enough, They want more money. Who doesn't?

When they went on to say it was because of the "gender pay gap", I thought, wow, dudes in childcare must get paid heaps more than women.

Then I read the comparison to welders and stopped reading. What a load of shit.

HH3 wrote:

tipper wrote:

bennymacca wrote:
I know you are probably saying this tongue in cheek, but you still are misunderstanding the point that even if you control for all of those factors, there is still a difference in wages.

but how though? is there a workplace that pays men and women differently?

if more women make a personal choice to work in a lower paying industry, how is that the fault of society?

i think the other day that child care, and welding were compared as an example as to a wage gap. both were supposedly a similar qualification (certificate 3??) but one is paid better than the other. i fail to see the issue. unless something or someone is preventing women from doing welding, or preventing men from doing child care, how is that an example of a wage gap? how can we compensate for people choosing lower paid employment?

Yeah that confused me as well. When they said they were striking for a pay rise, I thought fair enough, They want more money. Who doesn't?

When they went on to say it was because of the "gender pay gap", I thought, wow, dudes in childcare must get paid heaps more than women.

Then I read the comparison to welders and stopped reading. What a load of shit.

its like saying that mechanical engineers get paid differently to civil engineers but have similar level qualifications, or a radiologist getting paid differently to a gastroenterologist (spelling). etc etc etc

(just assuming there is a difference there so dont take it as gospel)

HH3 wrote:

tipper wrote:

bennymacca wrote:
I know you are probably saying this tongue in cheek, but you still are misunderstanding the point that even if you control for all of those factors, there is still a difference in wages.

but how though? is there a workplace that pays men and women differently?

if more women make a personal choice to work in a lower paying industry, how is that the fault of society?

i think the other day that child care, and welding were compared as an example as to a wage gap. both were supposedly a similar qualification (certificate 3??) but one is paid better than the other. i fail to see the issue. unless something or someone is preventing women from doing welding, or preventing men from doing child care, how is that an example of a wage gap? how can we compensate for people choosing lower paid employment?

Yeah that confused me as well. When they said they were striking for a pay rise, I thought fair enough, They want more money. Who doesn't?

When they went on to say it was because of the "gender pay gap", I thought, wow, dudes in childcare must get paid heaps more than women.

Then I read the comparison to welders and stopped reading. What a load of shit.

This i agree with. Its not about making sure women dominated industries get paid the same as male dominated industries just because.

Ill use my profession as an example. A woman engineer with no kids is still on average getting paid less than a man engineer. And I have heard anecdotes about it being intimidating for women entering male dominated industries. Those are things that are being addressed in my workplace, and should continue to be.

bennymacca wrote:
This i agree with. Its not about making sure women dominated industries get paid the same as male dominated industries just because.

Ill use my profession as an example. A woman engineer with no kids is still on average getting paid less than a man engineer. And I have heard anecdotes about it being intimidating for women entering male dominated industries. Those are things that are being addressed in my workplace, and should continue to be.

but isnt that illegal? paying a female less just because she is female? the females should sue, and they should win.

i get that some workplaces/industries could be unwelcoming, but i see that as a whole other issue. it has nothing to do with ones pay packet. it still needs to be dealt with, as its also wrong, and i think that in many cases it has improved dramatically, but im sure there is still room for improvement.

As Tipper points out, women in your industry are within their rights to challenge their pay rates? The anti-discrimination laws already cover that. The fight has been won with regard to fair pay, for a long time now.

Lots of workplaces are hostile and intimidating environments. Not saying that's ok. But it's not exclusive to women. That gets used as an example of the gender pay gap, but it's a separate issue.

Also, having male and female dominated industries is due to the choice of those males and females. How many girls at school are talking about being plumbers, and how many dudes want to be hairdressers?

You can't become a hairdresser, knowing what you're likely to earn, and then complain that the plumbers making more than you.

In Medicine very few females choose to go where the big money is - becoming a surgeon of one sort or other in private practice. The majority choose to become GPs (usually part-time), or move into Paediatrics, Anaesthetics, or Psychiatry all of which offer more flexible working hours and paid session work that doesn't require being on call outside the session hours.

This could reflect greater commitment to having and caring for children, or simply making better life/work balance choices - and accepting less money. So far no one had suggested all medicos should be paid as well as, say, Orthopaedic Surgeons. Yet all complete the same medical degrees and all specialists have to do specialist training for several years.

bennymacca wrote:Do you think that there is not a single study that tries to control for these factors?

Yes, there have been.

After taking into account things like field chosen, hours worked, years off, etc, a male will earn roughly 3.9% more than an equivalent female in Australia.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/money/topstories/higher-proportion-of-gender-pay-gap-unexplained-in-australia-than-in-us-uk-research-shows/ar-BBqRcqD?ocid=spartanntp

The study looked at a sample of 4,044 salaries anonymously reported on the Glassdoor website by Australian employees.

Of that sample, 77 per cent were male and 23 per cent were female — which the research acknowledged was not necessarily representative of the overall labour market.

From that, Glassdoor estimated there to be a 17.3 per cent "unadjusted" gap in base pay between Australian men and women.

Although, when age, education and years of experience were considered, that gap shrunk to 12 per cent.

It narrowed further to an "adjusted" 3.9 per cent when a richer set of variables were examined, including the specific industry, occupation, state, year, firm size, company and job title.

In the UK the "adjusted" pay gap was 5.5 per cent, while the US figure was slightly lower at 5.4 per cent.

Is this fair? Nope, not really.
Do I think it's enough of an issue that it should be front line news? Probably not.
3.9% is quite small in reality.

It's a little long, but if you've got 15 minutes, I strongly suggest you watch the following:


While I think some of the video goes a little too far the other way, it certainly does get it's point across to show the other side of the coin.

If you don't have time, here are some stats:

Access to children - in the case of sole custody, 18% of the time it goes to a father, 82% to the mother.
Violence against men - while 1 in 3 women will be assaulted in their lifetime, the figure is 1 in 1 for males.
Medical research - Breast Cancer will affect 1 in 8 women, but 1 in 6 males will get prostate cancer, despite the higher rates for Prostate cancer, Breast Cancer is funded $2 to $1 when compared to Prostate.
92% of workplace deaths are males.
Women live 6 years longer than men.
The education system is biased towards women, with the majority of University Graduates female.
Suicide is far more prevalent in males than females, and is the leading cause of death for males under 45.

There are several areas of life where Men and Women are dealt a different hand.
A 3.9% difference isn't big enough for me to worry about.
For others, it is.

Yep there are plenty of other things as suggested by Traders post that need addressing before a small wage gap is looked at.

Good post traders.

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There's no reason that others campaigning for cause A excludes you from campaigning for cause B.

Well spoken Trader, well spoken.