New ALP leadership

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New ALP leadership

Postby Psyber » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:34 pm

Julia Gillard does, I think, make a valid point here:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/new ... se-begins/
"These rules literally mean that a person could hang on as Labor leader and as prime minister even if every member of cabinet, the body that should be the most powerful and collegiate in the country, has decided that person was no longer capable of functioning as prime minister," she writes. "A person could hang on even if well over half of their parliamentary colleagues thought the same."

The new scheme does seem cumbersome, and did seem to be designed to help K Rudd stay in power once he had regained it, more than anything else.

The ALP may be better "democratised" if they looked at the Liberal model:
1. The elected parliamentary members select the leader.
2. The local members have sole say in electing the candidate in their seat from those who nominate.
3. Outside organisations - business interests, unions, other MPs, or other party officials - have no say at all in choosing the local candidate.
(Other than through trying to influence the opinion of the voting membership in any given seat.)
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Q. » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:52 pm

It was knee-jerk reaction to appease the public. Needs to be scrapped.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Gozu » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:23 pm

It's no surprise the factional chiefs and those they propped up (Gillard) are against the ALP becoming a more democratic party. Clearly over these last three years it's evident party members should bow to their better judgement :roll:

An in depth thread/comments about why the ALP needs to become a more democratic party by keeping these reforms:

http://larvatusprodeo.net/archives/2013 ... -disorder/
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Psyber » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:10 pm

Gozu wrote:It's no surprise the factional chiefs and those they propped up (Gillard) are against the ALP becoming a more democratic party.
Clearly over these last three years it's evident party members should bow to their better judgement :roll:

An in depth thread/comments about why the ALP needs to become a more democratic party by keeping these reforms:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/archives/2013 ... -disorder/
I agree the ALP needs to be more democratic.
I just wonder if the structure they've chosen is the best one.

The ALP's lack of that democracy was one of the reasons I turned to the Libs in 1996, rather than the ALP, when all parties were moving to the right after the mid-1980s.
I felt it was time to join a party and have something to say about the swing, and I thought I was more likely to be able to get myself heard within the Libs.

However, I concede my tendency to financial conservatism was another factor.
(I'm more conservative financially than socially.)
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Barto » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:49 pm

Q. wrote:It was knee-jerk reaction to appease the public. Needs to be scrapped.


Also was another example of the Libs pulling the strings. Abbott kept going on about "faceless men" and this is another way to try to counter it.
It's all the SANFL's fault.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Bully » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:49 am

lol Julia has come out all guns blazing over her dumping from the leadership, blaming everyone under the sun except herself for the debacle of the labor party
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Jimmy_041 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:24 am

Same way Keating has always blamed the people of Australia for being so dumb as to dump him although it was a landslide
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Psyber » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:29 pm

Bully wrote:lol Julia has come out all guns blazing over her dumping from the leadership, blaming everyone under the sun except herself for the debacle of the labor party
I noticed that too.
First she came out with something sensible like a criticism of the Rudd "democratisation" being cumbersome.
Then she trots out that you refer to, including at the end the idea that she could have defended the Carbon Tax as not being a tax - presumably on the basis that they intended to float it and make it into a trading scheme when they got around to it. (And didn't need as much income from it?)

I don't think either Julia or Kevin have learned from their experience.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Gozu » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:40 pm

Psyber wrote:
Bully wrote:lol Julia has come out all guns blazing over her dumping from the leadership, blaming everyone under the sun except herself for the debacle of the labor party
I noticed that too.
First she came out with something sensible like a criticism of the Rudd "democratisation" being cumbersome.
Then she trots out that you refer to, including at the end the idea that she could have defended the Carbon Tax as not being a tax - presumably on the basis that they intended to float it and make it into a trading scheme when they got around to it. (And didn't need as much income from it?)

I don't think either Julia or Kevin have learned from their experience.


None of them ever do, they've all got 'legacies' to protect. Look at Howard still acts like he has no idea why he & the Libs got thrown out in 2007.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Sky Pilot » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:42 am

I hope the media keep putting Albanese up in front of the cameras.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Sojourner » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:40 pm

I am a little dissapointed that they could only find two candidates to nominate. With all the branch members voting, its a good chance to get a decent candidate up, one that the people want, not one that the factional overlords want out of Shorten and Albanese. - Ed Husic, Tony Zappia, Tania Plibersek are all good candidates that would run rings around those two and put the ALP in a far better position to be reelected in three years time. Albanese stands for nothing at all and Shorten was the one that put the knife into Gillard and got caught with it, the ALP have no future with either of them, a very good opportunity to take it to the people for a recommendation for someone else to start over afresh in the ALP.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Bully » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:41 am

they should vote the snake in the grass in to be their leader. Shorten will lead them to another landslide defeat, from the already near landslide again in the next election :D
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Grahaml » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:44 pm

Neither appear terribly appealing right now, but neither did Tony Abbott at the time and that worked out for them.

I'm not a fan of the new Labor rules, I think they make the process slow and cumbersome. There's also questions in my mind regarding whether it makes branch stacking easier. But it should offer a boost to Labor's membership and in principle it's a good idea. I just hope it's not the start of a process that ends up with US style campaigns to lead the party to an election.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Psyber » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:16 pm

Grahaml wrote:Neither appear terribly appealing right now, but neither did Tony Abbott at the time and that worked out for them.

I'm not a fan of the new Labor rules, I think they make the process slow and cumbersome. There's also questions in my mind regarding whether it makes branch stacking easier. But it should offer a boost to Labor's membership and in principle it's a good idea. I just hope it's not the start of a process that ends up with US style campaigns to lead the party to an election.
Yes that is what worries me about this direct election of the leader model - I can see it having potential to make the process very expensive for the public in the end.
The model where the membership have direct and total say in selecting the local candidates for election, but the successfully elected candidates, who become the parliamentary party, select their leader seems less risky.

The ALP's problem was having the back room boys involved in selecting candidates which they can still do.
Under the present scheme, the local members only get to select from the list approved by the same old ALP system...
Last edited by Psyber on Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby dedja » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:18 pm

Labor making a complete clusterfaark an even bigger clusterfaark ... the coalition will have at least 3 terms in government with Labor going through at least 3-4 leaders in that period.

The next Labor PM probably isn't even in parliament at the moment.
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Bully » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:10 am

Grahaml wrote:Neither appear terribly appealing right now, but neither did Tony Abbott at the time and that worked out for them.

I'm not a fan of the new Labor rules, I think they make the process slow and cumbersome. There's also questions in my mind regarding whether it makes branch stacking easier. But it should offer a boost to Labor's membership and in principle it's a good idea. I just hope it's not the start of a process that ends up with US style campaigns to lead the party to an election.



still, would the labor party faitful want the snake in the grass to be leading them now seen as he was the leader in the facelss me to bring down K Rudd and Julia?
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Psyber » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:53 pm

I see Bill Shorten is reported as now wanting representative quotas for social sub-groups in the Parliament.
Obviously the public at large couldn't be expected to vote in line with such a system - they are so uncooperative.
So, there would need to be a group of faceless men/women/sub-groups pre-selecting "suitable" candidates for both parties! :lol:
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Ruben Carter » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:41 pm

dedja wrote:Labor making a complete clusterfaark an even bigger clusterfaark ... the coalition will have at least 3 terms in government with Labor going through at least 3-4 leaders in that period.

The next Labor PM probably isn't even in parliament at the moment.

:lol: :lol: :lol: you wish.... :roll:
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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby bulldogproud2 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:39 am

Psyber wrote:I see Bill Shorten is reported as now wanting representative quotas for social sub-groups in the Parliament.
Obviously the public at large couldn't be expected to vote in line with such a system - they are so uncooperative.
So, there would need to be a group of faceless men/women/sub-groups pre-selecting "suitable" candidates for both parties! :lol:


Psyber, did you not say at one stage that this is the reason you joined the Liberal Party? Because the rank and file members actually do get a say??

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Re: New ALP leadership

Postby Psyber » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:42 am

bulldogproud2 wrote:
Psyber wrote:I see Bill Shorten is reported as now wanting representative quotas for social sub-groups in the Parliament.
Obviously the public at large couldn't be expected to vote in line with such a system - they are so uncooperative.
So, there would need to be a group of faceless men/women/sub-groups pre-selecting "suitable" candidates for both parties! :lol:
Psyber, did you not say at one stage that this is the reason you joined the Liberal Party? Because the rank and file members actually do get a say??
Cheers
In the post above I was talking of the usual ALP "faceless men" union power brokers, and any other back room power brokers in the Caucus, selecting people for the quotas and controlling nominations.

I wasn't applying that term to the local ALP members.

That selection of suitable candidates for quotas by a small group before any local voting would have to happen before the general membership got to vote on the list of candidates for their seat if quotas were to exist, because, in a really democratic situation where anyone can nominate and only the local membership makes the selection, it would be impossible to establish enough coordination and control to enforce a quota, by gender or sexual orientation or any other category. That's why the Liberal Party struggle to maintain a PC image as well as the ALP - that back room control is not there.

The local members can rebel against the ALP even now, if they care enough.

It happened in the SA seat of Semaphore in the 1980s when the state Caucus imposed an unpopular Greek candidate from the left faction on Semaphore, and the long-standing local branch chairman resigned and ran as an independent, and romped it in with the support of the local ALP membership.

(As one local long term ALP supporter from that seat said to me at the time about the ALP endorsed candidate, "That guy is not an ALP man he's a bloody Commo.")
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