Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:54 am

Bennymacca,
Look, I like you and really do value your depth of knowledge and understanding. However, I think we should agree to disagree. You have your reasons for following a different religion to mine and I have my reasons for following mine. I think that we have both put pretty strong cases for our points. I am very open and happy for you to have the thoughts and beliefs you have and I have learned through your posts. I also know that, despite differences in our beliefs, we both are very much people who want the best for all of mankind, particularly those who have the greatest struggles in life.
Not sure about Sleeping Giant. From what I read, he seems to think that he is God and his word is simply true because he says it. *grins* You, on the other hand, have given a lot to think about.
Friends?

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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bennymacca » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:55 am

I don't identify as an atheist either, I'm quite prepared to accept that some sort of god exists if there is a shred of evidence. Even a single shred
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:03 am

bennymacca wrote:I don't identify as an atheist either, I'm quite prepared to accept that some sort of god exists if there is a shred of evidence. Even a single shred


I can't produce evidence that God does exist. However, I cannot produce evidence that God does not exist.
When I look at all the complexities and wonders of this world though, my belief is that it did not happen just by chance. Thus, I am a believer in God. The philosophies put forward by Jesus very much support the way in which I believe the world should operate. I believe in justice for the poor, support for the downtrodden etc. Thus, I support the philosophies of Christianity.
I am open to the possibility I may be proven wrong but it is who I am and what I believe.
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bennymacca » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:11 am

Those philosophies are not exclusive to Christianity. Buddhists and Jews and Muslims all believe in similar things. I don't follow any of these religions but support all of the things you mention.

Once again you cherry pick things that you agree with whilst completely ignoring things that can be disproven.
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby Mr Beefy » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:41 am

bennymacca wrote:I don't identify as an atheist either, I'm quite prepared to accept that some sort of god exists if there is a shred of evidence. Even a single shred

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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby tigerhutch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:52 am

Mr Beefy wrote:
bennymacca wrote:I don't identify as an atheist either, I'm quite prepared to accept that some sort of god exists if there is a shred of evidence. Even a single shred

Image



I dont think thats Malcolm I think its someone whom has been a very naughty boy :lol:
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:55 am

bennymacca wrote:Those philosophies are not exclusive to Christianity. Buddhists and Jews and Muslims all believe in similar things. I don't follow any of these religions but support all of the things you mention.

Once again you cherry pick things that you agree with whilst completely ignoring things that can be disproven.


As do you. It cannot be disproven that evolution is God's way of working in the world. However, you dismiss the fact that God could be involved in the process.
Okay, I should have gone a step further and stated that I believe that Jesus is indeed the son of God. It is a personal belief that others may not accept but I have my reasons, as do all for having their beliefs.

Cheers
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby Psyber » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:56 am

bulldogproud2 wrote:
Psyber wrote:I've always been inclined to the view that the unintelligent tend to embrace, heavily and obsessionally, faiths of one sort or another to give themselves a sense of direction, whether that faith is religious, political, philosophical, or whatever. And, of course there is more to intelligence than performance in an IQ test.

I was once professionally involved with dealing with problems generated by a guy who was a member of Mensa but who couldn't see the connection between his being the national secretary of the Australian Nazi party and his inability to get a lecturing job at a university anywhere in Oz despite his Ph.D. from ANU. He kept going back to, "But it shouldn't make any difference!"

My main "-ism" has always been individualism...
(But with a heart to some degree - the degree depending on the point of view of the observer, of course.)


I don't think it is fair to say that those who embrace religion are unintelligent. The alternative is that everything simply happened by random chance. I would love to know where intelligence, emotions, the ability to procreate etc. came from if it was all by random chance. Over 70% of Australians still class themselves as belonging to a religion. Does that mean that we have an incredibly unintelligent population?? Have you considered, as many have, that science has enlightened us to some of the processes God has used (e.g. evolution) but it has never been able to fully disprove the existence of God.

Cheers

I didn't say that - the key words were heavily and obsessionally.
I have a close friend who is a very well regarded Barrister in Adelaide who is a practising Christian.
We get on well and only touch lightly on our diversion - his Christianity and my atheism.

Intellectually I have to take the Agnostic position because nothing can be proven either way.
But at the emotional level I am inclined to Atheism, just not heavily and obsessionally - that is I don't push it at people.
My belief is tempered by my intellectual awareness.

That is akin to my political life - emotionally I am an individualist, but intellectually I know there are people who do need help and are not just bludging, and I give to charity, and sympathise with some socially left policies, and advocate for them in my political circles.

I simply object to the authoritarians who want to impose their Collectivism on me!
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby The Sleeping Giant » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:57 am

bennymacca wrote:Also, the fact that we could be here just purely because of chance scares the shit out of people, because they like to think there is some higher purpose that makes their meaningless existence, well, meaningful.


This is what I was referring too when I posted I find religious people scared.

Bdp2. Will get back to you on a couple of things.
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Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bennymacca » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:59 am

I am not trying to disprove that god it at work with evolution. But it sure as hell doesn't say anywhere in the bible that he does. It does however say that he created the earth 6000 years ago, man first, then animals after that. And we know all of that to be false.

If I told you that there were invisible aliens from space walking amongst us right now you would think I am a looney. Ah, but science can't prove they are not there, so it must be true!

You can't deny the existence of a god with science, but you can definitely poke some holes in the bible and how most of it was designed to give people comfort in the fact that they couldn't explain the world around them, 2000 years ago
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby Psyber » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:03 pm

bennymacca wrote:We are not a snake or a shark. Claiming that a Virgin birth for a human is compatible with science is utterly ridiculous

There was a medieval street play tolerated by the Catholic church at the time in which Joseph was portrayed as challenging Mary about the possibility of virgin birth. Of course the Church tolerated it because it accepted Joseph's scepticism but then refuted it and showed him coming to believe it. This was their way of delaing with public scepticism at the time.

Unfortunately, it is so long ago that I read about I can no longer remember the source.
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:12 pm

Psyber wrote:
bennymacca wrote:We are not a snake or a shark. Claiming that a Virgin birth for a human is compatible with science is utterly ridiculous

There was a medieval street play tolerated by the Catholic church at the time in which Joseph was portrayed as challenging Mary about the possibility of virgin birth. Of course the Church tolerated it because it accepted Joseph's scepticism but then refuted it and showed him coming to believe it. This was their way of delaing with public scepticism at the time.

Unfortunately, it is so long ago that I read about I can no longer remember the source.


It seems perfectly fine to me. Of course, Joseph was at first sceptical about the Virgin Birth. It is a fact that he supported Mary through the birth though, so that play seems to be fine.

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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:20 pm

bennymacca wrote:Those philosophies are not exclusive to Christianity. Buddhists and Jews and Muslims all believe in similar things. I don't follow any of these religions but support all of the things you mention.

Once again you cherry pick things that you agree with whilst completely ignoring things that can be disproven.


That is pretty much because Jews and Muslims also believe in the same God. Yes, you can have a desire to assist the poor etc. without being religious. However, these religions certainly do promote such aspects so don't seem to be harmful in what they preach. i personally believe in Christianity because I have studied all faiths and have found that my conscience and intellect lend me towards Christianity. To be told that I follow Christianity because I have a low intellect I find to be rather offensive. There are many with strong intellects who have studied deeply who believe in a religion, and many of these believe in Christianity. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, particularly if they have studied and thought them through.

For Sleeping Giant to say that people only follow religion because they have been brainwashed shows absolutely no willingness to look at any other viewpoint than his own. This is what I cannot understand. A number of athiests, and even agnostics, will state that anyone who disputes their views has a low intellect and is brainwashed. They are trying to force their views upon others. However, as soon as it is done the other way, all hell breaks loose with them.

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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby Leaping Lindner » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:24 pm

tigerhutch wrote:
Mr Beefy wrote:
bennymacca wrote:I don't identify as an atheist either, I'm quite prepared to accept that some sort of god exists if there is a shred of evidence. Even a single shred

Image



I dont think thats Malcolm I think its someone whom has been a very naughty boy :lol:



He didn't even hold the mark. ;)
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:27 pm

bennymacca wrote:I am not trying to disprove that god it at work with evolution. But it sure as hell doesn't say anywhere in the bible that he does. It does however say that he created the earth 6000 years ago, man first, then animals after that. And we know all of that to be false.

If I told you that there were invisible aliens from space walking amongst us right now you would think I am a looney. Ah, but science can't prove they are not there, so it must be true!

You can't deny the existence of a god with science, but you can definitely poke some holes in the bible and how most of it was designed to give people comfort in the fact that they couldn't explain the world around them, 2000 years ago


There are also many areas where science cannot provide answers and allows room for the existence of God to be valid. As I have said numerous times, how can science fully explain the formation of conscience, intellect, emotions etc?
There are things that are supported by science now that will be proven to be incorrect later. Does this mean that you are a looney for supporting scientific viewpoints? No. Science is always developing, finding new ways of thinking. Theology does the same.
Btw, please show me where in the Bible it states that life only begain 6 000 years ago. There is nowhere.
As for the creation stories in the Bible, you allow science to develop and change ideas on how the world was created. Why not allow the same for theology?

Cheers

Cheers
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby smac » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:27 pm

bulldogproud2 wrote:
bennymacca wrote:Those philosophies are not exclusive to Christianity. Buddhists and Jews and Muslims all believe in similar things. I don't follow any of these religions but support all of the things you mention.

Once again you cherry pick things that you agree with whilst completely ignoring things that can be disproven.


As do you. It cannot be disproven that evolution is God's way of working in the world. However, you dismiss the fact that God could be involved in the process.
Okay, I should have gone a step further and stated that I believe that Jesus is indeed the son of God. It is a personal belief that others may not accept but I have my reasons, as do all for having their beliefs.

Cheers

There are some 6,000 Gods, are there not?

We're not that different, you and I. I only believe in one less God than you do.
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:29 pm

Psyber wrote:
bulldogproud2 wrote:
Psyber wrote:I've always been inclined to the view that the unintelligent tend to embrace, heavily and obsessionally, faiths of one sort or another to give themselves a sense of direction, whether that faith is religious, political, philosophical, or whatever. And, of course there is more to intelligence than performance in an IQ test.

I was once professionally involved with dealing with problems generated by a guy who was a member of Mensa but who couldn't see the connection between his being the national secretary of the Australian Nazi party and his inability to get a lecturing job at a university anywhere in Oz despite his Ph.D. from ANU. He kept going back to, "But it shouldn't make any difference!"

My main "-ism" has always been individualism...
(But with a heart to some degree - the degree depending on the point of view of the observer, of course.)


I don't think it is fair to say that those who embrace religion are unintelligent. The alternative is that everything simply happened by random chance. I would love to know where intelligence, emotions, the ability to procreate etc. came from if it was all by random chance. Over 70% of Australians still class themselves as belonging to a religion. Does that mean that we have an incredibly unintelligent population?? Have you considered, as many have, that science has enlightened us to some of the processes God has used (e.g. evolution) but it has never been able to fully disprove the existence of God.

Cheers

I didn't say that - the key words were heavily and obsessionally.
I have a close friend who is a very well regarded Barrister in Adelaide who is a practising Christian.
We get on well and only touch lightly on our diversion - his Christianity and my atheism.

Intellectually I have to take the Agnostic position because nothing can be proven either way.
But at the emotional level I am inclined to Atheism, just not heavily and obsessionally - that is I don't push it at people.
My belief is tempered by my intellectual awareness.

That is akin to my political life - emotionally I am an individualist, but intellectually I know there are people who do need help and are not just bludging, and I give to charity, and sympathise with some socially left policies, and advocate for them in my political circles.

I simply object to the authoritarians who want to impose their Collectivism on me!


Just as i object to those who tell me I have a low intellect because I believe in a God. iI am not referring to you in that, Psyber, but to comments made by Sleeping Giant. I agree that those who are not at least willing to listen to the viewpoints of others and to practice discernment seem to me to be intellectually lacking. However, it seems perfectly fine for those without belief in God to ram their opinions down the throat of others or to scoff at them. On the other hand, most people of a religious background are extremely tolerant of the viewpoints of others. Admittedly, this has only recently been the case.
Last edited by bulldogproud2 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby Psyber » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:31 pm

We do have to remember that Jehovah (aka Yahweh in the Torah) as a one god was a descendent of other one god concepts in Egypt (Ra) and Persia (Ahura Mazda), just as Allah was further down the line of descent from Jehovah.

"Jehovah" is interesting as a name for the Christian God, anyway, as before Christianity the chief god of the Romans was Jupiter and "Jove" is the genitive form of Jupiter, meaning "of Jupiter".
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby bulldogproud2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:35 pm

The Sleeping Giant wrote:
bulldogproud2 wrote:
I don't think it is fair to say that those who embrace religion are unintelligent. The alternative is that everything simply happened by random chance. I would love to know where intelligence, emotions, the ability to procreate etc. came from if it was all by random chance. Over 70% of Australians still class themselves as belonging to a religion. Does that mean that we have an incredibly unintelligent population?? Have you considered, as many have, that science has enlightened us to some of the processes God has used (e.g. evolution) but it has never been able to fully disprove the existence of God.

Cheers


Science has proved many things. Religion has proved nothing. Religion is the community that has to prove God exists.

I find religious people unintelligent, scared and ignorant. Unable to accept other peoples opinions, unable to let people live as they choose and unable to accept people living outside the hive mind.

p.s. Love this part of your post. "Have you considered, as many have, that science has enlightened us to some of the processes God has used (e.g. evolution)". That's enough random internet posts for me tonight. Staggering.


This is the statement that really worries me. It shows absolutely no tolerance for the views of others. Apparently, if anyone disagrees with Sleeping Giant's viewpoint, they are unintelligent, scared and ignorant. Yet, this is exactly what he goes on to condemn in others.

Anyway, this is my last post on this forum. You all have valid reasons for your viewpoints and so do I for mine. It is a beautiful world when we have so much intellect, depth and emotion available to us to have this debate. Whether that be just through complete random fluke or whether provided by a Creator we will never truly know on this earth. I just know that I have looked deeply into various faiths, have analysed and discerned and have developed the belief structure I have. I fully support each of you in how you have developed your own. Just don't tell me that I am ignorant, unintelligent and scared just because I have different beliefs to you.
Cheers
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Re: Survey results confirming what most already knew *grins*

Postby tigerhutch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:55 pm

Look at the prime ministers this country has had so the conclusion would be we are just plain dumb :shock:
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