Feminism

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Re: Feminism

Postby HH3 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:30 pm

bennymacca wrote:
HH3 wrote:
Zartan wrote:
bennymacca wrote:cant be denied that women are sometimes overlooked for promotions because of conscious or unconscious biases, or treated differently in other ways. Saying there is no such thing is ill informed.

Can you provide any examples? These days diversity is key, especially in senior roles.. women quite often are sought out for promotions or executive roles etc.


Careful, he might find one on Wikipedia.



im glad all it takes is your opinion to refute all of the research that is done into this area

HH3 wrote:This is from the Australian Governments Workplace Gender Equality Agency website.

It is important to remember that the national gender pay gap is a high-level figure that shows general differences in earnings between women and men across the board. It is not a like-for-like analysis of women and men doing the same job and therefore, it doesn’t mean that women are earning 18.8% less than men in the same role,” Dr Harris said.


Pretty much means the figures are not representative of anything.

Just think of the families where the male works and earns enough for the female to stay home with the kids by choice. Their gender pay gap is 100%.


this is clearly a factor but cannot explain away the full difference.

HH3 wrote:The law is equal.

If a woman thinks she is being discriminated against, she should take legal action. The same as a male should. Equal.


lets say there were two people going for a promotion who were both equally qualified. One person gets the job.

How does the other person know they were discriminated against?

In a lot of industries I think the problem is all but gone. At least thats my perception in my field. But to just explain away the differences in a single sentence is ridiculous



1) My opinion is formed after reading things that aren't on Wikipedia. There's a reason every education institution tells you not to use that site as a research tool.

2) It's a factor that skews the percentage so much that it makes it redundant. There's no way to measure prejudices, and deciding someones employment status or pay rate based entirely on gender is illegal. Equality is in effect, legally speaking.

3) If you don't know if you've been discriminated against, how can you cry discrimination? Just a hunch? Maybe the other person spoke better. Or maybe we should award the job to a woman over a man who suits the role better, just so people (female and male) don't bitch and moan.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Jimmy_041 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:34 pm

HH3 wrote:Cant wait for the transgender lights to roll out.

(I have no problem with transgender people. I just think this is getting so ridiculous)


I'm as confused about transgender as they seem to be

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Re: Feminism

Postby amber_fluid » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:42 pm

Bahahaha
Why is this in the politics thread?
Can the mods move it to the 'things that make you laugh' thread!!
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: Feminism

Postby stan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:30 pm

amber_fluid wrote:Bahahaha
Why is this in the politics thread?
Can the mods move it to the 'things that make you laugh' thread!!

Because it is political based. Probably in the right spot.
Read my reply. It is directed at you because you have double standards
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Re: Feminism

Postby bennymacca » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:11 am

stan wrote:
amber_fluid wrote:Bahahaha
Why is this in the politics thread?
Can the mods move it to the 'things that make you laugh' thread!!

Because it is political based. Probably in the right spot.


Don't worry Stan, it's my fault for assuming people on SAFooty had the capacity to have a somewhat nuanced conversation
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Re: Feminism

Postby tipper » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:17 am

to what extent do these types of studies take into account part time work? out of the 22 people that work within sight of my desk, there are 6 that only work part time, by their own choice. all of which are women (its actually nearly half of the 13 women in the group). men may also be able to choose to go part time, but from what i have experienced it is usually the women that do so, rather than their male partners. (i can only think of one guy i know that does part time to leave a day for looking after his kids, all the others i can think of are women, small sample size though)

now, do they count as earning less than men? even though they choose to work part time as part of their work life balance? they are on the same hourly rate as the men of the same level, yet their take home pay would be less due to doing less total hours.

and do they count as being "discriminated against" for promotions when the higher position may require a full time worker? so they are ruled out as they will not commit to the full time hours?

if the above isnt taken into account, then im not sure the stats on the gender pay gap can really be used to demonstrate anything.

*edited to correct my maths, there are 13 women that sit near me, not 12.....
Last edited by tipper on Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feminism

Postby The Bedge » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:18 am

bennymacca wrote:
stan wrote:
amber_fluid wrote:Bahahaha
Why is this in the politics thread?
Can the mods move it to the 'things that make you laugh' thread!!

Because it is political based. Probably in the right spot.


Don't worry Stan, it's my fault for assuming people on SAFooty had the capacity to have a somewhat nuanced conversation

Conversation about Feminism can be taken seriously and with meaning, but I think what amber_fluid is getting at is the idea of installing the lights is a joke - none of it seems to make any sense to anyone except the few who came up with it.. even yourself have questioned it..

bennymacca wrote:How exactly does this help the cause of women?

bennymacca wrote:I am struggling to understand how having a woman on the signs instead of a man helps me remove my biases.

bennymacca wrote:Happy to be persuaded if anyone else has a decent argument for this


How are people expected to take Feminism seriously when this sort of random stuff is thrown up?
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Re: Feminism

Postby amber_fluid » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:23 am

Correct Zartan.
changing the gender on the lights is a joke.....not the topic!
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: Feminism

Postby bennymacca » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:27 am

Well I agree with you there. It is ridiculous.
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Re: Feminism

Postby bennymacca » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:29 am

tipper wrote:to what extent do these types of studies take into account part time work? out of the 22 people that work within sight of my desk, there are 6 that only work part time, by their own choice. all of which are women (its actually nearly half of the 13 women in the group). men may also be able to choose to go part time, but from what i have experienced it is usually the women that do so, rather than their male partners. (i can only think of one guy i know that does part time to leave a day for looking after his kids, all the others i can think of are women, small sample size though)

now, do they count as earning less than men? even though they choose to work part time as part of their work life balance? they are on the same hourly rate as the men of the same level, yet their take home pay would be less due to doing less total hours.

and do they count as being "discriminated against" for promotions when the higher position may require a full time worker? so they are ruled out as they will not commit to the full time hours?

if the above isnt taken into account, then im not sure the stats on the gender pay gap can really be used to demonstrate anything.

*edited to correct my maths, there are 13 women that sit near me, not 12.....



As far as Im aware there is still a gap even after accounting for these things.

But yeah it is certainly not an easy question.

My wife has just gone back to work after a period of maternity leave and is working for someone she used to supervise. That's just the price she has willingly paid for having children and it's something that I doubt can be overcome
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Re: Feminism

Postby tipper » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:38 am

bennymacca wrote:
tipper wrote:to what extent do these types of studies take into account part time work? out of the 22 people that work within sight of my desk, there are 6 that only work part time, by their own choice. all of which are women (its actually nearly half of the 13 women in the group). men may also be able to choose to go part time, but from what i have experienced it is usually the women that do so, rather than their male partners. (i can only think of one guy i know that does part time to leave a day for looking after his kids, all the others i can think of are women, small sample size though)

now, do they count as earning less than men? even though they choose to work part time as part of their work life balance? they are on the same hourly rate as the men of the same level, yet their take home pay would be less due to doing less total hours.

and do they count as being "discriminated against" for promotions when the higher position may require a full time worker? so they are ruled out as they will not commit to the full time hours?

if the above isnt taken into account, then im not sure the stats on the gender pay gap can really be used to demonstrate anything.

*edited to correct my maths, there are 13 women that sit near me, not 12.....



As far as Im aware there is still a gap even after accounting for these things.

But yeah it is certainly not an easy question.

My wife has just gone back to work after a period of maternity leave and is working for someone she used to supervise. That's just the price she has willingly paid for having children and it's something that I doubt can be overcome


yeah, i wasnt suggesting that those things werent included, i was genuinely asking. thanks for the clarification.

and i highly doubt that your wife has been discriminated against. its just that having months out of the workplace slows down career progression. it isnt because she is female, or that she had a baby. its because she was not there. im sure the same could be demonstrated if a guy had months off (for whatever reason) and then returned to his old position. others would have advanced in his absence. it is still much more common for women to have extended periods of time off than it is for men.
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Re: Feminism

Postby HH3 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:47 am

tipper wrote:to what extent do these types of studies take into account part time work? out of the 22 people that work within sight of my desk, there are 6 that only work part time, by their own choice. all of which are women (its actually nearly half of the 13 women in the group). men may also be able to choose to go part time, but from what i have experienced it is usually the women that do so, rather than their male partners. (i can only think of one guy i know that does part time to leave a day for looking after his kids, all the others i can think of are women, small sample size though)

now, do they count as earning less than men? even though they choose to work part time as part of their work life balance? they are on the same hourly rate as the men of the same level, yet their take home pay would be less due to doing less total hours.

and do they count as being "discriminated against" for promotions when the higher position may require a full time worker? so they are ruled out as they will not commit to the full time hours?

if the above isnt taken into account, then im not sure the stats on the gender pay gap can really be used to demonstrate anything.

*edited to correct my maths, there are 13 women that sit near me, not 12.....


The percentage is worked out by taking what every male earns, compared to what every female earns, with no circumstances taken into account, such as the ones you pointed out.

So really, the percentage is bogus, which the government agency set up to study the gender pay gap openly admit.

Until they do a like for like comparison, for every single industry, including every single employee, with all of their special circumstances noted, and worked into the equation, there will never be a correct figure to gauge the "gender pay gap".

A like I've said before, the law is equal. Not much more anyone can do besides enforce that law when discrimination is rightfully reported and investigated.
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Re: Feminism

Postby bennymacca » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:52 am

Do you have evidence for your assertion HH3?

Do you think that there is not a single study that tries to control for these factors?

I think you have a misunderstanding of what they mean by wage gap. It's not that women earn less and that's it - through the factors we have mentioned that's always likely to be the case. But you can control for all of those variables and still come out with a difference.

Mind you I think the gap is closing. As I've stated in my field, which is extremely male dominated, I don't feel like there is a barrier to any woman succeeding. But then again I'm not a woman so I also probably not the best places to comment on perceptions
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Re: Feminism

Postby HH3 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:01 am

Which assertion?

I don't understand what you think should happen? Do you want females paid more per hour for part time work or not working at all, so they earn the same as a male that works 40+ hours a week? Or vise versa. Males that don't work as many hours to be paid more per hour than females that work full time?

I really don't understand what you think the goal should be?

I want to understand though.
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Re: Feminism

Postby amber_fluid » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:03 am

Whats it matter?
My wife ends up with most of my pay anyway! :lol:
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: Feminism

Postby bennymacca » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:10 am

HH3 wrote:Which assertion?

I don't understand what you think should happen? Do you want females paid more per hour for part time work or not working at all, so they earn the same as a male that works 40+ hours a week? Or vise versa. Males that don't work as many hours to be paid more per hour than females that work full time?

I really don't understand what you think the goal should be?

I want to understand though.


If you go onto a job panel at work you need to do bias training and quite often names are removed from applications. Things like that can make a difference.

I don't believe in paying women more, I'm just pointing out that there is still a bias in some areas where, even after controlling for life circumstances, there is a pay difference.

Ie if you only took into account women who did not want to have kids there is still a difference. Maybe they get passed up for opportunities due to the perception they might leave and have kids.

I don't have the answers I'm just challenging your assertion that it's not still a problem in some areas
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Re: Feminism

Postby Jimmy_041 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:12 am

amber_fluid wrote:Whats it matter?
My wife ends up with most of my pay anyway! :lol:


:lol:
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Re: Feminism

Postby bennymacca » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:14 am

amber_fluid wrote:Whats it matter?
My wife ends up with most of my pay anyway! :lol:


Haha very true. Too many coffee dates with the mothers groups nowadays. So I put her back to work :)
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Re: Feminism

Postby Booney » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:16 am

bennymacca wrote:
amber_fluid wrote:Whats it matter?
My wife ends up with most of my pay anyway! :lol:


Haha very true. Too many coffee dates with the mothers groups nowadays. So I put her back to work :)


Yeah, you chose for that to happen. Keep telling yourself that....
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Re: Feminism

Postby bennymacca » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:22 am

Well the 12 months off surreptitiously turned into nearly 18 months somehow :)
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