HFL Division 1 (Central)

[Champ]

Echunga hve been raising concerns regarding the country division for two years; this has falled on deaf ears and seemingly they felt nothing had changed. Echunga's move to Central is seemingly 100% due to the same reasons Lofty don't want to go to Country.

Remove all clubs names and quite simply tonight's vote is to commence shaping competition like the SFL.

Also heard a whisper that Sedan are being turfed to C'Grade as they have not filled their quota of having two under age colts teams which was an agreement they were required to meet within 3 years of entering the HFL.
Will anyone fight tooth and nail and debate to support Sedan? Should they be relegated to C'Grade and Gumeracha stay up? Will the league simply overlook Sedan's relegation to avoid a 7 team country division - this would mean three clubs gone in 24 months so if that's not writing on the wall then I'm baffled.

Personally I think that the HFL should adopt the SAAFL promo/relegation and GET ON WITH IT. This way if you finish premiers you go up and if you finish bottom you go down; done! If the club who finished prmiers electes not to go up then the runner up gets the offer, if neither take it then the relgated club gets a free pass. The fairest and most equitable way to do things IMO.

I think that's what we have now.

No what we have now is an application process for promotion only; I think we've covered this part as armytank said - make it mandatory to the point that at the START of the season you know that if your a'grade win the wooden spoon then you're getting relegated unless the country grand finalists apply to NOT be promoted for any reason.
What I like about this is that even at the pointy end of the season in the SAAFL the bottom two sides are basically playing a final every week - a lot of upsets are caused.

[cracka]

It is what we have now. Calling it an application process is just a technicality. If it was then applications could be rejected, which they're not.
So instead of the country grand finalist applying to move you say it should be automatic that the central wooden spooner should move unless the 2 country grand finalists don't want to. Sounds a bit like "6 of one, half a dozen of the other" to me.
As I've said before it can't be AUTOMATIC/COMPULSORY promotion/relegation unless the rule to have all teams (A, B, S/C & J/C) playing in central is removed.

[Armytank]

I believe it can be automatic/compulsory.

Spoon Club in Central will know they are being relegated.

Premiership Club in Country is automatically promoted.

It is not until later in the year when Clubs must nominate teams for the following season.

If the Premiership Country Club fails to nominate a full compliment, then the Spoon Club from Central is "promoted" back to Central.

It is not that hard to work out really. This way, both the JC/SC/B/A commitment for Central is still respected AND compulsory promotion/relegation is enforced.

[Howard]

Would Mt Lofty (or any other club) be so reluctant to go to the Country division if they didn't have to drag their juniors with them? Could the solution be that the junior and senior competition be separated? ie allow clubs to nominate their junior teams wherever they best fit, whether that is in Central or Country.
As an example only - Birdwood, Meadows and Nairne juniors play Central, Uraidla, Ironbank and Torrens Valley in Country, it would take some programming but surely could be done and would be better than forcing the whole club (like Mt Lofty) into a division that could decimate their junior program.

Separating the juniors from the seniors would do more harm than good

Fair enough to disagree but I don't really know how it would do more harm - the current junior competition is in need of a total overhaul, forcing Mt Lofty's juniors to join the Country division is a recipe for disaster as far as their junior program is concerned.
Clubs can still have juniors playing games prior to their respective senior teams, but not necessarily 13's, 15's etc, may be a mix of the clubs modified teams?
If juniors were not included in the relegation process the movement of clubs between Central and Country may not be as traumatic as is currently the case?

Separate the juniors from the seniors and you might as well give up. I have seen it happen before, the focus should be to strengthen the bottom division, find away to ensure that is competitive or else it will fall apart. For a long time, the HFL had Callington bringing that division down and, although they have now gone, the damage has been done. In turn, allowing Country Div teams to continuously not field a full set of teams means that you cannot relegate a club like Lofty without long term damage, the competition structure is just not in place to suit their club, it will destroy them. The Central Div clubs will be fine - there will be not issue there in the short term, but the lower division will gradually fall apart, as we saw in the SFL. If a second division is not a viable option, as for Lofty it appears at the moment, then in reality the clubs involved are also in trouble.

As it stands, the country division will potentially diminish to 6 or 7 teams over the next 2-3 years through mergers or just disappearing, because the competition structure (ie junior setup) does not support it, one of these could be Lofty if they manage the fall well. After that, the HFL could find itself in the same predicament that the SFL found itself in 2002, with only 4 clubs left in the second division and no longer a viable competition.

Lets face it, if you do not have a full set of colts sides, the points system will destroy you but it also diminishes a clubs viability. If the country division fails, then it will become the Central division clubs' problem.

Another issue is it has never been a Division 1/Division 2 structure. It is two separate competitions, a bit like Riverland/Indys. Had it been Div 1/2 with compulsory promotion/relegation this would be just part of life. Instead, you have a situation where Echunga have to apply to join the Central Division, and the bottom side may get relegated in a season but it happens rarely, hence the extreme drop. As it has been run as two distinctly different competitions, I can understand Mt Lofty's stance. They are a member of the Hills Football League Central Division, why should they get kicked out of the competition just because someone else wants to join, why should they then have to join a competition that does not cater for their club structure?

This is not the amateur league, where you have 6 divisions of A-Grade football and total disregard for junior football. It is a semi-professional country-style competition where there are only 2 divisions, and to send a club whose culture has been based around a division 1 style, fully functioning competition, into the bottom division, where juniors are an afterthought, is akin to kicking a club out of the league altogether, it is that severe.

It is a tough situation, but a situation that has arisen because promotion has been optional rather than mandatory. Leave the competition as it is, if Echunga wanted to join Central they should have done it in 2011.

It looks like you've missed my point in your reply to my post. Separating the juniors and seniors in my argument is in programming only.

All HFL clubs have, to varying degrees, a junior component. They all work extremely hard in maintaining their numbers and various programs, they are not an "afterthought'. I'm not suggesting that clubs discard their junior programs.

A more equitable junior competition may make the process of being relegated a bit more palatable.

[cracka]

I believe it can be automatic/compulsory.

Spoon Club in Central will know they are being relegated.

Premiership Club in Country is automatically promoted.

It is not until later in the year when Clubs must nominate teams for the following season.

If the Premiership Country Club fails to nominate a full compliment, then the Spoon Club from Central is "promoted" back to Central.

It is not that hard to work out really. This way, both the JC/SC/B/A commitment for Central is still respected AND compulsory promotion/relegation is enforced.

Okay fair enough, so the country premier would have no choice about staying in country if they have the full compliment of juniors, they have to go up. I think it's a step sideways rather than forward (and another "6 of one half a dozen of the other" scenario) but if it will make Ironbank & the majority of clubs feel better then get you're president to put in a proposal.

[cracka]

It looks like you've missed my point in your reply to my post. Separating the juniors and seniors in my argument is in programming only.

All HFL clubs have, to varying degrees, a junior component. They all work extremely hard in maintaining their numbers and various programs, they are not an "afterthought'. I'm not suggesting that clubs discard their junior programs.

A more equitable junior competition may make the process of being relegated a bit more palatable.

The clubs don't want a different program for the juniors is the issue here. They want the programs the same as the A & B grades.

[rock]

Where's the Echunga posters? This is your forum now too, let's here what you have to say. How's preparation going for Central in 2014? Are your junior numbers looking good? What did you think of the SGM debarcle?

[has been]

Enough of this lofty crap now they are gone. Rules are rules so let them have a little sulky sulky and get back to country and play some good footy. They may win a few games now as well. Hopefully the HFL can get their act together and make sure this sort of fiasco does not happen again. Well done to all the clubs that voted no to enable this common sense ending to occur. Let's hope 2014 is a great season.

[cracka]

:D Enough of this lofty crap now they are gone. Rules are rules so let them have a little sulky sulky and get back to country and play some good footy. They may win a few games now as well. Hopefully the HFL can get their act together and make sure this sort of fiasco does not happen again. Well done to all the clubs that voted no to enable this common sense ending to occur. Let's hope 2014 is a great season.

What can the HFL do to make sure this doesn't happen again. It was Lofty that put this proposal in, the HFL had to do what they did & listen to it.

[jumbo20]

Does anyone now know what Mt Lofty will do?I would imagine they would need to announce and decide quickly to ensure stability,

[Howard]

It looks like you've missed my point in your reply to my post. Separating the juniors and seniors in my argument is in programming only.

All HFL clubs have, to varying degrees, a junior component. They all work extremely hard in maintaining their numbers and various programs, they are not an "afterthought'. I'm not suggesting that clubs discard their junior programs.

A more equitable junior competition may make the process of being relegated a bit more palatable.

The clubs don't want a different program for the juniors is the issue here. They want the programs the same as the A & B grades.

I know that (some) clubs don't want it, but it may be a case of the competition needs to look at it for the sake of the whole competition.

Junior games would still be played every Saturday morning, clubs still have their respective junior programs, in actual fact clubs with full complements will see little change. The stronger clubs (at junior level) in Country division have every right to demand a more equitable competition for their junior teams, similarly, Mt Lofty or any current central team, have the right to expect a suitable, strong competition if they ever find themselves being relegated.

It's a case of (the HFL board) looking outside the square to make changes, it's currently dysfunctional, to make it a more equitable program for all clubs.

[cracka]

It looks like you've missed my point in your reply to my post. Separating the juniors and seniors in my argument is in programming only.

All HFL clubs have, to varying degrees, a junior component. They all work extremely hard in maintaining their numbers and various programs, they are not an "afterthought'. I'm not suggesting that clubs discard their junior programs.

A more equitable junior competition may make the process of being relegated a bit more palatable.

The clubs don't want a different program for the juniors is the issue here. They want the programs the same as the A & B grades.

I know that (some) clubs don't want it, but it may be a case of the competition needs to look at it for the sake of the whole competition.

Junior games would still be played every Saturday morning, clubs still have their respective junior programs, in actual fact clubs with full complements will see little change. The stronger clubs (at junior level) in Country division have every right to demand a more equitable competition for their junior teams, similarly, Mt Lofty or any current central team, have the right to expect a suitable, strong competition if they ever find themselves being relegated.

It's a case of (the HFL board) looking outside the square to make changes, it's currently dysfunctional, to make it a more equitable program for all clubs.

I think you'll find ALL clubs don't want a different program for juniors. It's impossible to program juniors at the same venue & on the same day as the seniors if you mix the divisions eg your A & B grade are in central but your juniors play some country teams because they are more equitable competition.

[R. White]

Wasn't it the case last year in the country division that the juniors didn't always play before the seniors????
I don't see what the big deal is, as long as the weeks where the seniors play at home, so do the juniors.
Surely there is someone with enough time and the brains to come up with a draw that has the strongest junior teams playing against each other and coordinate it so they play at home before the seniors. I am sure the kids would rather choose a better standard of footy then play a crap team just because its before the seniors.
the way I see it juniors and seniors could be completely separate and just manipulate the program so that when a team plays at home so does its juniors who cares if its the same team. gate takings would be the same and clubs in Mt Lofty's position probably wont lose their juniors. In fact they might even help them get back to div 1 when old enough!
It wont be easy but im sure it could be done.

[cracka]

Clubs want the juniors playing at the same venue whether home or away so that trainers etc don't have to be split up or travel from 1 venue to the next. Unfortunately in country div with some clubs not fielding all teams there were times when a clubs U13's played at 1 venue, J/C at another, S/C at another & that A & B grade somewhere else. The only way to fix this is to have it compulsory in country div to have to field A, B, S/C & J/C & if a club can't then they play in a separate division. It's no good just saying to clubs you only have to field 2 of the 3 junior grades as that's what most do & it causes the mess.

[Champ]

Clubs want the juniors playing at the same venue whether home or away so that trainers etc don't have to be split up or travel from 1 venue to the next. Unfortunately in country div with some clubs not fielding all teams there were times when a clubs U13's played at 1 venue, J/C at another, S/C at another & that A & B grade somewhere else. The only way to fix this is to have it compulsory in country div to have to field A, B, S/C & J/C & if a club can't then they play in a separate division. It's no good just saying to clubs you only have to field 2 of the 3 junior grades as that's what most do & it causes the mess.

Does this then indicate that consideration must be made/revisited for one division HFL in that:

14 Team Premier Division =
Mt Barker
Hahndorf
Uraidla
Mt Lofty
Torrens Valley ?
Bridgetwater
Lobethal
Onkas
Blackwood
Irnonbank
Echunga
Nairne
Meadows
Birdwood

Country Division
Sedan
Maccy
Kangy
Gums
Kersbrook
Milang
Any over spill teams from the Premier Div (C's)

The country divisions likely to be a 6-7 team comp soon anyway.
If sides can fullfil all grades and win a GF they can apply to go up which would see the country division soon swallowed by the Premier Division and the Country Div then becomes Super C'Grade Sunday's.

[cracka]

This is how it was this year not including any central clubs having a 2nd side in.
S/C Meadows, Nairne, Birdwood, Echunga, Gum
J/C Meadows, Nairne, Birdwood, Echunga, Kersbrook, Maccy, Kangarilla
U13 Meadows, Nairne, Birdwood, Kersbrook, Maccy, Gum, Sedan
Have a go at doing a draw where teams can all play together most weeks. Good luck
Maybe put any replies on the country forum.

[the wonder elephant]

I believe it can be automatic/compulsory.

Spoon Club in Central will know they are being relegated.

Premiership Club in Country is automatically promoted.

It is not until later in the year when Clubs must nominate teams for the following season.

If the Premiership Country Club fails to nominate a full compliment, then the Spoon Club from Central is "promoted" back to Central.

It is not that hard to work out really. This way, both the JC/SC/B/A commitment for Central is still respected AND compulsory promotion/relegation is enforced.

Just a thought on this one and I agree with your post regarding promotion relegation , isn't the relegation decided on the total performance of the club in central and promotion only decided on when your a grade finishes ?

[Armytank]

yep, something else that should be looked at

[cracka]

Does this then indicate that consideration must be made/revisited for one division HFL in that:

14 Team Premier Division =
Mt Barker
Hahndorf
Uraidla
Mt Lofty
Torrens Valley ?
Bridgetwater
Lobethal
Onkas
Blackwood
Irnonbank
Echunga
Nairne
Meadows
Birdwood

Country Division
Sedan
Maccy
Kangy
Gums
Kersbrook
Milang
Any over spill teams from the Premier Div (C's)

The country divisions likely to be a 6-7 team comp soon anyway.
If sides can fullfil all grades and win a GF they can apply to go up which would see the country division soon swallowed by the Premier Division and the Country Div then becomes Super C'Grade Sunday's.

Those would be "hard decisions the HFL would have to make" for sure.

Personally would hate to see it go to a 14 team premier div, would prefer 2 x 8 divisions.

Central (Div 1) (based on this years results)
Uraidla
Mt Barker
Hahndorf
Lobethal
Onkas
Torrens Valley/Sedan Cambrai
Blackwood
Ironbank

Country (Div 2)
Bridgewater
Mt Lofty
Echunga/Maccy
Kersbrook/Gums
Meadows/Kangarilla
Birdwood
Nairne
Litllehampton/2nd Mt Barker (we all know this needs to happen)

Clubs must have A, B, S/C & J/C sides & promotion/relegation is compulsory.

Or split into North & South where Strathalbyn & Langhorne Creek could be invited back into the league & make 2 x 9 divisions.

Yes, NO BLACKWOOD, they belong in SFL of SAAFL in my opinion.

Anyway that just my personal thoughts.

[On The Pine]

This is how it was this year not including any central clubs having a 2nd side in.
S/C Meadows, Nairne, Birdwood, Echunga, Gum
J/C Meadows, Nairne, Birdwood, Echunga, Kersbrook, Maccy, Kangarilla
U13 Meadows, Nairne, Birdwood, Kersbrook, Maccy, Gum, Sedan
Have a go at doing a draw where teams can all play together most weeks. Good luck
Maybe put any replies on the country forum.

The issue of dwindling junior numbers at Country clubs has been raised multiple times without an outcome. The most sensible solution is to have two colts teams instead of three. U14.5's and U17.5's. Other leagues already have gone down this track. But because all clubs vote on the issue which affects Country only, it gets voted down primarily because Central clubs think they will lose U13 players to Country's U14.5's. (Or so I'm led to believe)