SANFL Junior codes

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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Lightning McQueen » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:58 pm

wild dog wrote:As a proud northern suburbs lad myself....... Glenunga. :oops: There I said it.

Did you play at the Panthers?
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby whufc » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:15 pm

@Lightning

The Downs is one of the best run amateur clubs in the state. Brilliant coaches who the clubs put a lot time and additional training into.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby gadj1976 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:33 pm

Tony Clifton wrote:Where is the push for altering rules and modifying competitions coming from?

Is it because player numbers are decreasing? Is retention getting more difficult? Coach/parent behaviour driving people away.

Or do governing bodies legitimately think this is the best format for kids to play? No finals, no score, no tackling


SANFL/AFL

Yes. Yes. Not necessarily. Basketball is a big factor at our club. Comps are during the week, so kids don't train. They also get more exposure to the ball at basketball so they're less inclined to play footy - and then there are injuries and the body contact nature of the sport.

Governing bodies do, parents not necessarily.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby wild dog » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:11 pm

Lightning McQueen wrote:
wild dog wrote:As a proud northern suburbs lad myself....... Glenunga. :oops: There I said it.

Did you play at the Panthers?


No my senior career was underwhelming at best. To have that time again.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Q. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:46 pm

Pag wrote:This. Society as a whole cuddles our kids so much that any sign of possibly hurting their feelings ('losing' in this case), and we change the rules to suit. Kids are resilient creatures when they are given opportunities to fail. Unfortunately society keeps taking these opportunities away by the 'everyone wins' approach, eventually making adults who can't deal with any small sign of adversity or difficulty in their lives.

This isn't just in footy or sport by the way, all aspects of society.


By far the biggest influence in self-resilience is genetics. The second biggest influence is the family unit.

Social sports have a minute influence on building resilience in children.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Q. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:57 pm

There is literally over three decades of peer-reviewed research that demonstrates when coaches that emphasize skill development and mastery, youth are more likely to show positive outcomes whereas coaching behaviours that emphasize winning and comparisons with others are associated with negative outcomes including anxiety and stress, conflict with peers, less sportsman-like behaviour, and negative developmental outcomes.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby wild dog » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:34 pm

Q. wrote:There is literally over three decades of peer-reviewed research that demonstrates when coaches that emphasize skill development and mastery, youth are more likely to show positive outcomes whereas coaching behaviours that emphasize winning and comparisons with others are associated with negative outcomes including anxiety and stress, conflict with peers, less sportsman-like behaviour, and negative developmental outcomes.


Along with your previous post on the genetics / family unit, that is interesting stuff. Off the cuff I guess it would correlate with my observations and changing in attitude over the last couple of years. Once again raising my hat to the good coaching my lad (and myself) has been subject to. What the whole sport / competing /winning / losing can do is allow you to view your own or other kids in this situation, which we cant do if we just said nice game, you all did equally well, all sing the song and skip off home.

I think the key issue you raise here is over emphasizing the win or loss. When they grapple with a skill and overcome their deficiency, the enthusiasm is much greater than winning a game.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Q. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:02 pm

wild dog wrote:When they grapple with a skill and overcome their deficiency, the enthusiasm is much greater than winning a game.


Bang on. Extrinsic rewards and “winning” mean far less to them than to adults.

The article “Fun Integration Theory: Towards Sustaining Children and Adolescents Sport Participation,” in the Journal of Physical Activity & Health, 2014, had 'winning' ranked at #48 in a child's definition of 'fun' in sports.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Jetters » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:46 pm

Q. wrote:
wild dog wrote:When they grapple with a skill and overcome their deficiency, the enthusiasm is much greater than winning a game.


Bang on. Extrinsic rewards and “winning” mean far less to them than to adults.

The article “Fun Integration Theory: Towards Sustaining Children and Adolescents Sport Participation,” in the Journal of Physical Activity & Health, 2014, had 'winning' ranked at #48 in a child's definition of 'fun' in sports.


Good chat.

These ideas, known to administrators of sporting codes, inform these types of decisions and format/rule adjustments. They are not well known by parents. Adults tend to reflect their own values onto the kids and their experiences and you get this situation where adults think winning/losing means much more to kids than what it really does as demonstrated by research.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Jetters » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:56 pm

gadj1976 wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:Where is the push for altering rules and modifying competitions coming from?

Is it because player numbers are decreasing? Is retention getting more difficult? Coach/parent behaviour driving people away.

Or do governing bodies legitimately think this is the best format for kids to play? No finals, no score, no tackling


SANFL/AFL

Yes. Yes. Not necessarily. Basketball is a big factor at our club. Comps are during the week, so kids don't train. They also get more exposure to the ball at basketball so they're less inclined to play footy - and then there are injuries and the body contact nature of the sport.

Governing bodies do, parents not necessarily.


This a great point re basketball. Basketball is the best designed sport for kid's sporting development; there's 1 ball between 10 players (footy 1 to 36...thank god its been reduced in younger age groups. Many parents/traditionalists opposed this), you have to dribble the ball when you move developing ball skills (footy you just run), everyone is always in the game and having to make defisions (footy, particularly kids footy, often has half the players waiting for the ball to return to their area of the field), you tend to practice with a ball each dribbling and shooting, again improving ball skills (footy there is often few balls used at once), etc etc.

Its more than just athleticism that allows basketballers to transition well to footy.

You probably need fewer modifications to a kids bball game as you do for footy because it is already set up for kids to develop.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Tony Clifton » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:13 pm

IMO the problem isn't winning, keeping score and finals themselves.

It's when those carrots influence how coaches coach. Overplay their best players, berate players for mistakes, focus on the result rather than developing their players and making sure they enjoy themselves.

I think there are benefits for the kids in having all of those things.

They learn game sense skills. We're behind so need to move the ball quickly - must score. We're defending a slim lead. Hit the boundary. We're kicking with the wind. Long and direct. We're kicking into the wind. Retain possession.

Must win game to make the finals. Handling that pressure. Experiencing the butterflies in the stomach feeling in the morning on the way to a final.

Learning to win with grace. Learning to lose with dignity.

These are all positive things that are good for development IMO that get taken away in a scoreless, ladderless competition.

Maybe it is impossible for coaches to disassociate themselves from tangibles like winning/finals etc?
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby LaughingKookaburra » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:44 pm

Playing Primary School footy we didn’t play for premiership points and it never bothered me personally for the very large majority. Realistically it wasn’t until I reached year 6,7 where results began to really mean anything. The reason for that is that you are then starting to be identified through SANFL clubs and SAPSASA. Don’t see an issue with all this personally as long as you keep score. No need to have ladders ect in my own opinion.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Pag » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:27 pm

LaughingKookaburra wrote:Playing Primary School footy we didn’t play for premiership points and it never bothered me personally for the very large majority. Realistically it wasn’t until I reached year 6,7 where results began to really mean anything. The reason for that is that you are then starting to be identified through SANFL clubs and SAPSASA. Don’t see an issue with all this personally as long as you keep score. No need to have ladders ect in my own opinion.

I rememebr doing the same. Saturday school footy was just a warm-up for the club game on Sunday.

FWIW, I've coached at SAPSASA District Level for the past two years and scores and ladders are very much kept, including trophies and medaillions for the winenrs of each division. Even has promotion/relegation.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby beef » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:30 pm

Pag wrote:
LaughingKookaburra wrote:Playing Primary School footy we didn’t play for premiership points and it never bothered me personally for the very large majority. Realistically it wasn’t until I reached year 6,7 where results began to really mean anything. The reason for that is that you are then starting to be identified through SANFL clubs and SAPSASA. Don’t see an issue with all this personally as long as you keep score. No need to have ladders ect in my own opinion.

I rememebr doing the same. Saturday school footy was just a warm-up for the club game on Sunday.

FWIW, I've coached at SAPSASA District Level for the past two years and scores and ladders are very much kept, including trophies and medaillions for the winenrs of each division. Even has promotion/relegation.

Assume relegation in your case
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Pag » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:37 pm

beef wrote:
Pag wrote:
LaughingKookaburra wrote:Playing Primary School footy we didn’t play for premiership points and it never bothered me personally for the very large majority. Realistically it wasn’t until I reached year 6,7 where results began to really mean anything. The reason for that is that you are then starting to be identified through SANFL clubs and SAPSASA. Don’t see an issue with all this personally as long as you keep score. No need to have ladders ect in my own opinion.

I rememebr doing the same. Saturday school footy was just a warm-up for the club game on Sunday.

FWIW, I've coached at SAPSASA District Level for the past two years and scores and ladders are very much kept, including trophies and medaillions for the winners of each division. Even has promotion/relegation.

Assume relegation in your case

Relegation year one, a year of consolidation this year. Tough gig this coaching thing.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Tony Clifton » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:41 pm

Soccer in England

The football coach of an under-10s side has been fired after he insisted he was not there so the boys could have fun – he was "only interested in winning".

Justin Byrne, who coached a local village boys' team in Buckinghamshire, said parents who complained when their child did not make the first team were "not doing their sons any favours".

Any parents who disagreed were "weak-minded" and "think sport is about knitting".

Mr Byrne, 42, outlined his views in an email to parents at Chalfont St Peter's Football Club in Buckinghamshire – and four days later was fired.

In his email, the coach, who had managed the under 10s for more than two years, told parents: ‘I am only interested in winning. I don’t care about equal play time or any other communist view of sport.

"Those that are not as good need to work harder or demonstrate more during training, or change sports."

Mr Byrne, a father-of-three who runs a recruitment firm in London, added:"You are not doing your son any favours by suggesting the world is fair or non-competitive.

"Everything they are likely to do in life will be competitive so my view is get them used to it."

The coach is now considering taking legal action against the club and says he was not given the opportunity to defend himself before he was given the sack.

He told the Daily Mail: "I call a spade a spade and everyone knows I don’t like to dress things up.

"That’s just me. The fact is that we have got a weaker-minded group of individuals who think sport is about knitting."

A spokesman for the village team confirmed Mr Byrne had been sacked following complaints from parents about the email.

He said the aim of the club was just "to get as many children playing football as possible".
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby LaughingKookaburra » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:48 pm

Pag wrote:
LaughingKookaburra wrote:Playing Primary School footy we didn’t play for premiership points and it never bothered me personally for the very large majority. Realistically it wasn’t until I reached year 6,7 where results began to really mean anything. The reason for that is that you are then starting to be identified through SANFL clubs and SAPSASA. Don’t see an issue with all this personally as long as you keep score. No need to have ladders ect in my own opinion.

I rememebr doing the same. Saturday school footy was just a warm-up for the club game on Sunday.

FWIW, I've coached at SAPSASA District Level for the past two years and scores and ladders are very much kept, including trophies and medaillions for the winenrs of each division. Even has promotion/relegation.


Kind of backs up the point I was trying to make. Back in the early/mid 90’s the SFL didn’t have juniors below under 14’s. Primary School footy was all we had and local clubs would work with Primary Schools in their zones once players hit grade 6/7. It was all about development and enjoying the game at PS level rather than worrying about premierships. Back then also the SFL was arguably the best Junior comp in SA 14’s-18’s and South Adelaide were always in the top end come seasons end. I don’t think there is any harm in not playing for premierships until 12-13 years of age myself. I do however think it’s important to keep scores though.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Lightning McQueen » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:23 pm

LaughingKookaburra wrote:
Kind of backs up the point I was trying to make. Back in the early/mid 90’s the SFL didn’t have juniors below under 14’s. Primary School footy was all we had and local clubs would work with Primary Schools in their zones once players hit grade 6/7. It was all about development and enjoying the game at PS level rather than worrying about premierships. Back then also the SFL was arguably the best Junior comp in SA 14’s-18’s and South Adelaide were always in the top end come seasons end. I don’t think there is any harm in not playing for premierships until 12-13 years of age myself. I do however think it’s important to keep scores though.

I dominated primary school footy, Grade 6 was the best four years of my life.
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Pag » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:02 pm

Lightning McQueen wrote:
LaughingKookaburra wrote:
Kind of backs up the point I was trying to make. Back in the early/mid 90’s the SFL didn’t have juniors below under 14’s. Primary School footy was all we had and local clubs would work with Primary Schools in their zones once players hit grade 6/7. It was all about development and enjoying the game at PS level rather than worrying about premierships. Back then also the SFL was arguably the best Junior comp in SA 14’s-18’s and South Adelaide were always in the top end come seasons end. I don’t think there is any harm in not playing for premierships until 12-13 years of age myself. I do however think it’s important to keep scores though.

I dominated primary school footy, Grade 6 was the best four years of my life.

I can only imagine you tearing Ridley Reserve to shreds every Saturday morning. That is, if it was around when you were a kid. ;)
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Re: SANFL Junior codes

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:04 am

Pag wrote:I can only imagine you tearing Ridley Reserve to shreds every Saturday morning. That is, if it was around when you were a kid. ;)


School footy in our day was played Friday afternoon's after lunch, same as cricket, it was an excellent concept as most of the teachers would bring their students out to watch, great atmosphere.
They'd have soccer and netball happening at the same time too.
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