Permits - the age old debate

[Footy Chick]

Thought i'd stick this up straight out of the Update and you can all argue among yourselves.... from the pen of the Big Cheese.

You’re on the Permit Committee

Your over-arching mantra and responsibility as a permit committee member is to
1. Act without bias
2. Do what is good for footy in general.
a. That includes
i. Doing what is right for the player.
ii. Doing what is right for team playing against
iii. Setting precedent for or against the same club for the next year when the club comes back with “but last year”.
3. Sift through violin playing stories with very little information to back it up.
a. Refer to previous applications from the same club who have gilded the lily on applications. (polite way of describing it)
4. Stand to attention because the club applying never tries it on much less has been caught on the fib.
5. Refer to Rules and Regulations
6. Make moral judgements because Rules and Regulations don’t cover the permit application so you need to refer to Point # 2 which is key to the board charter and purpose.
7. Put up with Bullsh1t protests for and against after.
8. Have a good memory for next year when a club flips on their position in Point 7.

Fill in the box, reply and remember, We’ll be keeping emails for 2024 if we have to refer to Pts. 7 or 8

Permit # Yes No
1
2
3
4


Permit # 1
Consider this.
Club X has A and B playing Elimination finals.
Player Y plays 18 A grade matches throughout the year and crucially NOT one B grade match in the minor round
Player Y gets dropped to the B grade for the Elimination Final of which both A and B grade are playing.
The A grade looses and B grade wins.
Not only can Player Y play in the B grade the following week, he or she does NOT even need a permit to play B grade.

Flip the story a bit to this

Until the very last round, Club X A grade was in a fight to dodge relegation (or even to play finals) - Point is they were playing for something and lets be brutally frank given the success of A grade can be paramount to either immediate considerations of finals or what division the club is in 2024, what that club is fighting for is more important than B, C or D grade success.
Club X has A grade finish 6th and B grade finish 5th.
Player Y plays 12 A grade matches then in Rd 13 gets dropped to the B grade for the rest of the season keeping in mind the precarious state of the A grade and their motivation for success means they’re picking the best 21 they can.

In concert with considering that it is indisputable the player was dropped from the A grade whilst the A grade was fighting to avoid relegation that as it turned out until the last quarter of the Rd 18 match, as a permit committee member, are you giving Player Y a permit or not ?

Permit # 2
Club AA applies for a permit for an 18yo.
He plays BBBCBBB (6B – 1C) in that order.
He played 10 U17.5 matches on a permit for an over-ager for same club.
Club AA applies for permit to play C grade.

Are you giving the player a permit in Permit # 2 or not ?

Permit # 3
Player M plays 8 A grade and 8 B grade
Rd 1 – 9 he/she played 8 A grade.
Rd 10 – 18 he/she played 8 B grade i.e., 50/50
Technically, needs a permit. Are you giving it or not ?

Permit # 4
Player P from the same club as Permit 3 plays 8 A grade and 8 B grade
Rd 1 – 9 he/she played 8 B grade.
Rd 10 – 18 he/she played 8 A grade i.e., 50/50
Technically, needs a permit. Are you giving it or not ?

Yes or no to #3 and #4 ?

[Trader]

1a - doesn't need a permit, free to play.
1b - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
2 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
3 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
4 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.

[Lightning McQueen]

#1: loses*

[The Old Fellow]

Easy solution. No permits are issued, irrelevant if it is round 1 or finals. Then there are no grey areas or clubs pleading for an out. It is up to the club to manage their players and not go cap in hand to the permit committee when they fail to do so. Then everyone knows where they stand.
You may get the hard luck story but you get them wherever. This way there is no favouritism and the club the player plays for or the opposition can't scream foul.

[whufc]

Genuine question, does the system need to be that complicated.

In our league (only A & B Grade) we have a real simple system, albeit it does allow B Grade sides the ability to stack and imo we dont have the required amount of games right at the moment.

Its as simple as if you play at least 3 games in the B Grade out of 14 you qualify for finals (we have a low amount due to player numbers etc but i think it needs to be higher)

Doesn't matter when or how them games are played, if you play 3 you qualify.

We also have the rule that if a senior colt plays say 2 b grade games but 10 in the seniors colts he still qualifies as games below the b grade count.

Its not perfect but its so simple and there is no 'asking for exemptions'.....its simply not a thing.

[S Demon]

1a - doesn't need a permit, free to play.
1b - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
2 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
3 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
4 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.

Isn't your answer to 2,3 & 4 the whole point of asking for a permit?

[Trader]

1a - doesn't need a permit, free to play.
1b - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
2 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
3 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.
4 - no permit, did not play more than 50% of matches in the lower grade.

Isn't your answer to 2,3 & 4 the whole point of asking for a permit?

Yes, and I wouldn't award one.

Why should a club get approval to push an A-grader into their B's?
It's unfair on the opposition.
It's also unfair on the 23rd B-grader who now misses out.

I get why clubs want to, they are trying to put the strongest side possible on the park, but I don't think they should be allowed to.
I'd scrap permits altogether if it were upto me.

Consider this, a side struggles first half of the year, but then they find form, regain a few players and make a charge for finals, moving from 9th, to 8th, to 7th and eventually 6th. In the last game of the season they win by 15 goals, but fall just short, missing 5th spot by percentage.

Should they be allowed to apply to play finals?

Of course not, they didn't qualify.

Same goes for players.
If you didn't qualify why should you be allowed to play anyway?

[Furry Wall]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say the illustrious leader was caught out doing something Wong on the weekend

[beef]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say the illustrious leader was caught out doing something Wong on the weekend

Player W played B grade round 1 / 16 / 17 / 18, played A grade every round from 2-15, does he play B grade finals if A grade are out?

[Sticks28]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say the illustrious leader was caught out doing something Wong on the weekend

Player W played B grade round 1 / 16 / 17 / 18, played A grade every round from 2-15, does he play B grade finals if A grade are out?

Surely not - I don't know the permit/rules well enough but I think he shouldn't be able to play B grade is my personal opinion. Playing 14 A grade games & Only 4 B grade games seem like you shouldn't be able to play.

[mighty hounds]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say the illustrious leader was caught out doing something Wong on the weekend

Player W played B grade round 1 / 16 / 17 / 18, played A grade every round from 2-15, does he play B grade finals if A grade are out?

Surely not - I don't know the permit/rules well enough but I think he shouldn't be able to play B grade is my personal opinion. Playing 14 A grade games & Only 4 B grade games seem like you shouldn't be able to play.

Yep it's correct. Rumour has it the Scotch footy director and President had lunch with the League Pres and then he overruled the permit committee who had originally declined the permit. Said player Played 14 A grade games throughout the year as well. I believe the Pres sent out a memo justifying his actions of overturning the declined permit.

[The Old Fellow]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say the illustrious leader was caught out doing something Wong on the weekend

Player W played B grade round 1 / 16 / 17 / 18, played A grade every round from 2-15, does he play B grade finals if A grade are out?

Surely not - I don't know the permit/rules well enough but I think he shouldn't be able to play B grade is my personal opinion. Playing 14 A grade games & Only 4 B grade games seem like you shouldn't be able to play.

Yep it's correct. Rumour has it the Scotch footy director and President had lunch with the League Pres and then he overruled the permit committee who had originally declined the permit. Said player Played 14 A grade games throughout the year as well. I believe the Pres sent out a memo justifying his actions of overturning the declined permit.

And this is why permits should NOT exist. Stops any rumours whether proven correct or not. Mud sticks. As I have said before it is up to the clubs to ensure their players qualify. If a player qualifies as per the rules they play, if they don't they don't.

[Footy Chick]

Imagine this!

St John’s removed from VAFA grand final after fielding ineligible player.

A local footy team has been withdrawn from its grand final having fielded an ineligible player in a preliminary final victory. Here’s what we know.

Brayden May
Brayden May
Follow
@braydenjmay
less than 2 min read
September 13, 2023 - 5:36PM
News Corp Australia Sports Newsroom


A Victorian Amateur Football Association team has been booted from the grand final after they were found to have fielded an ineligible player during its preliminary final.

Division 4 club St Johns Old Collegians, who are based in Keysborough, confirmed on Wednesday afternoon it would not take to the field in the reserves decider against North Brunswick on Sunday.

It comes after a player took to the field in the preliminary final win against Box Hill North, who will now take St John’s place in the grand final.

The player in question was deemed to not be eligible after not playing the required four reserves games.

This was because he played in both the seniors and reserves games during the final round of the home-and-away season.

Under VAFA rules, only the senior game counts towards a player’s eligibility requirements.

Due to this, the player was stuck on three reserves games.

He then played in the seniors’ first semi-final loss earlier this month and returned to the reserves after the first team was eliminated.

“The situation arose when a player who played 2 games on the one day (reserves and seniors) in Round 18 to help out, we call doubling up, this is allowed under the VAFA rules and we have done it on many occasions this year as have other clubs,” St John’s said in a statement.


“Therefore our finals win in the prelim was not recognised because we had an ineligible player have been removed and we are out of the finals race this year which is terrible news for the club and especially the reserves.

“We accept the VAFA decision; no one at the club knew of the senior game negating the reserve game in the total game tally as a part of the finals eligibility rule.

“The player’s intention was to help out his teammates and was honourable and we ask that everyone gets behind our reserves who have had a great finish to the year.”

[amber_fluid]

Ouch!

[jo172]

Should have called Westminster

[beef]

Round 1-15 did not play
Round 16 B grade
Round 17 A grade
Round 18 B grade
First week finals did not play
Second week finals did not play
Preliminary final A grade
Should this be permitted? Don't you have to play 4 games to qualify?
Unsure why they didn't play first 15 rounds (assume Injured??)

[gadj1976]

Round 1-15 did not play
Round 16 B grade
Round 17 A grade
Round 18 B grade
First week finals did not play
Second week finals did not play
Preliminary final A grade
Should this be permitted? Don't you have to play 4 games to qualify?
Unsure why they didn't play first 15 rounds (assume Injured??)

Why didn't they play 1st and 2nd week of finals?

[beef]

Round 1-15 did not play
Round 16 B grade
Round 17 A grade
Round 18 B grade
First week finals did not play
Second week finals did not play
Preliminary final A grade
Should this be permitted? Don't you have to play 4 games to qualify?
Unsure why they didn't play first 15 rounds (assume Injured??)

Why didn't they play 1st and 2nd week of finals?

No idea
Round 17 A grade game was actually a forfeit as well so only actually played 2 games

[jake the snake]

The forfeit definitely does not count towards games played

[Down the Hill]

Yes it does. The team that receives the forfeit is entitled to load a team sheet on PlayHQ. That's been a rule for many many years.