Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

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Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby wenchbarwer » Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:37 am

Because I did it in the SFL subforum as well, that's why. And I couldn't find an applicable thread to post it in...

Whilst I don't watch as much AdelFL as most on here, one name I thought would have snuck in would be big Tom Carter from Goody Saints.

From the Advertiser, in late December:

The Adelaide Footy League has been packed with some of SA’s top footballers for decades.

With season 2025 around the corner, we’ve consulted with a number of league insiders to rank our top 40 SAAFL/AdFL players of the 21st Century.

The list is made up of players who produced strong football in division one, meaning some big names from lower divisions have missed out.

Footballing ability, achievements, awards and impact were taken into account when selecting the order and while some players rank high for sheer amount of achievements, others are placed based on their overall ability.

Here is our list from 40 to 1.

40. DYLAN AUCIELLO
(Payneham Norwood Union)


The former Norwood defender was one of PNU’s best after returning to the club in 2017.

A tall and smart asset down back, Auciello read the play as well as anyone to take strong intercept marks and deliver out of the backline with efficiency.


Was named in three teams of the year and was an important player in PNU’s 2019 grand final win.

39. BEN WATKINS
(Rostrevor OC)


One of Rostrevor OC’s top players of the past 25 years, Watkins produced a number of strong seasons in the top division.

A hard runner who found plenty of the footy and always made the right decisions under pressure to either release teammates or create goalkicking opportunities.

Made two teams of the year in 2004 and 2005.

38. NICK FAVRETTO
(Goodwood Saints)


The current Goodwood captain has come into his own in recent seasons to become a top midfielder in the AdFL.

A big bodied midfielder who hits contests hard to win the footy and gain metres for his side while also moving up front to hit the scoreboard, Favretto remains a dangerous part of the Saints lineup.

Made three teams of the year in 2020, 2021 and 2022, won the D1 medal in 2022 and was part of the 2020 flag.

37. TOBY SCHULZ
(St Peter’s OC)


A key player for SPOC through a number of years, former Norwood player Schulz played an important part in the club’s only D1 flag this century.

A versatile player who could play at either end of the ground, Schulz possessed elite skills and often hurt opposition with his classy distribution.

Was part of two D1 teams of the year and was best on ground in the 2012 premiership win.

36. NICK JOLLY
(Payneham Norwood Union)


A damaging ruck/forward utility throughout his time with PNU, Jolly remains one of the top players of the past 25 years.

Hardworking big who covered ground as well as anyone his size in the competition, often giving his mids first use, taking big marks and hitting the scoreboard.

Part of two teams of the year in 2017 and 2021 and played in the club’s 2019 D1 premiership on top of three more flags in lower divisions.

35. SEAN COARD
(Seaton Ramblers)


One of the best division one players during Seaton Ramblers’ time in the top flight, Coard remains one of the best AdFL players of the 21st Century.

A tireless worker around the ground who could win the ball in the air and at ground level and cut opposition apart with his delivery to teammates.

Appeared in two D1 teams of the year in 2006 and 2008.

34. JAKE PITT
(Prince Alfred OC)


A versatile weapon at his peak for PAOC.

Pitt was an athletic and skilled player in the air and at ground level for the Old Reds who could dominate in a number of roles, utilising his all-round skills and footy IQ.

Has appeared in three teams of the year and was a big part of the club’s 2016 and 2021 premiership wins.

33. NIGEL OSBORN
(Brighton Bombers)


Brighton’s top performing player of the past 25 years, Osborn has been a force through the midfield.

A tough player with a relentless approach to the game, Osborn has no issue doing the dirty work for the Bombers and taking over games with his contested footy work and pinpoint disposal.

Has been named in the 2020, 2022 and 2023 teams of the year and claimed the D1 medal in 2020.

32. WAYNE WEIDEMANN
(Kilburn, Gaza)


While Adelaide Crows cult figure Wayne Weidemann only spent two seasons in division one of the AdFL, he achieved all he possibly could during that short period.

A dominant player on the ball who hit the contest hard, found teammates with damaging disposal and hit the scoreboard, the Weid was unstoppable for both Kilburn and Gaza.

Was in the 2002 and 2003 teams of the year and player-coached Gaza to its 2003 premiership, the same year he won the league medal.

31. TRENT HEFFERNAN
(Port District)


One of Port District’s most consistent players throughout the 21st Century.

A dominant utility at his best who can do damage as a strong body on the ball or play up front and bag important majors.

Was named in three consecutive teams of the year from 2017-2019 and has also won two premierships with his club in 2022 and 2024.

30. SHANE JORDAN
(Salisbury North)

One of Salisbury North’s top performing players throughout the 2000s.

A tough player who could win plenty of the ball for the Hawks in the contest and deal to teammates efficiently, Jordan often put his side on his back on the way to big wins.

Appeared in five teams of the year between 2006 and 2013.

29. ANTHONY DEMPSEY
(Goodwood Saints)


One of the Adelaide Footy League’s most winning players, Dempsey has been an important part of a high amount of success at Goodwood Saints.

A solid contributor through the midfield throughout his time with the Saints, Dempsey’s ability to win the footy and provide important run and carry was valuable for his side.

Was selected for two teams of the year and was impressively part of all eight Saints D1 premierships so far.

28. DEAN CUTTING
(Salisbury North)


One of the top utilities in local SA footy through the 21st Century, Cutting was as dangerous as ever during his time with Salisbury North.

A strong player who played a number of roles across the forwardline and in the contest, Cutting often took big marks, connected well with midfielders and kicked big goals.

He was named in four teams of the year from 2006-2009 and finished runner-up in the D1 medal in 2008 by one vote.

27. LIAM DAVIS
(Payneham Norwood Union)


The Norwood premiership forward has been among the big standouts since joining Payneham Norwood Union.

A strong and athletic forward with great agility for his size, Davis has won a number of games for the Falcons with his aerial ability, link up play and goalkicking.

Has three Team of the Year appearances in 2016, 2019 and 2021 and booted four goals in the club’s 2019 premiership win.

26. DAN ROBERTS
(Gepps Cross, St Peter’s OC)


A superstar ruck/utility who now plays for Hahndorf, Roberts was dominant for both Gepps Cross and St Peter’s OC during his time int he AdFL.

An athletic and skilled player who could give midfielders first use, take big marks around the ground, distribute well and also hit the scoreboard.

Was named in three teams of the year in 2007, 2012 and 2013 and was a standout in SPOC’s 2012 premiership win.

25. WILL DALWOOD
(Prince Alfred OC)


One of the top utilities in recent AdFL history, Dalwood has often been a player who has flown under the radar.

With the ability to play in the ruck, as a key defender or at times up the ground, and boasting elite hand and foot skills, Dalwood could impact the game in a number of ways.

Appeared in four teams of the year from 2018-2021 and played in PAOC’s 2016 and 2021 premierships.

24. TIM BACCANELLO
(Rostrevor OC)


Undoubtedly one of Rostrevor OC’s top players this century, Baccanello has achieved it all in the AdFL.

A tough ball magnet in the contest who racks up high disposal accounts for fun, Baccanello played an important role in some of the strongest ROCS sides.

Was named in three teams of the year from 2019 to 2022, won the D1 medal in 2019 and played an important part in his club’s 2013 and 2017 premierships.

23. MARK DEMASI
(Goodwood Saints)


One of Goodwood’s many standouts during the 2000s, Demasi was a reliable forward utility throughout an enjoyable period of success for his club.

A strong and athletic player with a high IQ up front, Demasi could take big marks and kick important goals while also setting up his teammates.

Appeared in the 2006 and 2008 team of the year, shared the 2008 league medal with teammate David Bartel and was also named best on ground in the 2008 premiership win, one of many he experienced with the Saints.

22. JOE HAY
(Salisbury North)


A consistent standout during his time with Salisbury North.

Hay was a tough and tireless player who covered ground well and racked up plenty of disposals each week, either finding teammates efficiently or creating goalkicking opportunities.

Was named in five teams of the year from 2009-2014 and also won the D1 medal in 2010.

21. MALCOLM POHLNER
(Goodwood, PHOS Camden)


A versatile and dangerous player at his peak, Pohlner experienced D1 premiership success at both PHOS Camden and Goodwood.

Pohlner was a dangerous player around the footy who competed well in the air, boasted reliable disposal and had the ability to go forward.

Was part of the 2000, 2004 and 2005 teams of the year and won a premiership with PHOS Camden in 2000 before becoming an important part of Goodwood’s big run of D1 flags from 2005-2009.

20. BEN CASEY
(Broadview)


One of Broadview’s top players throughout the 2000s, Casey played a major role in the club’s D1 success.

A classy player who won plenty of the ball each week and constantly dictated play with his disposal and decision making.

Casey captained the Tigers from 2006-2007, helped the club to a D1 premiership in 2004, won four club B&Fs and a league medal and was picked in four teams of the year.

19. CHRIS RADETTI
(Gaza/Payneham Norwood Union)


Undoubtedly a Gaza legend, Radetti was one of the most consistent players in D1 of the AdFL throughout the 2000s for the Eagles and PNU.

A high IQ player, Radetti could change a game with his ability to stream off of half-back or do damage on the ball through his efficient disposal.

Was named in the 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013 teams of the year and won two D1 flags with Gaza in 2003 and 2011.

18. ADAM PERRYMAN
(Prince Alfred OC)


A natural leader and a dominant half-back flanker at his best, Perryman was one of the top players in the AdFL during a strong PAOC period.

The former club captain often took teams apart with his ability to cut off attacks and find teammates efficiently to start rebound attacks and he also played at his best in big games.

Perryman was selected for Team of the Year in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2021 and was also best on ground in PAOC’s 2016 premiership win.

17. PAUL MERRITT
(Gaza)


Merritt emerged as one of the top players in local SA footy during the 2000s, dominating for Gaza to tally a number of personal and team successes.

A tough and hardworking player who boasted elite disposal and could break a game open with his footy smarts.

Merritt made five consecutive teams of the year from 2002 to 2006, claimed the league medal in 2006 and helped the Eagles to a D1 premiership in 2003.

16. MARK JONES
(Broadview)


A versatile and damaging player at his best, Jones remains as one of Broadview’s top players in the Adelaide Footy League.

The former Norwood player boasted brilliant hand and foot skills for the Tigers during his time in the top division and could do damage in the contest or up front as a reliable forward.

Jones was dominant in the 90s but also made three team of the years in 2000, 2002 and 2003 and helped his club to premiership success in 2004.

15. WILL O’MALLEY
(Rostrevor OC)


One of the most consistent AdFL players of the 21st Century, O’Malley boasts a number of major achievements for Rostrevor OC at the top local level.

A workhorse around the ground who racked up high disposal counts for fun through his courageous approach to the game, O’Malley was efficient under pressure for ROCS and often dictated play.

Was named in the D1 Team of the Year on five separate occasions, claimed the league medal in 2017 and played a key part in the club’s 2013 and 2017 flags.

14. WILL ABBOTT
(Old Ignatians)


A D2 medallist for Old Iggies, Abbott would become a regular for Norwood in the SANFL before returning to his local club to again dominated at division one level.

While he only has a couple D1 seasons under his belt, Abbott was a completely dominant player and also a standout captain in the competition, often leading by voice and example as a consistent ball magnet who played a tough, all-round brand of footy.

Made two teams of the year in 2017 and 2022 (captain).

13. HAYDEN JOLLY
(Prince Alfred OC)


Hayden Jolly’s consistency and success over a long period of time has made him one of the standout D1 AdFL players of the 21st Century.

The former Gold Coast and Glenelg player has been a weapon for PAOC in a number of roles, most recently dominating as a deadly user of the ball off of the backline or through the middle.

Has been named in four teams of the year in 2016, 2020, 2022 and 2023 and played in three division one premierships in 2016, 2021 and 2023.

12. SAM GRAY
(Port District)


Gray’s arrival at Port District in 2022 coincided with the club’s return to premiership form.

The former Port Adelaide and Sydney AFL midfielder/forward has been a consistent and dominant force for his local club in D1, often taking over as a skilled rover who finds the footy and gains important metres or moving up front to slot important goals.

Has made two teams of the year so far in 2022 and 2023 and has also played a key part in Port District’s 2022 and 2024 flags.

11. ALEX MCKAY
(Tea Tree Gully)


A supremely skilled onballer and top drawer leader, McKay forged a long-lasting legacy with Tea Tree Gully.

Often took control of big games for the Gullies with his ability to hit the contest, win the footy and either deal to teammates accurately or hit the scoreboard.

Won back-to-back D1 medals in 2015 and 2016, made three teams of the year in 2015, 2016 and 2018 (captain) and also led his side to a historic division one flag in 2o18.

10. MATT ILLMAN
(Goodwood Saints)


A classy centre square player who could move up front and often produced in the big games for the Saints, Illman was undoubtedly one of the top players in the competition at his peak.

Illman, who took over as captain in 2011, found plenty of the footy and damaged opposition with his disposal and quick decisions under pressure.

He made three Team of the Year appearances in 2007, 2009 and 2011 and played in Goodwood’s 2007, 2008, 2009, 2014 and 2015 premierships, kicking four goals in the 2014 big dance and also producing a best on ground performance in 2015.

9. JOSH HAND
(Gepps Cross, Tea Tree Gully)


Hand produced an impressive career during his time in division one, claiming two division one medals and making a number of Team of the Year appearances.

A tireless worker around the ground for Gepps Cross and then Tea Tree Gully, Hand was one of the toughest to stop in D1 when in form, attacking the footy relentlessly before finding teammates accurately under pressure.

Won the D1 medal in 2012 with the Rams before repeating the feat for the Gullies in a joint win with teammate Alex McKay and also made Team of the Year in 2012, 2014, 2015 and 2016.

8. SEB PAYNTER
(Adelaide Uni)


One of the greatest players in Uni history, former captain Seb Paynter stands out as one of the top AdFL players of the 21st Century.

A quintessential in-and-under midfielder who did plenty of the dirty work for his side, covered ground well and damaged opposition with his usage, Paynter won five straight club B&Fs from 2012-2017.

He was also named in the D1 Team of the Year in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017.

7. DREW LITSTER
(Rostrevor OC)


One of the greatest forwards in SAAFL/Adelaide Footy League history, Litster’s CV is arguably as good as any goalkicker in the state.

A strong, smart and skilled forward who made a habit of burning defenders with clever leads, taking big grabs, linking up with teammates and booting important goals, Litster tallied 1,241 majors during his time with Rostrevor OC.

He led division one goalkicking eight times, made the Team of the Year eight times between 2003-2012 and played a significant part in the 2013 ROCS flag.

6. ABE DAVIS
(Glenunga)


While Davis, a former Sydney, South Adelaide and Sturt utility, has only played two seasons in the AdFL, his impact for Glenunga has been significant.

Davis has been unstoppable as a midfielder, forward and sometimes ruck for the Rams in seasons 2023 and 2024, often single handedly winning games with his ability to find the footy and deal to teammates or move up front to take big marks and kick important goals.

Davis has won back-to-back Keith Sims OAM Medals since his arrival in the competition and has led Glenunga to two consecutive minor premierships, ultimately falling in the grand final in both years.

5. MARCUS TRIMBOLI
(Rostrevor OC)


Trimboli was highly regarded throughout the 2000s for Rostrevor OC and has often been considered as one of the club’s greatest ever players.

Captain of ROCS from 1998-2007 and a triple division two medallist, Trimboli was just as effective for his club in D1 as an athletic and supremely skilled player who often applied strong pressure around the ground, won plenty of the footy and hurt opposition teams with slick disposal.

He was named in the Team of the Year in 2001 and 2002 and was also a multiple time club B&F.

4. CRAIG HOLM
(Rostrevor OC)


A consistent and dominate presence around the ground through a number of successful years for ROCS.

At his best, Holm was a versatile, strong and highly skilled player who often produced through the midfield with the ability to win the footy, hit the scoreboard and set up others.

He won back-to-back D1 medals in 2013 and 2014, was named in the team of the year five times and was also best on ground in Rostrevor OC’s 2013 and 2017 div one premierships.

3. MATT SPENCER
(Goodwood Saints)


Another star during Goodwood’s era of dominance in division one, Spencer was one of the Saints’ most important players for a number of seasons.

A tall and strong key defender, Spencer could take over a game off of the backline, winning plenty of the footy in the air and at ground level before finding teammates with pinpoint accuracy.

He appeared in the D1 team of the year five times from 2002 to 2007 and played in four premierships from 2005 to 2008.

2. JACK TRENGOVE
(Prince Alfred OC)


Former Melbourne captain Jack Trengove’s arrival at Prince Alfred OC in season 2020 marked one of the most successful runs in the club’s history.

A dominant, tireless midfielder who can do it all from kicking important goals to setting up teammates with elite disposal or making big defensive plays, Trengove was a major catalyst behind PAOC’s three consecutive D1 grand final appearances from 2021 to 2023.

He won two premierships with the club including a best on ground performance in 2021, claimed the Keith Sims OAM Medal as the division’s top player in 2021 and also made three consecutive division one Team of the Year appearances, with one as captain.

1. DAVID BARTEL
(Goodwood Saints, Pooraka)


Captain during Goodwood’s run of five consecutive premierships from 2005 to 2009, Bartel’s resume well and truly speaks for itself.

A tough player and inspirational leader who did what was required for his side to emerge victorious, Bartel’s ability to win the footy, cut opposition up with his disposal and apply strong tackle pressure was characteristic of the Saints side during the 2000s.

Bartel was named in two D1 teams of the year with Pooraka in 2002 and 2003 and four for Goodwood in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2008.

He also won two league medals in 2005 and 2008 and was best on ground in two of his premiership wins.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby am Bays » Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:27 pm

Is the 40th best AdFL player better than the SFL's 25th best player?
Let that be a lesson to you Port, no one beats the Bays five times in a row in a GF and gets away with it!!!
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby jo172 » Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:29 pm

Read this when it was published, while it's obviously subjective and you could argue for the rest of time I thought it did a pretty good job in terms of identifying players
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby wenchbarwer » Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:53 pm

am Bays wrote:Is the 40th best AdFL player better than the SFL's 25th best player?


Yes
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby Jimmy_041 » Wed Jan 22, 2025 1:03 pm

IMO

I reckon Renfrey is dart boarding this as per usual

Agree about Bartel being #1
I would put both Holm and Davis above Trengove
Matt Spencer, Seb Payner & Will Abbott - all too high
McKay, Hand & Illman all should be way above Paynter

Still amazed McKay and Hand tied for the D1 medal in 2015 playing in the same side
Interesting question who was better. Probably need a TTG person who saw them both to discuss that
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby wenchbarwer » Wed Jan 22, 2025 1:15 pm

I just thought I'd chuck up these lists to initiate a bit of discussion, it's still far too long until the season proper kicks off!
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby Point man » Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:35 pm

Holm when he won his medals was the best player ive seen in the last 25 years. Coard from seaton was as hard as a cats head and up alot further on my list.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby bird of prey » Wed Jan 22, 2025 6:23 pm

I can’t really comment a great deal on the last 7-8 years, but can for the first probably 16.
The Weed was the most dominant I have seen at local level. His year in 2003 was such a big part in us winning the flag. But he did only spend 2 years in the league.
Shane Tuck was an amazing player in the short time he spent. I remember playing on him one game, and had absolutely no answer for him. He had a huge influence on field. Thought he probably deserved a mention in this list.
As for ones I would consider genuine Adelaide footy league players, the ones that stand out in my top few-
My great teammate Paul Merritt- so classy and was such a work horse, and is in my opinion Gaza’s best ever.
Nick Jolly (PNU)- never seen someone even as an 18 year old have 3 fully grown men hang off him (most of the time illegally) and still take a mark. He signed handily won so many games for PNU over the years.
Dave Bartell- such a good ball winner. So clean and classy by hand and foot.
Drew lister- best FF of all time. We had some pretty solid defenders that always did a good job on him, but even that wasn’t enough to stop him still having 4-5 goals at the end of the game.

And yeah, I agree with the others comments about Holme, etc. There’s been plenty that haven’t been mentioned.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby AdelaideSaint73 » Fri Jan 24, 2025 12:20 am

Andrew "Dog" Muir played mostly in the 90s, but carried over into the 21st century. Dominant for the Blacks. He makes the 40 for me.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby amber_fluid » Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:36 am

AdelaideSaint73 wrote:Andrew "Dog" Muir played mostly in the 90s, but carried over into the 21st century. Dominant for the Blacks. He makes the 40 for me.


Was he the big red headed dude who played CHB?
If so he definitely makes it
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby woodublieve12 » Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:44 am

Not sure if he fits on the list but Tyson Burrows from Payneham was a gun.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby Lightning McQueen » Fri Jan 24, 2025 10:33 am

woodublieve12 wrote:Not sure if he fits on the list but Tyson Burrows from Payneham was a gun.


Bit of an in and under player?
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby am Bays » Fri Jan 24, 2025 10:38 am

Lightning McQueen wrote:
woodublieve12 wrote:Not sure if he fits on the list but Tyson Burrows from Payneham was a gun.


Bit of an in and under player?


Was known to get his hands dirty, use to shovel it out...
Let that be a lesson to you Port, no one beats the Bays five times in a row in a GF and gets away with it!!!
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby hollywood7477 » Fri Jan 24, 2025 1:08 pm

Gary McIntosh went ok at Payneham

On another note I know it’s mostly Div 1 players but where would Mark Rowe from Havens rate. Has won 3 or 4 medals.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby Lightning McQueen » Fri Jan 24, 2025 1:31 pm

No Shaun Holland or Wes LeGrande
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby Jimmy_041 » Fri Jan 24, 2025 4:36 pm

Lightning McQueen wrote:No Shaun Holland or Wes LeGrande


An obvious omission
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby LaughingKookaburra » Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:50 am

Justin Salisbury captained the ammo’s D1 State side at least twice in the early 2000’s from memory. Not sure on the criteria but on the surface he belongs on that list.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby wristwatcher » Wed Jan 29, 2025 1:45 pm

All in all a good list of great players. Always pretty subjective these lists and depending on how you weight the importance of division you could include a lot of other players on this list.

Talking to the blokes at Gepps at their B and F someone like Adam Heuskes could have been considered. He was amazing for the Rams in the 2000's
Big Milney for PNU was an incredibly important piece of the puzzle when they were at their best
Simon Warner for SNFC is a bona fide club legend and captained for many years of the Hawks Div 1 tenure
Adam Perryman was crucial in the Reds achieving multiple Div 1 flags
Tyson Burrows has been mentioned and bought me a coffee late last year so i will mention again :lol: He was the leader for a decade of the Falcs

Every club probably has someone with a great story but as i said every one of the 40 included could seriously play.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby AdelaideSaint73 » Sun Feb 02, 2025 10:23 pm

amber_fluid wrote:
AdelaideSaint73 wrote:Andrew "Dog" Muir played mostly in the 90s, but carried over into the 21st century. Dominant for the Blacks. He makes the 40 for me.


Was he the big red headed dude who played CHB?
If so he definitely makes it


He was, and then transformed himself to an on-baller later on. Absolute beast.
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Re: Top 40 Adelaide Footy League players of the 21st Century

Postby marbles » Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:59 am

The full forward at Adelaide Uni used to smash us and kick 10 goals a game.... Arnold or something
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