BOXING History + Stories

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BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Sun May 03, 2020 7:06 pm

Thread for stories , greatest boxers, greatest bouts, controversies quotes and news
So who was the greatest boxer of all time in any weight division ?

SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
This mans name comes up often in the greatest discussions
Appropriately this thread started on what would have been Robinsons birthday, today 3/5
He was born Walker Smith Junior on 3/5/1921, he would have been a Barbara Feldon 99 years old today
His early trainer was George Gainford when he was still Walker Smith Junior
There was a Ray Robinson at Gainfords gym, but he stopped attending
Gainford gave Walker Smith the boxing name of Ray Robinson , that same night he won his debut amateur fight

AMATEUR CAREER
85 fights
85 wins

PROFESSIONAL CAREER
200 fights
173 wins
6 draws
2 no contests
19 losses

In Robinsons prime he was almost unbeatable
4/10/1940 he won his debut fight against Joe Echevarria
5/2/1943 was his first loss , that being against the Raging Bull Jake LaMotta[ no relation to Robert De Niro]
10/7/1951 was his 2nd loss, that being against Randolph Turpin

At this stage Sugar Ray Robinson in mostly his prime , had fought about 133 bouts in 11 years, before losing for only the second time

10/11/1965 was his last fight, which was a loss to Joey Archer
So the great man fought for a staggering 25 years , 1940-1965

Robinson fought twice the day after birthdays
4/5/1955 when he defeated Garth Panter
4/5/1963 when he defeated Maurice Roblet , when aged 42

200 fights is a colossal amount of professional fighting
He fought Jake LaMotta on 6 occasions , losing only once to the raging bull
One of those fights was stooped by the ref when LaMotta was taking an awful beating
Many years later LaMotta said something like this :
" He was pounding me up against the ropes , I could do nothing , but I wouldnt go down and they stopped the fight , good thing they stopped the fight as i would probably got killed."


So is Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest boxer of all the weight divisions of all time ?
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby tigerpie » Mon May 04, 2020 11:23 am

Good topic of discussion.
On stats its hard to disagree. Going from lightweight to light heavyweights is a remarkable record.
This stat alone says in any weight division his speed and skill stands out.

Clay/Ali however fought in an era of big big money.
This meant he had no padded title defences...against the biggest, hardest punchers on the planet.
Big money meant big pressure and he always stood up.

Sugar Ray Leonard's record is right up there as well.
His title fights against Hagler, Hearns and Duran showed his skill and movement. Those 3 were tough motherf$ckers!
Again, big big money bought about big pressure and he generally delivered.

My top three.

How about Aussie fighters?
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby Mythical Creature » Mon May 04, 2020 11:44 am

Not sure how his boxing record stacks up but I remember reading a book called the Ballard if Les Darcy 10 years ago. Couldn't put it down.
If you don't like it, change it. If you don't want to change it, it can't be that bad!
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Mon May 04, 2020 3:51 pm

tigerpie wrote:Good topic of discussion.
On stats its hard to disagree. Going from lightweight to light heavyweights is a remarkable record.
This stat alone says in any weight division his speed and skill stands out.

Clay/Ali however fought in an era of big big money.
This meant he had no padded title defences...against the biggest, hardest punchers on the planet.
Big money meant big pressure and he always stood up.

Sugar Ray Leonard's record is right up there as well.
His title fights against Hagler, Hearns and Duran showed his skill and movement. Those 3 were tough motherf$ckers!
Again, big big money bought about big pressure and he generally delivered.

My top three.

How about Aussie fighters?


Good point raised by Tigerpie on going up in weight divisions
To do it and win is a great achievement
Going up in divisions and winning is usually difficult
Sugar Ray tried when he went up from a middleweight to a light heavyweight fight against Joey Maxim

25/6/1952
Light Heavyweight championship bout
Joey Maxim the champ v Sugar Ray Robinson the challenger
This was Robinsons 137th fight with only 2 losses to Jake LaMotta and Randolph Turpin
Maxim 173 pounds
Robinson 157.5 pounds

25/6 1952 ends up being the hottest june 25th ever recorded in New York
Both men aged very early 30s , fought in oppressive 104 degree heat , to me it appeared the heat made this bout more tactical then it should have been ?
According to a source both fighters lost 20 pounds each in weight
It was that hot that the ref Ruby Goldstein became ill and was replaced after round 10 by Ray Miller

The heavier Maxim won the bout when Robinson failed to come out for the 14th round
At the end of round 13 Robinson was a sickening site, as he staggered back to his corner
At this stage of the fight, I had Robinson well up on points, only this TKO or a Knockout was gunna win the fight for Joey Maxim
Maxim, however did appear to be getting well on top of Robinson in the 13th round,
Throughout the fight Robinson threw the best and most punches, but it appeared he could not hurt his heavier opponent

Questions were raised after the fight about what might have been
The question most asked was did the heat affect this result
Heres what was said post fight

JOEY MAXIM
I was way behind, and I knew it. But I also knew I had him if I didnt run out of rounds

JACK KEARNS[ Maxims manager, and also handled the legend Jack Dempsey]
The heat talk is an alibi and excuse
Robinson was nailed good in the belly in the 10th round and again in the 12th and he got a left hook and a right to the head at the end of the 13th, when he was on the ropes
If the bell hadn't rang he'd be dead
It was the way we planned it
We had Joey lay back and let Robinson punch himself out

MAL
Robinson was clearly the superior boxer and dictated throughout
The heat meant he prob had to pace himself, a disadvantage of sorts
Robinson moved a lot more than Maxim who fought more flatfooted than Robinson, which meant Sugar was the more vulnerable in the heat
Im of the opinion that heat exhaustion was the factor why he lost

BERT SUGARS[ boxing expert and writer]
He didnt lose to Maxim he lost to the thermometer

The last words
Watch Robinson in round 9 he fought a style that looked Cassuis Clayesque
This fight was scheduled 2 days earlier 23/6/1952, but was abandoned due to torrential rain
Had the fight been on 23/6 Im of the opinion that Robinson prob would have won ?
That fight was 25/6/1952, Robinsons next fight was on 5/1/1955
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby DOC » Mon May 04, 2020 8:36 pm

VERY surprised Joe BUGNER not mentioned yet.
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby tigerpie » Mon May 04, 2020 9:54 pm

Australian top 3

Fenech, Rose, Tszyu.

Fenechs rip off with Nelson made my blood boil at the time.
If his hands weren't chalk he could've won multiple wbc titles.
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Tue May 05, 2020 6:08 pm

AZUMAH NELSON V JEFF FENECH fight 1
1991 Las Vegas

I was at Cheltenham races the day of the fight
I watched the fight, a fight Jeff Fenech appeared to have dominated
I had just seen one of Australias greatest international fights
I took off to punt on the next race
A few minutes later there was a crescendo of disgust in the betting ring over what happened in the boxing ring, a draw !


Ive just watched a replay of the fight
I had the fight, and might be generous to Nelson
6 FENECH
4 DRAW
2 NELSON
The 2 rounds to Nelson were rounds 1+2
At Cheltenham on the day, it appeared more one sided it felt like 8-2-2

The commentator on youtube
9 FENECH
3 NELSON

The judges had
113-115 FENECH
116-112 NELSON what the ....and booing by the crowd
114-114 DRAW and more booing in the crowd

On hearing the decision an animated Jeff Fenech paraded around the ring in absolute disgust


However, was Jeff Fenech in the end lucky to salvage a draw ?
Nelson scored more points by the judges
343 NELSON
341 FENECH

2 celebrities were interviewed after the fight
Tony Danza said he thought Fenech had won
Bill Cosby had thought Fenech by 3 rounds

It was a great fight marred by the controversial decision
There was appropriate advertising in a corner and on the floor of the boxing ring , the word mirage , quite fitting ...
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby tigerpie » Tue May 05, 2020 6:22 pm

I remember it well.
For mine, and slightly biased of course, I to thought nelson won 2 rounds maybe 3.
When the decision was announced I wanted to jump through the telly and belt Don King senseless.

One of the greatest rip offs in sport.
I thought Jeff handled it remarkably well considering how much money he lost.

Bloody Teflon Don, how he's still alive is beyond me?
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Tue May 05, 2020 10:52 pm

The commentary I viewed said this about the fighters

JEFF FENECH
Likens himself to a young Roberto Duran

AZUMAH NELSON
Considers himself a combination of Ali and Frazier, skilful boxer as well as a ferocious puncher

This is what Nelson said pre fight of Jeff Fenech
Fenechs a good warrior but this time he has bitten off more than he can chew , he's going to vomit !
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby robranisgod » Fri May 08, 2020 6:56 pm

tigerpie wrote:Australian top 3

Fenech, Rose, Tszyu.

Fenechs rip off with Nelson made my blood boil at the time.
If his hands weren't chalk he could've won multiple wbc titles.

I saw Rose and I wouldn't have him in the same class as the other two. Rose was very lucky to beat Harada in Japan. Japan took the fight up to Rose. Many independent viewers scored the fight to Harada.
I think Famechon was a superior boxer to Rose. Famechon was a magnificent evader and counter puncher. It was a shock to most pundits when Famechon lost unaminously to Salvidar. In this case most independent viewers scored the fight to Famechon.
Famechon lost 6 of his 56 professional fights, but not once was he knocked out. Rose on the other hand lost 11 of his 53 fights and was knocked out 5 times.
Jimmy Carruthers, the first Australian world champion of the twentieth century, retired undefeated at the age of 24. Unfortunately he made a comeback in 1961 and lost 4 of his 6 fights which tarnished his records. One of these fights was at the St Clair Youth Centre, Woodville and my father and uncle went to the fight but I was too young to go. He did win that one by TKO. How times change though. With due respects to those establishments Carruthers stayed at the Seaton Hotel and his opponent, Johnny Jarrett stayed at the Challa Gardens Hotel, whilst in Adelaide.
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby tigerpie » Fri May 08, 2020 9:15 pm

Unfortunately Lionel, like a lot of his ilk, went too long and his losses mounted at the end.

Famechon's record is very good.
I didn't realise he fought Harada as well and won.

Harada had a pretty shit time against Australians.
Long memories ;)
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby tnt » Sat May 09, 2020 12:15 pm

Boxing Confidential: Power, Corruption and the Richest Prize in Sport by Jim Brady is a good read.

I haven't read "The Life and Crimes of Don King: The Shame of Boxing in America" yet but is on the list.
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby robranisgod » Sat May 09, 2020 9:16 pm

tigerpie wrote:Unfortunately Lionel, like a lot of his ilk, went too long and his losses mounted at the end.

Famechon's record is very good.
I didn't realise he fought Harada as well and won.

Harada had a pretty shit time against Australians.
Long memories ;)


Of course, it is all subjective, but just as I think that history has been overkind to Bill Lawry to the detriment of his opening partner and better player to everyone who saw them both, Bob Simpson, I have always thought that history has downplayed Fammo and talked up Lionel, but in this case you might get some disagreement from others.
Fammo actually fought Harada twice and was very lucky to beat him the first time but then knocked him out in the 14th round of their return bout in Tokyo. Can that really be 50 years ago.
As soon as Fammo lost his title he retired, "unmarked" and it is sadly ironic that having evaded any real punishment in the ring, he was knocked over by a speeding motorist in 1991 and suffered a brain injury and then a stroke whilst still in the prime of his life and very fit. He is still alive today despite his horrific injuries from nearly 30 years ago.
Modern scribes might mark him down because he was a defensive fighter and retired after a relatively brief career, but he is considered Australia's quickest and most skilful ever boxer.
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Fri May 15, 2020 3:59 pm

THE ROARS TOP 10 AUSTRALIAN BOXERS
10 TONY MUNDINE
9 MICHAEL KATSIDIS
8 JEFF HARDING
7 JOHNNY FAMECHON
6 ANTHONY MUNDINE
5 LES DARCY
4 DANIEL GEALE
3 LIONEL ROSE
2 KOSTYA TSZYU
1 JEFF FENECH

I agree with the Roars top 2 of the boxers Ive seen
3rd best ???
Its interesting they have included rivals Anthony Mundine at 6, and Danny Green not in a top 10
It might have been difficult listing where Les Darcy should be , he died aged 21 years old, with maybe his best years to come ?
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby robranisgod » Sun May 17, 2020 10:03 am

mal wrote:THE ROARS TOP 10 AUSTRALIAN BOXERS
10 TONY MUNDINE
9 MICHAEL KATSIDIS
8 JEFF HARDING
7 JOHNNY FAMECHON
6 ANTHONY MUNDINE
5 LES DARCY
4 DANIEL GEALE
3 LIONEL ROSE
2 KOSTYA TSZYU
1 JEFF FENECH

I agree with the Roars top 2 of the boxers Ive seen
3rd best ???
Its interesting they have included rivals Anthony Mundine at 6, and Danny Green not in a top 10
It might have been difficult listing where Les Darcy should be , he died aged 21 years old, with maybe his best years to come ?

Where is Jimmy Carruthers. Ludicrous that he isn't in the top 10.
I would still have Fammo in front of Lionel, but it is subjective.
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Sun May 17, 2020 4:11 pm

JIMMY CARRUTHERS
15/8/1950 Jimmy Carruthers on debut beat Ted Fitzgerald
2/5/1954 Jimmy Carruthers beat Chamroen Songkitrat bare footed in the rain in Bangkok !

At that time of his career , the at least one time wharfie , had a 19-0 undefeated record
He was the Bantamweight champ of the world during this period
At 24 years of age he retired after beating Songkitrat on points


Jimmy Carruthers a southpaw , had the impeccable record but decided to make a comeback 7 years later at the age of 32
He fought 6 more times in 1961-1962
His win/loss sequence was
L
L
L
W
W
L

Jimmy Carruthers last winning bout was against Johnny Jarrett in Adelaide, in the fight RIGS relations attended at St Clair

Johnny Jarrett stayed in the Challa Gardens pub
That pub has the distinction of being the pub that Ive consumed more beers than any other pub in the universe
There would be a fair chance that Johnny Jarrett may have worked out at the very nearby Foxs Gym complex , on Torrens Road ?
That complex was opened by Bill Fox in the 1920s
I have read correspondence that Port Adelaide footballers attended Foxs complex in the 1940-1950s

Some interesting people have been to that gym
Have a look at the gallery section on this site http://www.Foxysgym.com


Never saw Jimmy Carruthers fight, but his record suggests he should be listed top 10 at the very least on a list of the greatest Australian boxers
I did see Jimmy Carruthers in the ring, on TV shows like TV Ringside when he was the referee
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Sun May 17, 2020 5:00 pm

7/1/1814
The first recorded prize fight in Australia ?
Heres a correspondence by the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper


Street fights and bar room brawls aside, Sydneys first recorded bare knuckle bout occurred at Hyde Park Race course in 1814 when a settler, John Berringer, beat Englishman Charles Lifton over 56 rounds with a knockdown ending each round-after each combatant was required to run half a mile before the fight.

The part about a knockdown ending each round is mind boggling
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby tigerpie » Tue May 19, 2020 2:41 pm

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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby mal » Tue May 19, 2020 11:15 pm

Tigerpie, I Thank You for those Lionel Rose memories
At one stage in his career he had an impressive 34 win 2 loss record
He was then beaten by Reuben Olivares
If you watch the fight you will see that Lionel took a pounding and was stopped for the first time in his career

This fight statistically reads as a turning point in Lionel Roses career
In his remaining 16 fights he won 8 and lost 8

His career ends
42 wins
11 losses

So was the battering he took by Reuben Olivares the reason why his career tapered off ?
Or did he fight against a better class of fighters ?
Or was his singing career a distraction ?
Or any other reason ?
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Re: BOXING History + Stories

Postby DOC » Wed May 20, 2020 1:28 am

mal wrote:Johnny Jarrett stayed in the Challa Gardens pub
That pub has the distinction of being the pub that Ive consumed more beers than any other pub in the universe


Is that the reason for the interest in boxing? Self preservation?
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