Teachers pay dispute

[Dogwatcher]

Those who are prepared to teach in the less 'popular' areas should be paid better than those who teach at a 'better' school.
No matter how little they teach, teachers at some schools deserve every cent they get.

Agree with the first statement to some extent. The second is a strange thing say, surely if they are teachers they should teach? If they are simply acting as child minders from 9-3.30, maybe the government could save money employing security guards to do the same task?

Why is it a strange thing to say?
You're right though, the government could employ security guards instead that would at least get rid of the pretence of education in some circumstances.

[wycbloods]

And what about the teachers who want a better deal for their students and the schools they are working in, I guess they should just get stuffed too Mick....

Much of this dispute is about, the union calling the shots with regard to funding. The government wants to give school Principals the right to hire and fire and full control over budgets. If they really cared so much they would moderate their wage demands so the excess would result in more resources for the schools. This dispute is about union control and wages. I despise the Rann government but they should be applauded in standing up to this mob.

It was the state government that initiated the funding talks as part of the EBA not the Union. The AEU has taken issue with the job cuts(as any union will) that will result to the SSO's as well as the shift in funding from its current model. At no stage did the AEU want to discuss these matters but they have had to because of the Government putting it 'on the table'.

Furthermore, the dispute will now go to arbitration.

[Pseudo]

A basic degree? I would've thought having a bachelors degree would entitle you to a decent salary?

No. Having a skill in an area of demand entitles you to a decent salary. Whether or not you have a bachelor's degree does not enter into it, except insofar as it demonstrates your skill in an area where demand of that skill exceeds supply.

I'd love to know what the people with multiple 'higher' degrees do to earn less mick?

They studied areas like politics, sociology, etc. There ain't much demand for folks with Masters degrees in (say) the critique of indigenous artwork.

[Pseudo]

During my school life perhaps 25% of teachers were great or inspiring, 50% were adequate and 25% were hopeless. However the union dictates they all get the same regardless of performance.

Not only on performance: on ability too.

Allow teachers' pay to be based upon subjects taught; that might entice suitably qualified people into areas like maths.

[wycbloods]

During my school life perhaps 25% of teachers were great or inspiring, 50% were adequate and 25% were hopeless. However the union dictates they all get the same regardless of performance.

Not only on performance: on ability too.

Allow teachers' pay to be based upon subjects taught; that might entice suitably qualified people into areas like maths.

I would love to see your list, Pseudo, of the subjects which would entice higher pay.

[Squawk]

I could write so so much about this, but I;ll start off with brevity:

1. Just because you go to Uni doesn't entitle every graduate to be paid the same.
2. Teachers should not be negotiating budget allocations - that is not the domain of enterprise bargaining. It's like a Holden plant demanding that Head Office commit a minimum funding allocation to their particular business. In any case, a commitment has been given that no school will receive less than what they get.
3. 12 weeks of holidays and out of hours activities. Other's get 4 weeks of holiday and out of hours work demands too. For example, most public servants have a clause that says "reasonable overtime/additional hours must be worked as required".
4. Police, Firefighters, Ambulance Staff, Doctors, Teachers and Nurses have had significant pay rises when compared to other professions. Go and ask other public servants about what pay rises they have got since 2001 or so?
5. As a result of (4) the state has a significant wages bill that leaves little buffer to absorb the effect of the "GFC". Teachers are demanding 18% for 3 years with 7% up front, plus a funding model that meets their satisfaction. What they aren't prepared to say is - who should miss out on pay rises or agency funding to satisfy their claim?
6. A teacher on $75k a year is paid the same as a level 3 lawyer at the DPP. They do Jury trials for major indictable (criminal) offences. There are 5 levels of lawyer before they peak prior to the management level. They have to go through annual performance reviews. Their performances are accounted in the media. They get harrassed in the street and at home and other places by the criminal underworld in nasty ways. They are responsible for making decisions that affect peoples lives - victims and perpetrators - in ways that can never be changed. Wrong decision - big problems. Bad day at work for a teacher? Unlikely in most cases to have a lifelong effect on one or more people. So make your choice - teacher for $75K or prosecutor for $75K?

*from the son of TWO career teachers, now retired.

Every worker in the country covered by an Award or and EBA has this kind of clause. The difference between most workers and the teachers is that the general workforce get paid for the overtime. What is a 'reasonable' amount of overtime or additional hours to you squawk? I am sure the additional unpaid hours that teachers put in a far greater than most other professions, regardless of their so called 12 weeks holidays a year.

Reasonable would be 5 hours a week. However, it is never defined. Unreasonable is 10 hours a week or more. If you think teachers are all on their own here, you're wrong. I've never been paid overtime. I know Mrs Squawk was in the 30hrs plus category for 5 years and has now managed to be around 15hrs a week extra on average now. And she has just told me she is going in to work all day tomorrow (Sat). Extra money? No. Good for broader society? Yes. Does she get any thanks? No. As for myself, I'm on call 24/7 and even on holidays I can be called at any time. I just love getting woken up at 3am on a Saturday morning. Do I get paid any more for that? No. Maybe I'll become a teacher instead if I get really unhappy.

Interesting the number of people who are advocating against the teacher's position who have close family in that profession. I know I hardly saw my old man growing up because he was so besotted with education as a profession.

Zip Zap, IIRC the top teacher's salary is around $75k but I'll go and look it up if you are not able to correct me (and please do).

No one is yet to answer a number of questions, including who should have less to give the teachers what they want? Also, I'd be interested to know what the teachers are prepared to change in their occupation to warrant the difference between CPI/Inflation and their claim, because enterprise bargaining is after all about a collective effort to be efficient.

[The Big Shrek]

For Christ's sake. How many teachers get $75k? Answer, pretty much only the one's who have been doing it for 25 years. 12 weeks holiday? I don't think so.

A theme keeps cropping up that some teachers are crap and don't deserve money. Well make teaching attractive by offerring a decent wage.

Industries offer good wages to get the best people to make more money. Unfortunatley, schools' goals are to educate people and this doesn't directly affect anyone's hip pocket. Seems to me like people don't rate kids education.

[am Bays]

For Christ's sake. How many teachers get $75k? Answer, pretty much only the one's who have been doing it for 25 years. 12 weeks holiday? I don't think so.

A theme keeps cropping up that some teachers are crap and don't deserve money. Well make teaching attractive by offerring a decent wage.

Industries offer good wages to get the best people to make more money. Unfortunatley, schools' goals are to educate people and this doesn't directly affect anyone's hip pocket. Seems to me like people don't rate kids education.

Ok I'll bite

Shrek in the six weeks over Xmas, and 3 two breaks during the year what are you required to do so you don't get 12 weeks?

As I said I acknowledge that teachers work more than 40 hrs a week for 40 weeks so curious as to what occurs in those non teacheing weeks.

As I said son of a teacher so I am aware.

Bare in mind pupil free days used to be held in holidays 20 years ago (pre- term/year planning and curriculum), now they are held in term....

[zipzap]

[Zip Zap, IIRC the top teacher's salary is around $75k but I'll go and look it up if you are not able to correct me (and please do).

Must admit I don't know off hand, but that amount is what the union is trying to get as a top salary. The top salary for a teacher is currently around 68-9K I believe. I'm in a leadership position and I don't even get the figure you mention.

A fascinating thread this, but I for one am sick to death of having to justify my job, my 'profession' or whatever you want to call it every day of my waking life. I'm sick of the useless self-interested union. I'm sick of the mean-spirited short-sightedness of the supposedly education-friendly Labor government. I'm sick of talkback radio and halfwits who write to the Advertiser letters page condemning teachers as 'lazy' or 'greedy'. I'm sick of 'experts' who think they know what schools are like because they went to one 30 years ago. I'm sick of public vs private. I'm sick of low performing baby boomer teachers who expect a raise and outstanding teachers getting jaded due to a lack of respect and/or renumeration. I'm sick of defending my holidays to people that are bitter that they don't get more themselves. I'm sick of parents who expect you to take their kids on camp for free. I'm over it. I do however love teaching and at the end of the day, that's what I tell myself when I front up every morning, knowing that each day is going to be different to the last and that with a little bit of luck, you just might have a positive impact on someone's life.

Over and out.

[am Bays]

I'm sick of defending my holidays to people that are bitter that they don't get more themselves.

The question I am trying to have answered, I have no problems with teachers having 12 weeks leave if 8 of those are for extra hours worked during the teaching time.

[Dutchy]

Fair Call ZZ

[Psyber]

[Zip Zap, IIRC the top teacher's salary is around $75k but I'll go and look it up if you are not able to correct me (and please do).

Must admit I don't know off hand, but that amount is what the union is trying to get as a top salary. The top salary for a teacher is currently around 68-9K I believe. I'm in a leadership position and I don't even get the figure you mention.

A lot of doctors in private practice wouldn't achieve that as a taxable income [after running costs] if they worked a 38 hour week plus "Continuing Professional Development" time.
Increasing the hours beyong that makes a substantial difference as costs then don't increase much.
I'd estimate 25 hours a week pays costs but leaves no net income in that context.

[The Big Shrek]

For Christ's sake. How many teachers get $75k? Answer, pretty much only the one's who have been doing it for 25 years. 12 weeks holiday? I don't think so.

A theme keeps cropping up that some teachers are crap and don't deserve money. Well make teaching attractive by offerring a decent wage.

Industries offer good wages to get the best people to make more money. Unfortunatley, schools' goals are to educate people and this doesn't directly affect anyone's hip pocket. Seems to me like people don't rate kids education.

Ok I'll bite

Shrek in the six weeks over Xmas, and 3 two breaks during the year what are you required to do so you don't get 12 weeks?

Teachers go back earlier than the students. My old man is a teacher. He spent most of the holidays at school doing preperation and marking.

[catchisthecry]

Correct.
Another teacher here.... ever considered the hoildays have something to do with the children too???
Not just greedy, lazy teachers.

[Squawk]

Another teacher here.... ever considered the hoildays have something to do with the children too???

I think most would understand that a 48 week year would be touch on a 5 year old or a 17 year old. Is there any reason why teachers don't have to report to work at the school at these holiday times though? If they did their lesson planning and the like at these times, they wouldn't need pupil free days and professional development days in term time.

[am Bays]

Teachers go back earlier than the students. My old man is a teacher. He spent most of the holidays at school doing preperation and marking.

I am aware of that, and in some cases the kids have short weeks when they first come back for PD days, so the kids get more than 12 weeks....

As i said my Mum was a teacher so yes I know some go back early especially the senior teachers.

yes catchisthecry i am aware the holidays are about the 12 weeks is about the kids primarily . As I said I am the son of a teacher so i know how hard the majority work.

Still waiting for a teacher to justify a 7% per year pay rise compared to a public servants 3.5% annual payrise under their EBA and itemise how the eight weeks is made up during terms bareing in mind equivalent ASO4s 5s $50-60 K work extra hours too (over and above their 8:30 to 5:00 day)

More than happy for oher professions to be used as a comparison e.g. Nurses.

Disclaimer I don't claim to be a model of productivity as a public servant or do I think that we are worthy of more than 3.5% indexed pay rise. I certainly don't think our role is as imporatnt as teachers or nurses. I also think our incremental rises should be based on performance rather than anniversary as it currently is. In other words set KPIs for perforamce and ensure you do PD to justify increases in pay.

[Squawk]

OK, here is the current situation pay wise for teachers:

I think the summary of the present scenario is as follows:
The original claim was for an extra 21% over 3 years. This has since been modified to 18% over 3 years, providing that 7% of that is paid effective immediately as the first increase. The current Govt offer is 14.5%. The rates are never compounding - they are increases on the present salary.

http://www.decs.sa.gov.au/docs/documents/1/SouthAustralianEducatio-1.pdf

Date/Increase
1/7/05 – 2%
1/10/05 – 3.5% (+ $71 for step 8 )
1/4/06 – 1%
1/10/06 – 3.5% (+ $510 for step 8 )
1/10/07 - 4% (+ $380 for step 8 )

Total = 14% since 1/7/05 (first increase date) and
Step 8 teachers got 14% plus 1.4% ($961) = 15.4%

As at 1/10/07 the (current) rates are as follows:

Special Authority $43,250

Band 1 - Teachers

Step 1 $49,605
Step 2 $52,165
Step 3 $54,724
Step 4 $57,280
Step 5 $59,845
Step 6 $62,403
Step 7 $64,961
Step 8 $68,422

Ast 1 Key Teacher $70,492
Ast 2 Key Teacher $73,791

Band 2 – Promotional Classifications

Coordinator 1 $70,492
Coordinator 2 $73,507
Coordinator 3 $76,829
Ass Principal 1 $77,703
Ass Principal 2 $82,291

Band 3 – Principals/Deputy Principals

PCO1 $78,576
PCO2 $83,741
PCO3 $88,908
PCO4 $94,073
PCO5 $99,242
PCO6 $104,408
PCO7 $109,575
PCO8 $114,740

Schools Services Officers got a 14% pay increase from 1/7/05 (first increase date) to 1/10/07

Level 1, Step 1 gets $34,071
Level 5 Step 4 gets $72,377

[The Yetti]

Teachers should, as should all Public servants spend some time in the Private Sector.

Whether it be in the Cooperate sector or a Privately owned business.

see what it is like to have to sit one on one for a pay rise
See what it is like to have to attain KPI's
hAVE ANY TEACHERS HAD TO SACK SOMEONE,
WILL YOU BE RETRENCHED IN THE NEXT YEAR OR SO
HOW MANY TEACHERS COACH THE SCHOOL FOOTY SIDE NOW DAYS
IN THE PANTHER LEAGUE I KNOW OF 2

See what it is like to only have 4 weeks leave

Oh yes and be at work from 7am till 7pm and then do work at home

OH YES I ATTENDED A.C.A.E IN THE EARLY 70'S

WE HAVE ALL GOT WORK PROBLEMS, TEACHERS DO HAVE IT EASIER THAN MOST

[Dutchy]

How did teachers get to parliment house today at 4pm if they are suppose to be working?

[Squawk]

How did teachers get to parliment house today at 4pm if they are suppose to be working?

According to the AEU website, 4pm is out of normal school hours.