Teachers 15.75% with 5 months of back pay.

[gossipgirl]

you have to be kidding, obviously you havent lived in Sydney or Melbourne recently

I've had a couple of interesting cost of living experiences since my return to Adelaide.
1. I needed some business cards for my part time work - SNAP Printing Preston, Melbourne, 2/3 the price [including postage] of the local SNAP's pricing.
2. I needed 4 Pirelli Scorpion ATR tyres - Bob Jane, Glen Osmond Rd $260 ea, BJ City $250 ea, BJ Ferntree Gully, Melbourne, $215 ea - BJ City flexed down to $225 ea when I quoted the Melbourne price...

try some of the trivial items e.g. accomodation, going out to dinner, buying a house

[Psyber]

try some of the trivial items e.g. accomodation, going out to dinner, buying a house

True..
I wasn't trying to deny the generality, just pointing out some odd exceptions - perhaps due to lack of competition here.
I agree that dining out is generally more expensive in Melbourne, and so is buying housing at similar distances from the CBD.
I paid about the same to rent a house in Malvern [Melbourne] in 1999, and Wayville [SA] in 2003 - the only times I've rented.

[Ian]

you have to be kidding, obviously you havent lived in Sydney or Melbourne recently

I've had a couple of interesting cost of living experiences since my return to Adelaide.
1. I needed some business cards for my part time work - SNAP Printing Preston, Melbourne, 2/3 the price [including postage] of the local SNAP's pricing.
2. I needed 4 Pirelli Scorpion ATR tyres - Bob Jane, Glen Osmond Rd $260 ea, BJ City $250 ea, BJ Ferntree Gully, Melbourne, $215 ea - BJ City flexed down to $225 ea when I quoted the Melbourne price...

try some of the trivial items e.g. accomodation, going out to dinner, buying a house

I know we are still better off generally than other cities, all I am saying is the gap has narrowed which it has.
My equivelant in the public service in NSW is on approximately 10 - 15% higher wage than me, would someone living in Broken Hill, Wagga etc have a 10 - 15% greater cost of living than me?? Using the cost of living argument someone in NSW, Qld or Vic cities should be earning more than their country counterparts doing the same job.

[cripple]

Getting a university degree is a minimum benchmark for an administrative/professional occupation these days. As far as I'm aware, the TER is pretty low for teaching as well, so arguably those doing the teaching degree are not amongst the brighest students going around. It's also low for nursing. These have been jobs that have attracted the average student. Average students training to teach the next generation of students = average outcomes. This wont be fixed by massive pay increases so give them the same as everyone else gets IMHO. Also, make progression through each step subject to meeting some specified quality standards - not just an automatic thing.
.

True, the TER is lower than other courses, but I'm sure that would be reflected if you compare these salary figures to doctors, vets, lawyers, accountants. If the "smarter" kids are being attracted to these professions, then that reflects how society values teachers and nurses.
Teachers aren't on there own in getting automatic progressions - not so long ago (and I think it still does) the award covering local government office workers had automatic progression of one step each year (or two if relevant tertiary qualifications) up to a certain level.
(And no, I am not a teacher).

A TER is purely for entry into uni. There have been plenty of smart arsed kids over the years go to uni with 90+ TER and fall flat on their faces pretty damned quickly. There are also plenty of people who have perceived poor TER's that have gone onto to be very productive members of society. The point i am trying to make is that a TER means absolutely nothing when it comes to the end product and anyone who finishes any uni degree has put some hard work into it and has acquired the skills deemed necessary to enter thier chosen field of work.

[Squawk]

I guess my point is that it would seem that the teaching profession doesn't have the prestige in our society that other professions seem to have. I'm not making any judgement about that, except to say that if it was a highly regarded profession and medicine was poorly regarded, (for example), the tables might be turned.

[Pag]

I teach 11 & 12 year-olds in a public school in the north, in one of, if not the most, disadvantaged suburb in Adelaide. The school is 'one of the worst in Australia' according to the MySchool website (which is the most unethical waste of money the government could think of), and it is a tough slog day-in and day-out. Some of the things I have seen and experienced in my (only) 4 months of teaching still shock me when I sit back and think about them.

I challenge anyone to come and spend a week out there, in and out of my classroom, and tell me I don't earn my money out there.

I love my job, and even though it's stresses me out to the max and I have days where I get home and wonder what the world is coming to, I wouldn't do anything else.

I'm not knocking any other profession or career and what they get paid, good on them, they should get as much as they can. But if teaching is so easy, everyone would do it.

[zipzap]

Onya Pag

[Squawk]

I think the main thrust of the discussion was about relativities Pag - whether one occupation genuinely warrants less or more than another occupation, particularly when the gap between some public sector wage outcomes is more than 100% from one occupation to the next. Do you think social workers for example warrant getting 7.5% over 3 years compared to (in the AEU's words) - up to 21% over the same timeframe?

[Psyber]

I suspect any profession where the employment is largely with the government becomes devalued, and tends to be seen as simply a public service job no different from an administrative job, except perhaps by its members. The capacity to walk out gives one the independence of officialdom, which is traditionally part of being a profession.
Governments and bureaucrats don't like that independence existing..

They've had Medicine in their sights for a long time, but the cost of the nationalisation of medicine holds them back.
They are aware the UK government had to put up doctors salaries 35% in 2003 to stop many retiring or leaving for fully independent, unfunded by government, private practice.
[Which is growing in the UK as dissatisfaction with free, but rationed, health care grows.]

[FlyingHigh]

Getting a university degree is a minimum benchmark for an administrative/professional occupation these days. As far as I'm aware, the TER is pretty low for teaching as well, so arguably those doing the teaching degree are not amongst the brighest students going around. It's also low for nursing. These have been jobs that have attracted the average student. Average students training to teach the next generation of students = average outcomes. This wont be fixed by massive pay increases so give them the same as everyone else gets IMHO. Also, make progression through each step subject to meeting some specified quality standards - not just an automatic thing.
.

True, the TER is lower than other courses, but I'm sure that would be reflected if you compare these salary figures to doctors, vets, lawyers, accountants. If the "smarter" kids are being attracted to these professions, then that reflects how society values teachers and nurses.
Teachers aren't on there own in getting automatic progressions - not so long ago (and I think it still does) the award covering local government office workers had automatic progression of one step each year (or two if relevant tertiary qualifications) up to a certain level.
(And no, I am not a teacher).

A TER is purely for entry into uni. There have been plenty of smart arsed kids over the years go to uni with 90+ TER and fall flat on their faces pretty damned quickly. There are also plenty of people who have perceived poor TER's that have gone onto to be very productive members of society. The point i am trying to make is that a TER means absolutely nothing when it comes to the end product and anyone who finishes any uni degree has put some hard work into it and has acquired the skills deemed necessary to enter thier chosen field of work.

Fully agree.

[FlyingHigh]

I guess my point is that it would seem that the teaching profession doesn't have the prestige in our society that other professions seem to have. I'm not making any judgement about that, except to say that if it was a highly regarded profession and medicine was poorly regarded, (for example), the tables might be turned.

Agree about teachers and nurses not having the same prestige or their occupations are not considered as "professionals" in the same way others are. I guess it stems from the days of teachers colleges and in-hospital nursing.

[gossipgirl]

you have to be kidding, obviously you havent lived in Sydney or Melbourne recently

I've had a couple of interesting cost of living experiences since my return to Adelaide.
1. I needed some business cards for my part time work - SNAP Printing Preston, Melbourne, 2/3 the price [including postage] of the local SNAP's pricing.
2. I needed 4 Pirelli Scorpion ATR tyres - Bob Jane, Glen Osmond Rd $260 ea, BJ City $250 ea, BJ Ferntree Gully, Melbourne, $215 ea - BJ City flexed down to $225 ea when I quoted the Melbourne price...

try some of the trivial items e.g. accomodation, going out to dinner, buying a house

I know we are still better off generally than other cities, all I am saying is the gap has narrowed which it has.
My equivelant in the public service in NSW is on approximately 10 - 15% higher wage than me, would someone living in Broken Hill, Wagga etc have a 10 - 15% greater cost of living than me?? Using the cost of living argument someone in NSW, Qld or Vic cities should be earning more than their country counterparts doing the same job.

Good Point

[Psyber]

I know we are still better off generally than other cities, all I am saying is the gap has narrowed which it has.
My equivelant in the public service in NSW is on approximately 10 - 15% higher wage than me, would someone living in Broken Hill, Wagga etc have a 10 - 15% greater cost of living than me?? Using the cost of living argument someone in NSW, Qld or Vic cities should be earning more than their country counterparts doing the same job.

We had the same problem when I was a salaried medical officer prior to 1975 - we were always about 16% behind Victoria and further behind NSW and Qld.
Last time I checked, about 4 years ago, Victoria had come back to par with SA and Qld had gone further ahead.
Victoria also only want to hire doctors who will accept being "answerable to the Director of Nursing" which usually means no Australian graduates apply.
Then they can fill a specialist post with someone whose qualifications are not recognised here and pay them the non-specialist medical officer rate.

[Dutchy]

I teach 11 & 12 year-olds in a public school in the north, in one of, if not the most, disadvantaged suburb in Adelaide. The school is 'one of the worst in Australia' according to the MySchool website (which is the most unethical waste of money the government could think of), and it is a tough slog day-in and day-out. Some of the things I have seen and experienced in my (only) 4 months of teaching still shock me when I sit back and think about them.

I challenge anyone to come and spend a week out there, in and out of my classroom, and tell me I don't earn my money out there.

I love my job, and even though it's stresses me out to the max and I have days where I get home and wonder what the world is coming to, I wouldn't do anything else.

I'm not knocking any other profession or career and what they get paid, good on them, they should get as much as they can. But if teaching is so easy, everyone would do it.

Excellent post, at the end of the day no matter what industry you are in you have choices, dont like the pay and conditions? do something else IMO...

[Psyber]

I teach 11 & 12 year-olds in a public school in the north, in one of, if not the most, disadvantaged suburb in Adelaide. The school is 'one of the worst in Australia' according to the MySchool website (which is the most unethical waste of money the government could think of), and it is a tough slog day-in and day-out. Some of the things I have seen and experienced in my (only) 4 months of teaching still shock me when I sit back and think about them.

I challenge anyone to come and spend a week out there, in and out of my classroom, and tell me I don't earn my money out there.
I love my job, and even though it's stresses me out to the max and I have days where I get home and wonder what the world is coming to, I wouldn't do anything else.
I'm not knocking any other profession or career and what they get paid, good on them, they should get as much as they can. But if teaching is so easy, everyone would do it.

Excellent post, at the end of the day no matter what industry you are in you have choices, dont like the pay and conditions? do something else IMO...

Sound comments..
My wife came from a family of teachers, on her mother's side.
She taught at Elizabeth High for a short time in the early 1970s, then took a job at an inner city Catholic school for a couple of years.
She was going to University and running Duplicate Cheques in DSS, before it became CentreLink, when we met, after deciding teaching was not for her..

[dedja]

Just some more perspective on salaries, my wife is a physiotherapist who now is employed in private practice. If she was still in the public system, her salary would be between $62,000-$72,000 per year.

This is for a physio with 18 years experience who on entry to uni had to get a higher score than medicine (that year) to be accepted into her course.

[FlyingHigh]

From this week's Bunyip newspaper. Still think teachers are overpaid?

Real Estate
Secure Salary - No Experience!
Mature, responsible people are invited to apply for a real estate career with an agency using ethical programs. This is a demanding role with standards of extreme excellence. You will be required to undergo intensive training before and after you qualify. You will need to be dedicated to your clients in a manner unlike anything seen in real estate. We are serious about becoming one of the best estate agents in the world. We offer our clients the finest real estate service in our area and we offer our team members superb conditions.

A salary package of $77,000 PLUS bonuses can create an income of $200,000 or more. People following our pro-grams are among the highest paid in real estate. They follow a strict code of conduct. It is a great life. If you think you can do it we’d love to hear from you.

Please call for a free information booklet with full details.
Thank you.

Monday to Friday.
8523 3777

[Squawk]

So you're applying then, FH?

I'd still like to hear a teacher's perspective on why they warrant an increase of between 14-21%, when others employed by the same employer get 7.5% for the same timeframe. And that's just for this pay cycle.

[Psyber]

It sounds like a bit of a con there, FlyingHigh.
Usually there is a fairly low retainer and the "bonuses" are entirely dependent on a percentage of commissions earned for the agency, to get anything like the figures suggested here.
In addition, depending on the deal, you may build up a "debt" for the "training" which has to be paid back out of any "bonus".
I have known the odd agent who was struggling to keep their own house when the market was down, while they all do well in the booms.
And, of course, there is the after hours and weekend work.

If I really thought $200K was achievable reliably in real estate I'd have left Medicine years ago, since I had family in real estate.
In my last 4 years in medical practice my average take home for a 36-38 hour week was about $80K - a lot comes out of the gross.

[am Bays]

As I said I don't begrudge the teachers a pay-rise but following my incident yesterday http://www.safooty.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=958&start=5600 I thought this was topical for this thread.

20 mins in the Dentists chair this morning getting my front tooth capped, worked out to roughly $8 a minute for the Dentist!!! Yeah yeah I know his over heads (pretty young dental nurses, consumables, power, maintenance etc) but I still bet a fair chunk (maybe 50%) goes in his pocket.

He did a good job though, tooth looks better than what it did before-hand.