Bushfires

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Re: Bushfires

Postby smac » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:14 pm

hondo71 wrote:It will be interesting to see what comes of the Royal Commission. I'd guess life in high fire risk areas will have to change:

- mandatory insurance
- mandatory evacuations (no more trying to save properties and putting lives at risk)
- community bushfire plans (not left up to individuals)
- minimum building standards (where houses are allowed to be built and what materials are used)
- getting warnings out quicker
- etc
- etc

We simply can't have 300 people die in their homes and cars as a result of fires that were burning for a week beforehand. It's tragically unbelievable :( We must learn from this.

My condolences to everyone affected by this disaster.

I agree Hondo, one of the most intelligent reactions I have seen to this whole messy event.

Great story from this afternoon, I had a collection bucket to drop off somewhere this afternoon and stopped in at home for lunch on the way out there. The littlest smac (Miss 3) went and got her piggybank to put in after she heard me talking to Mrs Smac about it. She put a few dollars in and kept a couple of dollars for herself, for some lollies apparently.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby heater31 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:03 pm

hondo71 wrote:It will be interesting to see what comes of the Royal Commission. I'd guess life in high fire risk areas will have to change:

- mandatory insurance
- mandatory evacuations (no more trying to save properties and putting lives at risk)
- community bushfire plans (not left up to individuals)
- minimum building standards (where houses are allowed to be built and what materials are used)
- getting warnings out quicker
- etc
- etc

We simply can't have 300 people die in their homes and cars as a result of fires that were burning for a week beforehand. It's tragically unbelievable :( We must learn from this.

My condolences to everyone affected by this disaster.



If I was running the show based on my university research:

1) Issue with out delay an updated building Standard the current one is 10 years old this year and has been under review for half of that time. Surely they have new knowledge in that time to put into practice.

2) create more awareness of bushfire action plans. Get the local Country fire Brigade to issue a standard plan for all residents. Individuals can then make amendments to suit their circumstance.

3) Possibly most importantly mandatory construction of fire bunkers for each property in high risk areas. It has saved the lives of 1 family already due the the wife nagging the husband continually to build it. they lost their house but they are still here. I know if I ever live in a high risk area I will be constructing one of these.



Also to note that in this weekend's day 2 of Grade cricket fixtures players and umpires will be wearing armbands as a mark of respect.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Amateur Footy » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:57 pm

The fires weren't burning for a week before hand. Didn't most start on the saturday? Fires occur every year, but the weather in victoria on that day was the worst ever known and only a few similar days have ever happend in memory. On hot windy days spot fires will start km ahead of the main front and for this reason people don't realise they may have very little time. It was impossible for lives to not be lost.

I don't care about the insurance issue, that doesn't save lives and properties, but agree people should have it. I do not understand why most people will not spend $1k to $2k on a fire protection system when their properties would be worth $100k's. Without them it is madness to stay and defend homes with garden hoses etc. There is generally no pressure in the lines anyway. On one occasion when fighting a fire with the CFS I fitted a 64mm hose to a fire hydrant and on opening the tap the hose was sucked back into the hydrant and down the mains line. We were on the end of the mains line and all water was being used elsewhere.

A good start is the bushfire warning system that calls phone numbers in regions affected by bushfires. Federal govt stalling prevented it being implemented this year. But saying that, many people believe they can save their homes so won't leave anyway. Very questionable as to whether the warnings would get out soon enough too. Fires move very rapidly in the right conditions.

Brick homes should be the obvious choice in the bush. Wod/log homes or homes built on stilts should no longer be approved. Homes must have a fire protection system and significant clearing around the house, particularly on the northern side. If you build at the top of a north facing hill you are asking for trouble. I like the idea of the bunker, but it must be air tight or you may be starved of oxygen.

The CFS has sent information DVDs to most hills residents I believe. A great idea, but I wonder how many watched it? Remember that most Hills districts have perhaps 2 or 3 CFS appliances protecting 100s of homes - impossible on a bad day. There is so much information out there, but I think the only way to go is house to house door knocks by experts to advise people of what they should do to reduce threats to their own homes. Otherwise the attitude is it won't happen to me.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby therisingblues » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:40 am

Some good advice there AF, and I actually remember a lot of it from the aftermath of the Ash Wednesday disaster.
I visited Mt. Lofty with my wife shortly after we got married and showed her the pictures they have there of Ash Wednesday. She got a bit perturbed at the idea of living in the bush after that and I naively told her that it would never happen again, that Australians had learned from Ash Wednesday and now there are just too many measures in place for it to happen again.
What the hell happened?
I was so surprised when I hit enter a few days back and saw the headlines from dear old Oz.

On a different note. I saw the discussion on insurance a few pages back:
In the current global economic crisis, what chance is there that some insurance companies are going to go through the wall owing to this disaster? Aside from that , what will happen to premiums from here?
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Re: Bushfires

Postby JAS » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:24 am

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet and all the animal lovers here's a film clip of that gorgeous little koala and the fire fighter :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XSPx7S4jr4

There was a follow up on Sky News yesterday showing her in an animal rescue centre with sightly burnt paws and every hope of releasing her back into the wild.

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Re: Bushfires

Postby TroyGFC » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:14 am

thanks again Jas, always good to see a feel good story.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Psyber » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:19 am

Two other aspects:
1. The fine print of insurance.
When I lived at West Lakes I had trouble getting a policy that covered the - admittedly small - risk of flooding from rising water.
Little clauses excluding this popped up in several policies offered by various agencies. I haven't seen one that excludes bushfire damage yet, but it could happen.

2. In Victoria the state administration has in the past allowed land in the mountains and rural bushland to be cut up into small blocks - 1/2 to 3 acres - much more than in SA. Credit must be given to Don Dunstan for his foresight in SA for that. Also, the Green lobby has blocked the clearing of forest and scrub around established townships and rural living areas for a long time. There is an anti-Green feeling here in the hills now, and I suspect the state government may be forced to allow some clearing around residential areas, or to buy back land to create buffer zones.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Q. » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:24 am

JAS wrote:
Footy Chick wrote:
Quichey wrote:It's also easy to say that everyone should be insured, but it's probably not so easy for low income owners to always balance their budgets in order to be.


and now what have they got? No excuses.


Sorry Quichey can't agree...I'm a low income owner...don't mind admitting to what equates to about 1325$AU per month...and I have buildings and contents insurance...I spread the payments so it costs me about 36$AU per month. There's no excuse even if your underinsured it's better than nothing. I also get mad when I see people, especially after the floods here, expecting the government or charities to bail them out cos they were too lazy or too busy blowing the cash down the pub to get insurance.

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Fair points, ladies. Smarter to be insured than to have an extra carton of beer in the fridge.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Q. » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:34 am

Amateur Footy wrote:I don't care about the insurance issue, that doesn't save lives and properties, but agree people should have it. I do not understand why most people will not spend $1k to $2k on a fire protection system when their properties would be worth $100k's. Without them it is madness to stay and defend homes with garden hoses etc. There is generally no pressure in the lines anyway. On one occasion when fighting a fire with the CFS I fitted a 64mm hose to a fire hydrant and on opening the tap the hose was sucked back into the hydrant and down the mains line. We were on the end of the mains line and all water was being used elsewhere.


Watching Q and A last night it was discussed that no existing system could have adequately protected a house from the fire such was it's ferocity.

Also many people have stated that phone lines were out. Perhaps a better warning system would be similar to the Tsunami sirens.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Psyber » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:41 am

Amateur Footy wrote:I don't care about the insurance issue, that doesn't save lives and properties, but agree people should have it. I do not understand why most people will not spend $1k to $2k on a fire protection system when their properties would be worth $100k's. Without them it is madness to stay and defend homes with garden hoses etc. There is generally no pressure in the lines anyway. On one occasion when fighting a fire with the CFS I fitted a 64mm hose to a fire hydrant and on opening the tap the hose was sucked back into the hydrant and down the mains line. We were on the end of the mains line and all water was being used elsewhere.
When I lived outside Hahndorf we had an effective system - a 7.5 HP pump connected to a 10,000 gallon tank and a series of 11 sprinklers around the house and shed, but that was about $5500 in early 1980s money... I don't know what it would cost today.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Dirko » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:52 am

Quichey wrote:Watching Q and A last night it was discussed that no existing system could have adequately protected a house from the fire such was it's ferocity.

Also many people have stated that phone lines were out. Perhaps a better warning system would be similar to the Tsunami sirens.


Having spoken to a mate that lives in a area that is/has bushfires, and from what he knows about people that lost houses with a system, he said the ferocity of the fires was just immense.

He said that people saw melted pipe lines when they returned to their houses. Makes it nigh impossible when it's like that....
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Pseudo » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:53 am

Quichey wrote:Fair points, ladies. Smarter to be insured than to have an extra carton of beer in the fridge.

But if you're not insured, then you'll be needing that carton of beer a whole lot more :lol:
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Q. » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:40 am

Pseudo wrote:
Quichey wrote:Fair points, ladies. Smarter to be insured than to have an extra carton of beer in the fridge.

But if you're not insured, then you'll be needing that carton of beer a whole lot more :lol:


I'd be happy if my money went towards buying those folk a few cold ones :D
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Amateur Footy » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:56 pm

Psyber wrote:
Amateur Footy wrote:I don't care about the insurance issue, that doesn't save lives and properties, but agree people should have it. I do not understand why most people will not spend $1k to $2k on a fire protection system when their properties would be worth $100k's. Without them it is madness to stay and defend homes with garden hoses etc. There is generally no pressure in the lines anyway. On one occasion when fighting a fire with the CFS I fitted a 64mm hose to a fire hydrant and on opening the tap the hose was sucked back into the hydrant and down the mains line. We were on the end of the mains line and all water was being used elsewhere.
When I lived outside Hahndorf we had an effective system - a 7.5 HP pump connected to a 10,000 gallon tank and a series of 11 sprinklers around the house and shed, but that was about $5500 in early 1980s money... I don't know what it would cost today.


10,000 gallons is a big tank! 2,500 would be enough if your sprinkler system feeds back into the gutters and back into the tank. I guess I was thinking that most homes in the hills have existing rain water tanks, so a 5hp pump and sprinkler system is all that's req'd. I actually don't reckon the pumps and tanks would have gone up too much in cost, but yeah if tank included you'd be getting closer t the $5k mark.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Thiele » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:04 pm

Reportly the police has Caught one of the Scumbags that started the Churchill Fires http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/stor ... 01,00.html
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Psyber » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:50 pm

Amateur Footy wrote: 10,000 gallons is a big tank! 2,500 would be enough if your sprinkler system feeds back into the gutters and back into the tank. I guess I was thinking that most homes in the hills have existing rain water tanks, so a 5hp pump and sprinkler system is all that's req'd. I actually don't reckon the pumps and tanks would have gone up too much in cost, but yeah if tank included you'd be getting closer t the $5k mark.
Yes I was including the 10,000 gallon tank in the costing and the undergrounding all the pipes so they didn't melt.
Rainwater was all we had 6km from the nearest town [Hahndorf], so we actually had a 10,000 gallon tank and a 30,000 gallon one.

All the rainwater from the roof area went to the big one and the 10K was topped up from a dam and used for garden watering as well on an electric pump.
The fire pump was able to draw from either tank but it was usually set up so we used the dam water first, and by closing a valve before turning the pump on avoided getting the dirty water off the roof into the big tank we kept clean for household use. It also kept water in the guttering during any fire.

Afterwards we would flush it before directing flow off roof back to the main tank. We only ever needed the system twice in the 13 years we lived there.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Amateur Footy » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:09 pm

I think the other thing worth mentioning is that it's incorrect to say that the ferocity of the fires means a protection system wouldn't work. It depends on the fuel load around your house. If you've cleaned up around your home and removed all fuel loads, there is no reason why a sprinkler system shouldn't save your home.
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Thiele » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:12 pm

Thought i herd that the Kingslake fire were started when powerlines hit the ground so now the are going to start leagal action against the power company and maybe the State goverment
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Re: Bushfires

Postby TroyGFC » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:10 am

surprise surprise the accused arsonist / child pornography person was a firefighter!!
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Re: Bushfires

Postby Dogwatcher » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:32 am

From Adelaidenow:


THE man accused of starting one of the deadly Victorian bushfires was a member of a country fire brigade whose members cheated death fighting the blaze.

Brendan Sokaluk, 39, of Churchill, this morning was remanded in custody after a magistrate lifted a suppression order banning publication of his identity.

Sokaluk has been charged with one count of arson causing death, one count of intentionally lighting a bushfire and one count of possessing child pornography after detectives arrested him over the Churchill fire, which killed 21 people.

The arson charge carries a maximum penalty of 25 years, with the bushfire charge carrying a maximum penalty of 15 years.

He did not appear at today's hearing in the Melbourne Magistrates' Court.

According to The Australian, Sokaluk joined the local Country Fire Authority brigade in the 1980s.

FULL COVERAGE: Videos, reports, picture galleries
Multimedia feature: The faces of tragedy
Updated gallery: Flames consume Victoria
Frontline images: A CFA firefighter's photos
Andrew Bolt: Survival lessons we have forgotten
Send your condolences: Messages of support
Interactive map: Victoria's killer fires
Victoria bushfires: Latest Herald Sun coverage

Chief Police Commissioner Christine Nixon this morning urged Victorians not to threaten the safety of Sokaluk.

"Coming to court and protesting is not an appropriate thing to do," she said.

"Obviously, we will make sure this person is well protected.

"We hope that we don't have to deal with a gang of people who are angry and concerned about this arrest. We know people are.

"We will make sure he is protected and can go before the justice system, as he should, and be dealt with through that process."

Ms Nixon said police arson detectives were still working around the clock investigating fires around the state, including blazes that wiped out the towns of Marysville and Kinglake.

"Our teams are working hard ... We hope to be able to come to some conclusions about that fire (Marysville), particularly, in the not too distant future," she said.

"People need to be very vigilant, we need to be aware of what's happening. If things look strange, call police.

"It might be quite minor, but for us it can be a part of a whole intelligence."

Meanwhile, speculation that the death toll from Victoria's horror bushfires could reach 300 is based on rumour rather than fact, the state's emergency services commissioner says.

The death toll from the devastating fires remains at 181 and about 70 people are estimated to be seriously injured.

The number of fatalities is expected to rise as the examination of burnt-out buildings is completed, Bruce Esplin said.

But the commissioner refused to speculate whether the toll would reach 300 when asked about that figure on ABC Television.

"There's been so many rumours circulating about buildings with lots and lots of bodies in, and when they've been tracked down they've been found to have no substance," Mr Esplin said.

It was a difficult time for police, the Country Fire Authority), other fire services, and defence personnel doing the "horrible" task of searching through the buildings.

People needed to focus on the fact that each death was an individual and "not just large numbers".

Today is the 26th anniversary of the 1983 Ash Wednesday fires and, Mr Esplin says, survivors of last weekend's Black Saturday inferno can draw strength from that history.

"Much as it might be hard to contemplate now, the communities that were wiped out in Ash Wednesday have rebuilt, and the communities that have been affected by these fires will rebuild too," he said.

"The challenge is to rebuild for the future, not rebuild as they were in the past."

Communities had to be stronger, tougher and safer going forward, he said.
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