Teachers pay dispute

[The Big Shrek]

What would be the KPIs Tassie?

I think Pag has summed it up quite nicely.

[Mic]

People who aren`t in the teaching profession suggesting ways of how teachers should be paid gives me the sh1ts.

[Mickyj]

People who aren`t in the teaching profession suggesting ways of how teachers should be paid gives me the sh1ts.

Not to give Mic the shits
But perhaps Teachers should ban the TV show are you smarter than a 5th grader.I have watched 2 teachers (pretty sure 1 was a fifth grade teacher ) bomb out on national TV. And say they aren't as smart as a fifth grader.
Does not help the teachers cause MIC .
And I am not suggesting anything one way or the other Mic.


Cheers

[am Bays]

What would be the KPIs Tassie?

I think Pag has summed it up quite nicely.

Anythng you want them to be that you can agree on with your manager. And I appreciate that not all kids have the same motivation and lack the parental support/encouragement to learn - as Paq suggested kids simply passing is not an appropriate KPI.

KPIs can be be anything from amount of professional development, peer support, development of lessen plans, review of curriculum, number of new lessons introduced, anything that promotes their own development as professionals. I would suggest that poor teaching has a high correlation with lack of preofessional development, delivery of the same old lessons/programs lack of support.

As a parent I know I have the biggest role in my kids education - I and my wife will be the one constant in their lives as they are educated teachers will come and go. What will p!ss me off is if the teachers they have have made no attempt to better them selves and are deliveryong the same old lessons/programs for the past 5-10 years without any review against current evidence based practice.

As a public servent formally in a service delivery (sport scientist) role to adolescents with questionable motivation I was still expected to review my programs /services and report on outcomes and development of said poorly motivated adolescents. I had to review my programs agaisnt industry best practice and make changes where appropriate so i wasn't doing teh same thing year in year out. Why shouldn't teachers be exposed to the same scruitiny that I was when dealing with adolescents who were developing skills?

[JAS]

Ok folks as this was getting to be quite a heavily debated subject I thought it now warrented it's own dedicated thread.

I'll try and transfer over all the relevent stuff I can find in the 'Things that give you sh1ts' thread. Apologies if I miss any...if you find others you want on here just shout and I'll do what I can.

Regards
JAS

[bayman]

i'm waiting to see what baygirl says

[JAS]

Right I think I managaed to pick out the stuff about pay and left things like exams and leaving age where they were...hopefully it all makes sense.

Now play nice or you'll all be on detention

Regards
JAS

[am Bays]

Right I think I managaed to pick out the stuff about pay and left things like exams and leaving age where they were...hopefully it all makes sense.

Now play nice or you'll all be on detention :wink:

Regards
JAS

I'd rather Miss spank me, I've been a very naughty boy....

[A Mum]

I'd rather Miss spank me, I've been a very naughty boy....

I knew one of you was going to say that !!

[Pseudo]

i'm waiting to see what baygirl says

and zippy. There must be a few more of 'em on here...

[A Mum]

i'm waiting to see what baygirl says

and zippy. There must be a few more of 'em on here...

So you are saying those people are teachers ?

[Pag]

What would be the KPIs Tassie?

I think Pag has summed it up quite nicely.

Anythng you want them to be that you can agree on with your manager. And I appreciate that not all kids have the same motivation and lack the parental support/encouragement to learn - as Paq suggested kids simply passing is not an appropriate KPI.

KPIs can be be anything from amount of professional development, peer support, development of lessen plans, review of curriculum, number of new lessons introduced, anything that promotes their own development as professionals. I would suggest that poor teaching has a high correlation with lack of preofessional development, delivery of the same old lessons/programs lack of support.

As a parent I know I have the biggest role in my kids education - I and my wife will be the one constant in their lives as they are educated teachers will come and go. What will p!ss me off is if the teachers they have have made no attempt to better them selves and are deliveryong the same old lessons/programs for the past 5-10 years without any review against current evidence based practice.

As a public servent formally in a service delivery (sport scientist) role to adolescents with questionable motivation I was still expected to review my programs /services and report on outcomes and development of said poorly motivated adolescents. I had to review my programs agaisnt industry best practice and make changes where appropriate so i wasn't doing teh same thing year in year out. Why shouldn't teachers be exposed to the same scruitiny that I was when dealing with adolescents who were developing skills?

Tassie, teachers are required to do 38 hours a year of professional training and development, outside the time they are in the classroom. These programs cover pretty much everything that is relevant to the classroom, and teachers should be drawing from these and applying it in their own room.

Parents complaining about a day off here or there for their kids, without looking at the long-term gains that teachers are trying to put in place for their children, are not looking at the big picture. Would people be ridiculing nurses if they went on strike for better conditions for patients? I'd bet if someone didn't get the care they deserve when in hospital they'd ark up, but kids in public education are being deprived everyday and parents don't seem to care all that much. I understand it's an inconvenience for the day, but if parents looked at what is being fought for (besides pay), and decided to help teachers help their students, the strikes would not last as long and their children's education will get better, quicker.

[Mickyj]

Right I think I managaed to pick out the stuff about pay and left things like exams and leaving age where they were...hopefully it all makes sense.

Now play nice or you'll all be on detention :wink:

Regards
JAS

I'd rather Miss spank me, I've been a very naughty boy....

she just wants to spank you me she wants to spank me and send me Fishing !!!

This Miss Jas is an angel of a teacher
An Angel

[Dutchy]

also I guess as Parents we all have choices and we can make those choices to not put our kids (or pull them out) in the public system....

For anyone to suggest teachers should be exempt from any sort of annual performance review is not living in the real world

[zipzap]

Insterad of striking, I wouldn't mind seeing AEU members only doing the 38 hours a week that full-time work entails. I'd bet the Government would love seeing blank report cards at the end of the year, horribly planned and run lessons, and no tests or assignments marked. Could probably scrap lunch and recess duty under that scheme as well.

Well, that's what our school is doing at the moment - we've chosen not to go on strike but focus on the core business of learning and teaching, while putting on hold the extra-curricular stuff which we truly do heaps of at a school like mine (eg. camps, performances, sports, open nights etc).

It's an interesting scenario - the naive idea was that not striking would limit the impact on the learning of the kids and hopefully reinforce the idea to parents that our core business is teaching their children and that all the extra stuff we do unpaid is icing on the cake, done out of the goodness of our collective heart. The idea is that we do our 38 hours and that's it (the reality of course is not much has changed re my workload - I still do my planning, assessment, training after school).

It got a bit of a (negative) run on Ch 7 and 5AA, thanks largely to a certain newsreader whose child attends the school.
The reaction, I've got to say, has been mostly negative despite some very vocal minority support. It has been seen as quite mean-spirited to deprive kids of their camps especially. But the amount of parents who think a teacher babysitting their kids on a 3 night camp is their God-given right is gob-smacking. (This is the first year I think I've not taken a class on camp BTW and I could count on one hand how many times I've actually been thanked). And, no, you never ever get paid to go on camp - tell me another profession where that would be allowed to happen??

There is actually one agitator who because his kid has chosen to play interstate volleyball all of the final week of school and will thus miss Graduation (another out-of-hours 'expectation' which incidentally staff voted to retain despite the dispute), is furious that teachers will not move the ceremony to the weekend instead. Sorry mate, perhaps in the past but not now... There is still this perception in the community that teachers begin at 9 and knock off at 3 - an incredibly insulting and ignorant view that I'm quite sick to death of to be honest. Unfortunately, despite its intentions, I don't think our school's actions have remedied this situation.

As for things that give you the sh1ts, I'm sick and tired of letters to the editor saying teachers need to join the 'real world', whatever that is, before lumping in their claims with the lot of the automotive industry or child care workers etc as in today's paper (teaching is a University qualified profession and it's not unreasonable to suggest that rates of pay reflect this). I dare say today's modern classroom is a lot more 'real' than when many people went to school - an absolute multi-cultural, socio-economic melting pot where real issues are investigated, technology explored, skills honed etc. A lot more 'real' than being terminally embedded in the same identikit cubicle with a window that doesn't open.

I'm all for performance based pay rates though quite how you do it I'm not sure. There was a guy from the NY Ed system on the 7.30 Report the other night who had some very confronting but powerful possible solutions, but I doubt anyone here would be brave enough to implement them here. BTW teachers DO go through annual performance management / review meetings with their line managers, like Tassie suggests, but if I'm being totally honest, this could afford to be a whole lot more rigorous.

[Dutchy]

Great balanced post ZZ....I have no issue with our good teachers (probably 85% of them) getting paid more as its a critical job they do

Im presuming the under the current system Teachers dont get any "bonus" at the end of the year based on their performance?

[zipzap]

Im presuming the under the current system Teachers dont get any "bonus" at the end of the year based on their performance?

Nope although you can apply to be a Key Teacher which does involve a lot more rigorous performance analysis though the 'bonus' is so woeful it's generally considered not to be worth it.

It is indeed a strange system that rewards a worker for being older, not better.

[Psyber]

The treatment of teachers by governments and officials of governments has to be seen in perspective. There is a pattern.
Governments, of all political philosophies, have successively devalued the professions, starting with nursing and teaching.
They play down the importance of what they do, side with the media in implying they are "soft" and well-paid jobs for the alleged hours, emphasising only the visible work.

Understandably, people get demoralised and frustrated, and either get out or work themselves into the ground trying to maintain standards without recognition and support. In time, the better people stop taking on the role, and the quality of the profession does trend downwards enabling the government and its bureaucracy to claim justification, and life gets harder for those good people who hang in there and pick up the slack from the less dedicated. My wife's family includes a number of teachers, most of whom have backed off and are now teaching only part-time or relieving. My step-daughter is a former intensive care nurse, now doing only occasional shifts and mostly working in a book shop or playing Cello in a musical ensemble doing weddings etc. I've also done a lot of reports for WorkCover claims about teachers and nurses who have been willing horses and finished up run into the ground and abused by management and/or parents for their efforts.

Now, the same bureaucracy is tackling medicine. First, in the mid to late 1980s, there were "too many doctors". Now there is a shortage, but "Nurse Practitioners" and "other health professionals" [whatever they are] we are told can adequately fill the gaps since it is obviously, like nursing and teaching, not a highly skilled occupation. [This is similar to the way in which Nurse Aides became Enrolled Nurses then Nurses over time and were allowed to take over aspects of the Registered Nurse job.]

Medicare rebates, and salaries for hospital staff in SA, Vic, Tas, and NZ have been being held down below inflation since the early 1980s. However, so far not all states have joined in the salary squeeze for salaried doctors, and last year 217 junior doctors left Vic for Qld.

It seems only being an MP or a government bureaucrat is of value to the community.
Lawyers have been exempt so far, I assume because there are many in the parliaments, and MPs salaries are linked to those of Judges in most states.

Rant over - it won't effect me personally, now, as I can afford to opt out too.

[Punk Rooster]

there was a half day school bout 15 years ago - the same day there was a really bad sand storm which covered the state. I lived up the road and had double PE so i went, but there wasnt too many other people around.

half days are better if you start in the morning and finish at lunch

[Sheik Yerbouti]

there was a half day school bout 15 years ago - the same day there was a really bad sand storm which covered the state. I lived up the road and had double PE so i went, but there wasnt too many other people around.

half days are better if you start in the morning and finish at lunch

I'm stealing that, very good.