Teachers pay dispute

[Rik E Boy]

You'd pay about $350-$450K in the areas you mentioned in Adelaide. How much would you pay in Brisbane if you lived 10km from the CBD? In Perth for example, you'd be paying close to $400K to get a house that's further out than Elizabeth. Homes close to Perth CBD (10-15km) are in excess of $1m You said it yourself, in QLD you don't want to live close to the CBD. Here, close to the CBD there's not the same traffic and people conjestions and not the same exhorbitant price tags.

1- Sounds like a bargain for $220K, well played .. but it was 4 years ago what would it cost you now?
2- If you were working here on $30K you'd be getting paid about the same as a receptionist.

Don't get me wrong - if you are prepared to move your family and live a fair way away from CBD's you could easily be financially better off for moving interstate. But the numbers of people who would actually do it for the sake of an extra 4% pay rise over 3 years are very few IMO. That's my point. Remember 4% is the current negotiating difference yet the Union wants to make sweeping statements about teachers walking out of SA

I speak from experience I could have moved my family to Perth last year for more money but elected to stay here for a variety of personal reasons that I felt were more important.

So as you can see hondo I couldn't afford to live in my home area. I wasn't in a very well paid gig when I left Adelaide, maybe I'd be up to about 35k if I had stayed. As for the numbers of teachers who might leave, yeah the Union would have an interest in spinning this line but the latest dispute could be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some teachers...or the next one, the next round of funding cuts, the next time the class sizes increase. And remember you said 'let them go' as well, not 'they won't go'. For your kids sake I hope they don't because you have chosen to stay.

regards,

REB

[Dutchy]

"Thank God we went private with my lad" , the thinking behind this has always baffled me,as for some reason people seem to think a Private Education in some way ensures a better result.

and you also added the comment after my quote implying something I didnt say

[Pag]

SA teachers are the worst paid in the country, by a long shot. Whether or not the cost of living here is less is irrelevant - the fact is it's becoming increasingly difficult to attract the better, brighter candidates (and push out the tired baby boomers but that's another story) as evidenced by the fact that the TER for teaching has dropped markedly in recent years.

EVERY profession is lower paid here in SA - that's life.

I know for a fact that Engineers & Accountants get $20K - $30K more in WA, QLD and NSW. Why not just move there? Well, in those states you have to pay up to 100% more to buy an equivalent house in an equivalent location (distance from city). If teachers want to be paid like they are in other states .... then move there and leave us alone.

Secondly, EVERY profession in EVERY state is finding it hard to find better candidates. There's a skills shortage everywhere.

The Union has got themselves and their members into a riled up, fantasy land and they have made promises to the members that can't deliver. To quote Top Gun ... "they are writing cheques they can't cash". The irony is that it's taken so long that now they are negotiating when the world is on the verge of recession and the Govt budget is taking a hammering. If 21% seemed like a good idea when things were booming 12 months ago, now they've been caught with their pants down.

Most people I speak to are completely over the word "teachers". I think it's time we picketed the office of the Union!

Bravo couldn't agree more. They are very well paid for people with a basic degree. I know many people with muliple higher degrees who work harder and get paid less. Teachers who don't like the pay here should move, they can use the extra pay to service the larger mortgage they will require

A basic degree? I would've thought having a bachelors degree would entitle you to a decent salary? I'd love to know what the people with multiple 'higher' degrees do to earn less mick?

It's not all about salary. Sure, teachers wan't more pay. If you broke down a teacher's pay into a $/hour worked in an average week, I wouldn't think the hourly rate would be very high at the moment. Teachers could do the 38 hours a week they get paid for, but your kids wouldn't have a report sent home at the end of the year, and your child would not experience any camps, excursions, or anything else that takes some organising.

The funding model is just as important in the dispute. I'm not sure how many professional educators sit in parliament, but I'd doubt very much whether there would be many. Our beloved Education minister was a clinical pathologist and medical researcher before joining parliament. How they can constantly refuse to listen to professional eduators (the people who should know best) about the best way to fund schools is baffling to me, and to most other union members. Teachers want the best education for their students, the same thing parents do.

And for those parents who are angry about today, I apologise, but it wasn't the AEU who blokced the strike last night. Blame the Industrial Relations Commission for leaving it so late. The matter has been in their hands since Monday.

EDIT: Just received a Union text message, there's a rally at 4pm today outside Parliament.

[smac]

Pag, we continually hear the $/hour arguement from the union/teachers as well. Teachers aren't the only ones who work more than 38 hours. I don't know of many that do nowadays.

I hope it rains at 4pm (that's to give you a reason for flipping me the bird the other day).

[Q.]

Just as a side note, it's bullsh*t that ANYONE should be made or coerced into doing unpaid work. It's either pay for overtime or get time in lieu, otherwise the boss can go get f*cked.

Unfortunately, it don't quite work that way, the proletariat continually gets rooted from behind.

[Pag]

Pag, we continually hear the $/hour arguement from the union/teachers as well. Teachers aren't the only ones who work more than 38 hours. I don't know of many that do nowadays.

I hope it rains at 4pm (that's to give you a reason for flipping me the bird the other day).

I understand we're not the only ones mate, but I can work at my current job and start at 6am, and anything I do after 2.30pm is time and a half, and anything after 4.30pm is double. Where is the incentive to get good people into the profession?

I might not be there this arvo as I'm finishing my last uni assignment for the year, but I'll pass the message on.

[am Bays]

A basic degree? I would've thought having a bachelors degree would entitle you to a decent salary? I'd love to know what the people with multiple 'higher' degrees do to earn less mick?

It's not all about salary. Sure, teachers wan't more pay. If you broke down a teacher's pay into a $/hour worked in an average week, I wouldn't think the hourly rate would be very high at the moment. Teachers could do the 38 hours a week they get paid for, but your kids wouldn't have a report sent home at the end of the year, and your child would not experience any camps, excursions, or anything else that takes some organising.

The funding model is just as important in the dispute. I'm not sure how many professional educators sit in parliament, but I'd doubt very much whether there would be many. Our beloved Education minister was a clinical pathologist and medical researcher before joining parliament. How they can constantly refuse to listen to professional eduators (the people who should know best) about the best way to fund schools is baffling to me, and to most other union members. Teachers want the best education for their students, the same thing parents do.

And for those parents who are angry about today, I apologise, but it wasn't the AEU who blokced the strike last night. Blame the Industrial Relations Commission for leaving it so late. The matter has been in their hands since Monday.

EDIT: Just received a Union text message, there's a rally at 4pm today outside Parliament.

Bzzt wrong

AS somone with a bachelors degree a bachelors degree does not entitle you to a decent salary, F*** a bachelors degree didn't even get you an interview in my former vocation - similar role to teachers developing 12-18 year olds to potential future careers...

To me a bachelors degree merely opnes the door to a potential salary it is your skills and experience that entitles you to a decent salary not what you did at Uni.

Zipper I like Dutchy am still waiting for a decent arguemnet from the teaching profession on their professional development.

I wish I could get 24 days paid professional developmet under my agreement....

I'm supposedly entitled to eight but have never got it in over 10 years...

Yes teachers work hard and yes I want to see them get reasonably paid for what they do, yes they work their butts off for 40 weeks off the year but then they get 12 weeks holiday. Swings and roundabouts swings and roundabouts.

Once again this coming from the son of a public school teacher so yes I do know how hard they work and how some don't work having grown up in teacher staff rooms.

[Pag]

A basic degree? I would've thought having a bachelors degree would entitle you to a decent salary? I'd love to know what the people with multiple 'higher' degrees do to earn less mick?

It's not all about salary. Sure, teachers wan't more pay. If you broke down a teacher's pay into a $/hour worked in an average week, I wouldn't think the hourly rate would be very high at the moment. Teachers could do the 38 hours a week they get paid for, but your kids wouldn't have a report sent home at the end of the year, and your child would not experience any camps, excursions, or anything else that takes some organising.

The funding model is just as important in the dispute. I'm not sure how many professional educators sit in parliament, but I'd doubt very much whether there would be many. Our beloved Education minister was a clinical pathologist and medical researcher before joining parliament. How they can constantly refuse to listen to professional eduators (the people who should know best) about the best way to fund schools is baffling to me, and to most other union members. Teachers want the best education for their students, the same thing parents do.

And for those parents who are angry about today, I apologise, but it wasn't the AEU who blokced the strike last night. Blame the Industrial Relations Commission for leaving it so late. The matter has been in their hands since Monday.

EDIT: Just received a Union text message, there's a rally at 4pm today outside Parliament.

Bzzt wrong

AS somone with a bachelors degree a bachelors degree does not entitle you to a decent salary, F*** a bachelors degree didn't even get you an interview in my former vocation - similar role to teachers developing 12-18 year olds to potential future careers...

To me a bachelors degree merely opnes the door to a potential salary it is your skills and experience that entitles you to a decent salary not what you did at Uni.

So Tassie, would you recommend I give uni up and instead of teach, work 50 hours a week in my current casual job (which requires not alot of thinking, skill or ability in my role), and earn more than what I would with my degree?

I can't see how this sort of situation will entice people to become educators.

[Rik E Boy]

Read Tassie's post again Pag. As an educator you would know that you should be committed to lifelong learning, therefore, the degree opens the door, provides opportunities but is not a means to an end. At least, that's what I think Wrinkles is getting at.

Cheers,

REB

[Pag]

Read Tassie's post again Pag. As an educator you would know that you should be committed to lifelong learning, therefore, the degree opens the door, provides opportunities but is not a means to an end. At least, that's what I think Wrinkles is getting at.

Cheers,

REB

I understand that, and I know that I'll probably learn more in my first 3-4 years out than what I will for the four years I spend at uni, and I'll continue to learn new ways of doing things as I get older. Hence why a first-year-out teacher doesn't get paid what a teacher of 25 years does.

[mick]

Pag, I know a number of Associate lecturers (tutors) at the University who hold Honours and PhDs who are getting paid about the same as teachers. I know many other PhDs in research who get about the same as teachers, who have no industrial muscle who will fall behind teachers.

Having known many teachers over the years the unpaid overtime thing is a myth for many of them. If teachers were accountable, set KPIs (key performance indicators) on renewable contracts so non performers can be removed without fuss I would have no problem with them being very well paid as I think it is an important job, but individual teachers are currently unaccountable, the great teachers would have no problem with KPIs. During my school life perhaps 25% of teachers were great or inspiring, 50% were adequate and 25% were hopeless. However the union dictates they all get the same regardless of performance.

[am Bays]

Paq your career choices are up to you. I know I choose a bachelors degree as a first step as it beat stacking boxes onto a pallet in a warehouse....

It was the subsequent qualification that allows me to earn a better than average salary

The good thing about a degree/trade certificate is that once you got it they can't take it away from you so it open doors for you to earn as much or as litlle as you want to.

I know when I am on selection panels a degree qualification doesn't impress me other saying they have cetain knowledge - I want to know how they use that knowledge (skills) and demonstrable experiences to make a difference gets you in my door whn selecting peple. BTW based on feedback I know those same principles have been applied to me when I've been teh one applying (unsuccessfull).

My former profession is under paid - I could never earn what I earn now in the high performance sport industry - but the job satisfaction is high also makes you want to do the unpaid work... 5:30 am starts and 9:00 pm finishes.

So it is not just $$$$ that makes people choose careers job satisfaction is one advantage of a degree.

As I said up to you

[Pag]

Paq your career choices are up to you. I know I choose a bachelors degree as a first step as it beat stacking boxes onto a pallet in a warehouse....

It was the subsequent qualification that allows me to earn a better than average salary

The good thing about a degree/trade certificate is that once you got it they can't take it away from you so it open doors for you to earn as much or as litlle as you want to.

I know when I am on selection panels a degree qualification doesn't impress me other saying they have cetain knowledge - I want to know how they use that knowledge (skills) and demonstrable experiences to make a difference gets you in my door whn selecting peple. BTW based on feedback I know those same principles have been applied to me when I've been teh one applying (unsuccessfull).

My former profession is under paid - I could never earn what I earn now in the high performance sport industry - but the job satisfaction is high also makes you want to do the unpaid work... 5:30 am starts and 9:00 pm finishes.

So it is not just $$$$ that makes people choose careers job satisfaction is one advantage of a degree.

As I said up to you

I understand, and it was a hypothetical question as I could never do my casual job every day for years or I would go insane. I enjoy the challenge of teaching and I'll do it regardless of the result of the current situation.

During my school life perhaps 25% of teachers were great or inspiring, 50% were adequate and 25% were hopeless. However the union dictates they all get the same regardless of performance.

I understand this point as well mick, and this topic took up almost the whole first two pages of this thread. What would you use as KPIs? Should northern suburbs teachers be paid less than those in the eastern suburbs because their students results aren't as good?

[Dutchy]

Having known many teachers over the years the unpaid overtime thing is a myth for many of them. If teachers were accountable, set KPIs (key performance indicators) on renewable contracts so non performers can be removed without fuss I would have no problem with them being very well paid as I think it is an important job, but individual teachers are currently unaccountable, the great teachers would have no problem with KPIs. During my school life perhaps 25% of teachers were great or inspiring, 50% were adequate and 25% were hopeless. However the union dictates they all get the same regardless of performance.

Best post on this whole thread, I dont think anyone here has any problem with the vast majority of teachers that work their arse off for our kids, some accountability and getting paid for performance is a normal way for any form of workers to get rewarded these days

And for the record my sister is a teacher so I know how hard they work

Also interesting to note that our Prime Minister send his kids to a private school, does that say something? Im not so sure

[mick]

Paq your career choices are up to you. I know I choose a bachelors degree as a first step as it beat stacking boxes onto a pallet in a warehouse....

It was the subsequent qualification that allows me to earn a better than average salary

The good thing about a degree/trade certificate is that once you got it they can't take it away from you so it open doors for you to earn as much or as litlle as you want to.

I know when I am on selection panels a degree qualification doesn't impress me other saying they have cetain knowledge - I want to know how they use that knowledge (skills) and demonstrable experiences to make a difference gets you in my door whn selecting peple. BTW based on feedback I know those same principles have been applied to me when I've been teh one applying (unsuccessfull).

My former profession is under paid - I could never earn what I earn now in the high performance sport industry - but the job satisfaction is high also makes you want to do the unpaid work... 5:30 am starts and 9:00 pm finishes.

So it is not just $$$$ that makes people choose careers job satisfaction is one advantage of a degree.

As I said up to you

I understand, and it was a hypothetical question as I could never do my casual job every day for years or I would go insane. I enjoy the challenge of teaching and I'll do it regardless of the result of the current situation.

During my school life perhaps 25% of teachers were great or inspiring, 50% were adequate and 25% were hopeless. However the union dictates they all get the same regardless of performance.

I understand this point as well mick, and this topic took up almost the whole first two pages of this thread. What would you use as KPIs? Should northern suburbs teachers be paid less than those in the eastern suburbs because their students results aren't as good?

Unfortunately the government system has the potential to become functionally more elitist than the private sector. I think the good teachers will want to teach in the "good" schools which are unfortunately located in the "good" suburbs. I know people who have moved to avoid sending their kids to certain schools I think indicators should take into account that it will be harder to achieve brilliant results in all areas. How this would be done I don't know, but isn't some sort of scaling now done based upon the school for year 12 results? It just doesn't seem right that the top people in a profession should get the same as the crap. Is that the difference between a profession and a job?

[Dogwatcher]

Those who are prepared to teach in the less 'popular' areas should be paid better than those who teach at a 'better' school.
No matter how little they teach, teachers at some schools deserve every cent they get.

[mick]

Those who are prepared to teach in the less 'popular' areas should be paid better than those who teach at a 'better' school.
No matter how little they teach, teachers at some schools deserve every cent they get.

Agree with the first statement to some extent. The second is a strange thing say, surely if they are teachers they should teach? If they are simply acting as child minders from 9-3.30, maybe the government could save money employing security guards to do the same task?

[Pag]

Those who are prepared to teach in the less 'popular' areas should be paid better than those who teach at a 'better' school.
No matter how little they teach, teachers at some schools deserve every cent they get.

Agree with the first statement to some extent. The second is a strange thing say, surely if they are teachers they should teach? If they are simply acting as child minders from 9-3.30, maybe the government could save money employing security guards to do the same task?

Speaking from limited experience (in the north), teachers go in with every intent to teach as much possible. But more time does get taken up dealing with behaviour management issues than other places, which means less time for teaching.

[mypaddock]

I know this is a bit off topic but has some relevance when talking about student results.
Does the push for new conditions also include an overhaul of the curriculum?
I remember doing Modern History in year 12 and we were made to learn about the Russian revolution for the entire unit! I for one had little interest in it and thought we would be studying something that actually had some relevance to Australia! If I had my choice again I would have not picked that subject.
Who decides on such things- are these set by a curriculum board or do teachers choose these themselves?

[Drop Bear]

Having known many teachers over the years the unpaid overtime thing is a myth for many of them. If teachers were accountable, set KPIs (key performance indicators) on renewable contracts so non performers can be removed without fuss I would have no problem with them being very well paid as I think it is an important job, but individual teachers are currently unaccountable, the great teachers would have no problem with KPIs. During my school life perhaps 25% of teachers were great or inspiring, 50% were adequate and 25% were hopeless. However the union dictates they all get the same regardless of performance.

Well said. I have a couple of uncles who teach. They're view is along the same lines.