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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby Grahaml » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:07 am

Rams52 wrote:Reading all the other riders saying things like "I knew he was cheating/taking drugs etc" is slightly amusing to me. I obviously do not know either way but I remember reading an article a long time ago about his triaing regime leading into a TDF. It was crazy the amount of work he did. Sometimes 3 sessions a day; weights, 3 hour road ride, 1 1/2 hour high intensity stationary bike session. It was amazing the lengths he went to to succeed.


I heard the cancer itself changed his body in ways that later helped him on the road. It leaned out his muscle mass while he opted for treatments that didn't have negative effects on his lungs despite if being more painful. He was always a talented rider though and to be up so high for so long without getting caught when so many did suggests he's more likely to be clean. Either that or he constantly cheated and just didn't get detected which seems absurdly unlikely. Especially since he was more scrutinised than anyone else.

Couple that with the fact that most (perhaps all?) of his accusers did so only after getting caught. It seems obvious to me that Landis, Hamilton etc etc are trying to reduce their penalties or save some reputation by dobbing in Lance. They have no proof, they have no credibility. Floyd Landis is a proven liar and con man. He denied the allegations for YEARS. He even took money from regular people to fund his legal costs under the pretense of being innnocent and unable to fight on without millions in donations. Then his avenues are exhausted and he fesses up, but decides to take to Lance's reputation. What about repaying the money, Floyd?

This action, to me is sickening. He's effectively being punished without anything yet proven. If they have proof or medical information that gives something pretty concrete then great. But why now? This is 2 years after the apparently dodgy blood samples. A positive test is announced as such and a ban is immediate. But this isn't even being billed as a positive test but rather a politically correct statement about being consistent with blah blah blah. It seems that an easy target has been picked by a number of men with credibility issues trying to gain something back and the USADA has rounded them up and tried to make something of it. Until there is some proof other than the testimony of cheats, liars and con artists Armstrong cannot be punished in any form. He must be allowed to compete (and hopefully the powers come to their sense and remove the ban) under assumed innocence until that innocence is proven wrong.
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby am Bays » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:42 pm

What about his two failed A samples but the he got off with an explained cortico-steroid at the 1999 tour and a "missing" B sample got that allegedly got tampered with??

There are traces of EPO in his urine samples from the 1999 tour but due to "storage issues of keeping the urine" and the fact that the urine test for EPO is not of significant reliability to prove that someone is one it, he has never officially be "done" for taking it. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/3121089/Lance-Armstrong-turns-down-offer-to-re-test-1999-samples-Tour-de-France.html

It is why the IOC didn't adapt the urine test for EPO before the Sydney Olympics. The test incidently was developed by a team that included two Australians from the AIS Chris Gore and Alan Hahn - two absolute legends and top blokes. The blood test though that has been is very good (reliable and valid) and why some sports and athletes were afraid to adopt blood testing it due to what skeletons they were afraid to find....

I think what has happened is they are have gone back and tested samples from 2009 and 2010 based on new sophisticated tests and found irregularities. So I think they wont be able to prove anything from when he won his tours but if he could be in trouble for his "comeback years". In the charges, outlined in a 15-page charging letter obtained by The Washington Post, USADA has alleged that it had collected blood samples from Armstrong in 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions”. http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/armstrong-and-cycling-finally-confront-elephant-in-the-room-20120614-20bg4.html?skin=text-only. It is interesting that last night I found a ciitation for an abstract where Chris Gore provided an update on the r-RNA testing developmets for EPO at a 2009 Australian National Elite Sports Council - Athletes Services seminar.

The whole never tested positive in the past doesn't wash with me, Marion Jones never tested positive in her career but subsequent information that came to pass from the Balco labs and the fact she purgered herself cost her, her Olympic Medals. Same for me with Armstrong never failed a est but I bet he was on something like many of his peers. The problem has always been that the drug takers have always kept ahead of drug testers so yep athletes don't get caught (only the dumb ones). It is now that the sports authorities are keeping samples for later testing when new tests are being develop that the perceived legends of our sports are having their pasts caught up with them.

I respect Armstrong as an incredible athlete and yes he won tours against those who admitted to participating in doping activities in the past (Reiis and Uhlrich to name but two) so you could claim he deserves those titles as he was the best of the dirty bunch.

But did he take better "ergogenic aids" than the others, so that meant he was better or was it his athletic ability that made him win??

Mind you if you pre-scribe to Fox, Bowers and Foss' defination of an ergogenic aid: Any factor that improves work performance, where do you draw the line at "ergogenic aid"? Does coaching help, does the equipment help (Giant v Orbea v Scott bikes), do conditioning coaches help??? Should we ban all those and have stock standard equipment so we really find out who is the best athlete??
Last edited by am Bays on Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let that be a lesson to you Port, no one beats the Bays five times in a row in a GF and gets away with it!!!
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby pels » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:58 pm

am Bays wrote:What about his two failed A samples but the he got off with an explained cortico-steroid at the 1999 tour and a "missing" B sample got that allegedly got tampered with??

There are traces of EPO in his urine samples from the 1999 tour but due to "storage issues of keeping the urine" and the fact that the urine test for EPO is not of significant reliability to prove that someone is one it, he has never officially be "done" for taking it. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/3121089/Lance-Armstrong-turns-down-offer-to-re-test-1999-samples-Tour-de-France.html


It is why the IOC didn't adapt the urine test for EPO before the Sydney Olympics. The test incidently was developed by a team that included two Australians from the AIS Chris Gore and Alan Hahn - two absolute legends and top blokes. The blood test though that has been is very good (reliable and valid) and why some sports and athletes were afraid to adopt blood testing it due to what skeletons they were afraid to find....

I think what has happened is they are have gone back and tested samples from 2009 and 2010 based on new sophisticated tests and found irregularities. So I think they wont be able to prove anything from when he won his tours but if he could be in trouble for his "comeback years". In the charges, outlined in a 15-page charging letter obtained by The Washington Post, USADA has alleged that it had collected blood samples from Armstrong in 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions”. http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/armstrong-and-cycling-finally-confront-elephant-in-the-room-20120614-20bg4.html?skin=text-only. It is interesting that last night I found a ciitation for an abstract where Chris Gore provided an update on the r-RNA testing developmets for EPO at a 2009 Australian National Elite Sports Council - Athletes Services seminar.

The whole never tested positive in the past doesn't wash with me, Marion Jones never tested positive in here career but subsequent information that came to pass from the Balco labs and the fact she purgered herself cost her, her Olympic Medals. Same for me with Armstrong never failed a est but i bet he was on something like many of his peers. The problem has always been that the drug takers have always kept ahead of drug testers so yep athletes don't get caught (only the dumb ones). It is now that the sports authorities are keeping samples for later testing when new tests are being develop that the perceived legends of our sports are having their pasts caught up with them.

I respect Armstrong as an incredible athlete and yes he won tours against those who admitted to participating in doping activities in the past (Reiis and Uhlrich to name but two) so you could claim he deserves those titles as he was the best of the dirty bunch.

But did he take better "ergogenic aids" than the others, so that meant he was better or was it his athelteic ability that made him win??

Mind you if you pre-scribe to Fox, Bowers and Foss' defiantion of an ergogenic aid: Any factor that improves work performance, where do you draw the line at "ergogenic aid"? Does coaching help, does the equipment help (Giant v Orbea v Scott bikes), do conditioning coaches help??? Should we ban all those and have stock standard equipment so we really find out who is the best athlete??


Well said am bays, no doubt in my mind he doped along with most of the peloton from early 90s to mid 2000s.Time for him now to face the music :D
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby Grahaml » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:35 pm

If he did it, and I'm not convinced he's clean at all, then I hope this does prove it. But I just hope this case has some proof and isn't just the word of liars. I also don't see why a 2009 sample can now be shown as proof but it wasn't in 2009, 2010 or 2011. It would stagger me if he came back and doped. The whole reason to return was partly to prove he was clean! He could have gained publicity for his cancer foundation and wouldn't have had his reputation tarnished by having a relatively poor return. As an ordinary domestique we would have all understood that age and a few years off could easily be the difference between a winner and a normal rider.

I know there have been stories, investigations and allegations many times. I know there has also been plenty of controversy. But by the same token it's yet to be proven. All those stories and allegations have not been enough to prove it. It's well known the French didn't like him so I doubt the TDF and the UCI would be involved in a cover up to help Armstrong. If they could prove it, they would have.
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:03 pm

Dutch outfit Rabobank has named its provisional team for the 2012 Tour de France, which starts in Liège on June 30. Their main challenge in the overall general classification will as expected be led by Robert Gesink and Bauke Mollema, while Steven Kruijswijk has been named as co-leader in what will be his first appearance in the race.

In all there will be six Dutch riders in orange on the start line, with three foreign riders - Mark Renshaw (Austraila), Luis Leon Sanchez (Spain) and Martin Wynants (Belgium) - making up the rest of the team of nine.

Rabobank squad for 2012 Tour de France: Laurens Ten Dam, Robert Gesink, Steven Kruijswijk, Bauke Mollema, Mark Renshaw, Luis Leon Sanchez, Bram Tankink, Maarten Tjallingii and Maarten Wynants
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:04 pm

Team Sky's Mark Cavendish claimed the first general classification victory of his career by winning the Ster ZLM Toer on Sunday by eight seconds ahead of Lars Boom (Rabobank).
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:06 pm

American Chris Horner will be a part of the RadioShack-Nissan team for the Tour de France after all. The squad announced its nine riders for the race, which begins on June 30 in Liège, Belgium today.
Since newly declared 2010 Tour de France champion Andy Schleck is out of the race with a fractured sacrum, sustained during the Critérium du Dauphiné, and his brother Fränk is declining the role as leader citing fatigue after his second place in the Tour de Suisse, Horner could be one of the team's GC leaders for the Tour de France.

RadioShack-Nissan team for the TDF- In addition to Horner, the team will be represented by Fabian Cancellara, Tony Gallopin, Andreas Klöden, Maxime Monfort, Yaroslav Popovych, Fränk Schleck, Jens Voigt and Haimar Zubeldia.
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby Grahaml » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:22 pm

Frank Schleck has plenty of support in that team, but I don't think he's quite good enough to ride away from the better time triallers in the mountains. The wild card in that team is Kloden. I rate that guy, if they ride for him instead of Schleck he could rival Cadel and Wiggins. If not, he could be the last helper left when the top guys battle it out on those stages where the tour will be won and lost. That in itself could be Schleck's best hope.
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:24 pm

Grahaml wrote:Frank Schleck has plenty of support in that team, but I don't think he's quite good enough to ride away from the better time triallers in the mountains. The wild card in that team is Kloden. I rate that guy, if they ride for him instead of Schleck he could rival Cadel and Wiggins. If not, he could be the last helper left when the top guys battle it out on those stages where the tour will be won and lost. That in itself could be Schleck's best hope.


I would suggest Kloden has more chance of GC Podium finish than Frank Schleck, who makes his brother look good in a Time Trial
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:57 pm

Fabian Cancellara put the disappointment of his second-place finish at last week’s Tour de Suisse by blitzing the course nearly two minutes faster than his closest rival, Thomas Frei (Christina Watches-Onfone) at the Swiss national time trial championships. It was Cancellara's seventh natiponal time trial title. The small but select field saw Martin Elimiger (AG2R La Mondiale) round out the final podium spot.

Defending champion Martin Kohler (BMC Racing Team) was unable to repeat his success of last year and came in fourth place, nearly three-minutes behind the reigning Olympic and former world champion
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:28 pm

The nine ORICA-GreenEDGE riders for the Tour de France are Baden Cooke, Brett Lancaster, Daryl Impey, Matt Goss, Michael Albasini, Pieter Weening, Sebastian Langeveld, Simon Gerrans and Stuart O’Grady
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby am Bays » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:12 pm

Grahaml wrote:If he did it, and I'm not convinced he's clean at all, then I hope this does prove it. But I just hope this case has some proof and isn't just the word of liars. I also don't see why a 2009 sample can now be shown as proof but it wasn't in 2009, 2010 or 2011. It would stagger me if he came back and doped. The whole reason to return was partly to prove he was clean! He could have gained publicity for his cancer foundation and wouldn't have had his reputation tarnished by having a relatively poor return. As an ordinary domestique we would have all understood that age and a few years off could easily be the difference between a winner and a normal rider.

I know there have been stories, investigations and allegations many times. I know there has also been plenty of controversy. But by the same token it's yet to be proven. All those stories and allegations have not been enough to prove it. It's well known the French didn't like him so I doubt the TDF and the UCI would be involved in a cover up to help Armstrong. If they could prove it, they would have.


Not pointing out you post in particular grahaml (don't want to have four large embeded quotes in my post but yours is topical to my link), but an interesting artical from todays Age.http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/bring-truth-into-play-by-saying-yes-to-drugs-in-sport-20120628-215cn.html

Philosphically whats the difference between taking the ergogenic aid in the form of naturally occuring substance found in powerade/gatorade to improve performance or a vial of naturally occuring substance such as Human Growth Hormone or EPO?
Let that be a lesson to you Port, no one beats the Bays five times in a row in a GF and gets away with it!!!
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby mickey » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:05 pm

Is anyone doing the SBS fantasy tour?
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:09 pm

mickey wrote:Is anyone doing the SBS fantasy tour?


Signed up..but just never got around to the team selection :(
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby mickey » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:14 pm

brod wrote:
mickey wrote:Is anyone doing the SBS fantasy tour?


Signed up..but just never got around to the team selection :(


still 6hours before it starts.. i just picked a team.. or u can auto fil it
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby Jim05 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:24 pm

The USADA has oficially filed doping charged against Lance Armstrong today, this is going to ugly IMO
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby dedja » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:51 pm

... And expensive
Dunno, I’m just an idiot.

I’m only the administrator of the estate of dedja
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:49 pm

The race has started (Gerrans was second to ride)....and we are watching Gabriel Gate.... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby Grahaml » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:25 pm

am Bays wrote:
Grahaml wrote:If he did it, and I'm not convinced he's clean at all, then I hope this does prove it. But I just hope this case has some proof and isn't just the word of liars. I also don't see why a 2009 sample can now be shown as proof but it wasn't in 2009, 2010 or 2011. It would stagger me if he came back and doped. The whole reason to return was partly to prove he was clean! He could have gained publicity for his cancer foundation and wouldn't have had his reputation tarnished by having a relatively poor return. As an ordinary domestique we would have all understood that age and a few years off could easily be the difference between a winner and a normal rider.

I know there have been stories, investigations and allegations many times. I know there has also been plenty of controversy. But by the same token it's yet to be proven. All those stories and allegations have not been enough to prove it. It's well known the French didn't like him so I doubt the TDF and the UCI would be involved in a cover up to help Armstrong. If they could prove it, they would have.


Not pointing out you post in particular grahaml (don't want to have four large embeded quotes in my post but yours is topical to my link), but an interesting artical from todays Age.http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/bring-truth-into-play-by-saying-yes-to-drugs-in-sport-20120628-215cn.html

Philosphically whats the difference between taking the ergogenic aid in the form of naturally occuring substance found in powerade/gatorade to improve performance or a vial of naturally occuring substance such as Human Growth Hormone or EPO?


Lol. No issue with that. I understand the argument but I do like the idea of maximum natural ability as opposed to maximum ability. Powerade/gatorade can be replicated without the aid of a lab (it is after all a salty/sugary water) while EPO or HGH can't be replicated by diet or hard work. You can easily put a bunch of things in the legal performance enhancer category, like Aero gear, water bottles, post race massages but ultimately I think we all know the difference between cheating and legal activity. The reason cheating should remain illegal is it should be decided by the harder worker and not the one happiest to risk their continued existence that should win. Many athletes have died as early as 35 due to drug use and this is, to me, totally unacceptable.
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Re: Pro Cycling

Postby brod » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:16 pm

George Hincapie, a key lieutenant of Tour de France champion Cadel Evans, has declined to comment directly on an allegation he has testified against Lance Armstrong.

Hincapie is among four American cyclists riding in this year's Tour who have allegedly given evidence to a US Anti-Doping Agency investigation.

A report in Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf on Thursday also alleged Garmin-Sharp team boss Jonathan Vaughters had testified.

The other riders named were Dave Zabriskie, Christian Vande Velde and Levi Leipheimer.

All rode in Armstrong's teams at various stages as he won a record seven Tours from 1999-2005.
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