HFL Division 1 (Central)

[Armytank]

This is the start of the new season. It started the day after the GF. Leaving these issues until after the next calendar year is too late. If you're on a committee you would know this & if you are on a committee & haven't started planning for next year you are way behind.

NO KIDDING - PERHAPS PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN SORTED OUT LAST YEAR

OH WAIT THIS HAPPENED WHEN BIRDWOOD WERE FORCED DOWN AND ALL THE CLUBS GOT TO VOTE ON IT THEN

ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND WE GO - SAME SHIT EVERY COUPLE OF YEARS......................

So it should never be discussed again then if it was voted on 4 years ago. Excellent coz the capping issue was voted on this year so we won't have to hear that sh!t talked about again. That is definitely an issue that goes round & round.

It only goes round and round because it is allowed to by dealing with it late when people are emotional and with an air of elitism.

Of course some issues are continuous and need constant attention. But this is bandaid stuff. Constant attention should be applied rationally, not reactionary.

Everyone knew the state of play round 1 2013.

Now that is doesn't suit some people, we are asked to quickly change to rules.

Just plain arrogant and ignorant.

[magpiemaster]

Can’t really see why everyone is bagging Mt Lofty, if I were involved with that club I would want them to do everything in their power to stay in top div action. Can’t blame them for wanting that really. No doubt the best thing for both leagues would be to see Mt Lofty go to div2 but I certainly don’t blame them for trying to stay in Div 1. If they get out voted then bad luck but I Have heard some clubs around the HFL are backing the Mt Lofty push to stay in div1, so I think it will be a close vote. It’s highly unfortunate for the league that Mt Lofty were the team this year that has finished bottom. Bridgy over the last 10-15 years would easily be the worst performed club and I have no doubt all other clubs would vote them out in an heart beat due to their horrible facilities and the playing conditions faced there on a weekly basis.

[Armytank]

I don't really blame Lofty for trying, I blame the HFL and the other elitist clubs for entertaining them

[Gervais]

Can’t really see why everyone is bagging Mt Lofty, if I were involved with that club I would want them to do everything in their power to stay in top div action. Can’t blame them for wanting that really. No doubt the best thing for both leagues would be to see Mt Lofty go to div2 but I certainly don’t blame them for trying to stay in Div 1. If they get out voted then bad luck but I Have heard some clubs around the HFL are backing the Mt Lofty push to stay in div1, so I think it will be a close vote. It’s highly unfortunate for the league that Mt Lofty were the team this year that has finished bottom. Bridgy over the last 10-15 years would easily be the worst performed club and I have no doubt all other clubs would vote them out in an heart beat due to their horrible facilities and the playing conditions faced there on a weekly basis.

why is it unfortunate for the league that lofty finished bottom ?

it makes no difference who gets relegated. no team is "too big" to go down, or more deserving to remain in central division. surely the hfl clubs are too wise to get sucked into the argument that lofty are putting up. the devils knew the by-laws at the start of 2013 mandated that the club finishing bottom in the points table were liable for relegation should a country division team want to come up. due to their own internal mismanagement they had to let their highly-paid recruits go, and years of imports meant that their was nothing beneath to sustain the club playing wise. remember, both their a and b grade finished bottom in 2013.

agree that bridgewater have been the worst performed team over the past decade, however they weren't in 2013 when it counted. as for their facilities, they now play home games on the best playing surface in the hills, so that argument is now gone forever.

[cracka]

Dont think anyone knew at rd 1 2013 that Echunga would be nominating to move to central div otherwise this issue probably would have been discussed earlier. Torrens Valley were the last side to move divs so Echungas move was unexpected. Birdwood did the same as Lofty are doing (try to change central div) when they were forced to country as I'm sure every club would.
By the way I'm not supporting Lofty's proposal, personally I think it should stay as a 10 team comp, but to lay the blame on the HFL for this is wrong, they have to listen to this, they wouldn't be doing their job properly if they didn't & then people would bag them for that. Damned if they do & damned if they don't.

[Howard]

Would Mt Lofty (or any other club) be so reluctant to go to the Country division if they didn't have to drag their juniors with them? Could the solution be that the junior and senior competition be separated? ie allow clubs to nominate their junior teams wherever they best fit, whether that is in Central or Country.
As an example only - Birdwood, Meadows and Nairne juniors play Central, Uraidla, Ironbank and Torrens Valley in Country, it would take some programming but surely could be done and would be better than forcing the whole club (like Mt Lofty) into a division that could decimate their junior program.

[Gervais]

Dont think anyone knew at rd 1 2013 that Echunga would be nominating to move to central div otherwise this issue probably would have been discussed earlier. Torrens Valley were the last side to move divs so Echungas move was unexpected. Birdwood did the same as Lofty are doing (try to change central div) when they were forced to country as I'm sure every club would.
By the way I'm not supporting Lofty's proposal, personally I think it should stay as a 10 team comp, but to lay the blame on the HFL for this is wrong, they have to listen to this, they wouldn't be doing their job properly if they didn't & then people would bag them for that. Damned if they do & damned if they don't.

and there is the most important thing raised on this forum today. when birdwood were in the same position they were made to go down. i wonder if the devils supported birdwoods bid to change the competition to 11 teams - i doubt it.

[cracka]

Dont think anyone knew at rd 1 2013 that Echunga would be nominating to move to central div otherwise this issue probably would have been discussed earlier. Torrens Valley were the last side to move divs so Echungas move was unexpected. Birdwood did the same as Lofty are doing (try to change central div) when they were forced to country as I'm sure every club would.
By the way I'm not supporting Lofty's proposal, personally I think it should stay as a 10 team comp, but to lay the blame on the HFL for this is wrong, they have to listen to this, they wouldn't be doing their job properly if they didn't & then people would bag them for that. Damned if they do & damned if they don't.

and there is the most important thing raised on this forum today. when birdwood were in the same position they were made to go down. i wonder if the devils supported birdwoods bid to change the competition to 11 teams - i doubt it.

Apparently they were dead against it so its a bit of karma here.

[Armytank]

Dont think anyone knew at rd 1 2013 that Echunga would be nominating to move to central div

No, but EVERYONE knew that the there was a posibility of a Country Div team, who ever that be, to nominate for Central, providing they fullfulled the criteria.

This is not about Echunga, or Mt. Lofty. This is about the rules being voted and agreed upon, then being asked to change because someone is in the gun seat.

Correct to say that the HFL would not be doing its job if it didn't listen, but this was clearly set out for all affiliated clubs prior to Echunga's nomination to Central.

Mt. Lofty can bleat on all they like, and the HFL can do everything it is doing to represent them.

BUT 2014's rules were set out long ago and everyone knew about them. To say that no one knew Echunga would nominate is moot and ignorant to the process that was followed after the last debacle when Birdwood were forced down.

[Look Good In Leather]

Would Mt Lofty (or any other club) be so reluctant to go to the Country division if they didn't have to drag their juniors with them? Could the solution be that the junior and senior competition be separated? ie allow clubs to nominate their junior teams wherever they best fit, whether that is in Central or Country.
As an example only - Birdwood, Meadows and Nairne juniors play Central, Uraidla, Ironbank and Torrens Valley in Country, it would take some programming but surely could be done and would be better than forcing the whole club (like Mt Lofty) into a division that could decimate their junior program.

Separating the juniors from the seniors would do more harm than good

[cracka]

Dont think anyone knew at rd 1 2013 that Echunga would be nominating to move to central div

No, but EVERYONE knew that the there was a posibility of a Country Div team, who ever that be, to nominate for Central, providing they fullfulled the criteria.

This is not about Echunga, or Mt. Lofty. This is about the rules being voted and agreed upon, then being asked to change because someone is in the gun seat.

Correct to say that the HFL would not be doing its job if it didn't listen, but this was clearly set out for all affiliated clubs prior to Echunga's nomination to Central.

Mt. Lofty can bleat on all they like, and the HFL can do everything it is doing to represent them.

BUT 2014's rules were set out long ago and everyone knew about them. To say that no one knew Echunga would nominate is moot and ignorant to the process that was followed after the last debacle when Birdwood were forced down.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. The rules were there at the start of the season & Lofty got caught offguard by not expecting Echunga to move.
I don't agree with people blaming the HFL for this being an issue though. If Onkas were in Lofty's position I would hope we would do the same & would expect the HFL to do exactly what they are doing. I'm sure Ironbank would fight to stay in central div also & expect the HFL to listen.
The person you need to focus your attention on if you disagree with this is your club president/rep who will be voting on it on Monday. It's only going to take 1 central club vote to defeat this as I'm pretty sure all the country clubs will vote against it coz if they don't, its the death of country div IMO.

[cracka]

Would Mt Lofty (or any other club) be so reluctant to go to the Country division if they didn't have to drag their juniors with them? Could the solution be that the junior and senior competition be separated? ie allow clubs to nominate their junior teams wherever they best fit, whether that is in Central or Country.
As an example only - Birdwood, Meadows and Nairne juniors play Central, Uraidla, Ironbank and Torrens Valley in Country, it would take some programming but surely could be done and would be better than forcing the whole club (like Mt Lofty) into a division that could decimate their junior program.

Separating the juniors from the seniors would do more harm than good

Correct.

[Howard]

Would Mt Lofty (or any other club) be so reluctant to go to the Country division if they didn't have to drag their juniors with them? Could the solution be that the junior and senior competition be separated? ie allow clubs to nominate their junior teams wherever they best fit, whether that is in Central or Country.
As an example only - Birdwood, Meadows and Nairne juniors play Central, Uraidla, Ironbank and Torrens Valley in Country, it would take some programming but surely could be done and would be better than forcing the whole club (like Mt Lofty) into a division that could decimate their junior program.

Separating the juniors from the seniors would do more harm than good

Fair enough to disagree but I don't really know how it would do more harm - the current junior competition is in need of a total overhaul, forcing Mt Lofty's juniors to join the Country division is a recipe for disaster as far as their junior program is concerned.
Clubs can still have juniors playing games prior to their respective senior teams, but not necessarily 13's, 15's etc, may be a mix of the clubs modified teams?
If juniors were not included in the relegation process the movement of clubs between Central and Country may not be as traumatic as is currently the case?

[cracka]

Its taken me a while but I went through this thread to see what was said when Torrens Valley came up in 2011 & there is actually a separate thread for this issue. See link http://www.safooty.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=28777.
Anyway pretty much the same arguments then from Lobethal & Birdwood (who were the clubs looking to be relegated back then) as what Mt Lofty are doing now & pretty much the same arguments from those opposed to changing central to an 11 team comp. Unfortunately as you don't have to identify which club you are involved with (which I think you should do if you are to have any credibility to anything you write on here) it was hard to determine who was from which club & arguing what.
Apparently back then the vote was 16 - 4 for central division to stay as a 10 team comp. Also interesting was that when Torrens Valley wanted to move from country to central they had to nominate by June 30 2010 for their move in 2011. Did Echunga nominate by June 30 this year or has this by-law been changed since 2010 so the nominations are done at the end of the season.

[cracka]

Sorry but my link doesn't work, maybe copy & paste. I should have got my 12 year old son to show me how to do it.

[cracka]

Would Mt Lofty (or any other club) be so reluctant to go to the Country division if they didn't have to drag their juniors with them? Could the solution be that the junior and senior competition be separated? ie allow clubs to nominate their junior teams wherever they best fit, whether that is in Central or Country.
As an example only - Birdwood, Meadows and Nairne juniors play Central, Uraidla, Ironbank and Torrens Valley in Country, it would take some programming but surely could be done and would be better than forcing the whole club (like Mt Lofty) into a division that could decimate their junior program.

Separating the juniors from the seniors would do more harm than good

Fair enough to disagree but I don't really know how it would do more harm - the current junior competition is in need of a total overhaul, forcing Mt Lofty's juniors to join the Country division is a recipe for disaster as far as their junior program is concerned.
Clubs can still have juniors playing games prior to their respective senior teams, but not necessarily 13's, 15's etc, may be a mix of the clubs modified teams?
If juniors were not included in the relegation process the movement of clubs between Central and Country may not be as traumatic as is currently the case?

Its because clubs want their juniors playing on the same ground on the same day that this is such an issue, as some country clubs don't have the full compliment of juniors so the junior programs has to be different to the A & B grade. That is why Echunga want to move to central div & why Lofty are fighting as hard as they can to stay in central.
Some clubs at a recent HFL meeting wanted 3 divisions in HFL where central & country clubs had to fill A, B, S/C & J/C & the 3rd division would be for clubs that couldn't field all sides. Unfortunately I think that would be the death of the clubs that couldn't field the 4 sides.

[FairDinkum]

Birdwood went down because Lobethal worked hard to get wins in the minor grades to ensure we wouldn't finish at the bottom of the team table, if it was the year before we would have been in the sh*t because Birdwood won the U 17 flag, the Devils should have been playing to win colts and A2games if they're A grade was not up to scratch. It's a pity it came to that but against the big teams, Hahndorf, mt barker, Blackwood you have to work it through the best you can for that year, otherwise it's relegation.

[Look Good In Leather]

Would Mt Lofty (or any other club) be so reluctant to go to the Country division if they didn't have to drag their juniors with them? Could the solution be that the junior and senior competition be separated? ie allow clubs to nominate their junior teams wherever they best fit, whether that is in Central or Country.
As an example only - Birdwood, Meadows and Nairne juniors play Central, Uraidla, Ironbank and Torrens Valley in Country, it would take some programming but surely could be done and would be better than forcing the whole club (like Mt Lofty) into a division that could decimate their junior program.

Separating the juniors from the seniors would do more harm than good

Fair enough to disagree but I don't really know how it would do more harm - the current junior competition is in need of a total overhaul, forcing Mt Lofty's juniors to join the Country division is a recipe for disaster as far as their junior program is concerned.
Clubs can still have juniors playing games prior to their respective senior teams, but not necessarily 13's, 15's etc, may be a mix of the clubs modified teams?
If juniors were not included in the relegation process the movement of clubs between Central and Country may not be as traumatic as is currently the case?

Separate the juniors from the seniors and you might as well give up. I have seen it happen before, the focus should be to strengthen the bottom division, find away to ensure that is competitive or else it will fall apart. For a long time, the HFL had Callington bringing that division down and, although they have now gone, the damage has been done. In turn, allowing Country Div teams to continuously not field a full set of teams means that you cannot relegate a club like Lofty without long term damage, the competition structure is just not in place to suit their club, it will destroy them. The Central Div clubs will be fine - there will be not issue there in the short term, but the lower division will gradually fall apart, as we saw in the SFL. If a second division is not a viable option, as for Lofty it appears at the moment, then in reality the clubs involved are also in trouble.

As it stands, the country division will potentially diminish to 6 or 7 teams over the next 2-3 years through mergers or just disappearing, because the competition structure (ie junior setup) does not support it, one of these could be Lofty if they manage the fall well. After that, the HFL could find itself in the same predicament that the SFL found itself in 2002, with only 4 clubs left in the second division and no longer a viable competition.

Lets face it, if you do not have a full set of colts sides, the points system will destroy you but it also diminishes a clubs viability. If the country division fails, then it will become the Central division clubs' problem.

Another issue is it has never been a Division 1/Division 2 structure. It is two separate competitions, a bit like Riverland/Indys. Had it been Div 1/2 with compulsory promotion/relegation this would be just part of life. Instead, you have a situation where Echunga have to apply to join the Central Division, and the bottom side may get relegated in a season but it happens rarely, hence the extreme drop. As it has been run as two distinctly different competitions, I can understand Mt Lofty's stance. They are a member of the Hills Football League Central Division, why should they get kicked out of the competition just because someone else wants to join, why should they then have to join a competition that does not cater for their club structure?

This is not the amateur league, where you have 6 divisions of A-Grade football and total disregard for junior football. It is a semi-professional country-style competition where there are only 2 divisions, and to send a club whose culture has been based around a division 1 style, fully functioning competition, into the bottom division, where juniors are an afterthought, is akin to kicking a club out of the league altogether, it is that severe.

It is a tough situation, but a situation that has arisen because promotion has been optional rather than mandatory. Leave the competition as it is, if Echunga wanted to join Central they should have done it in 2011.

[R. White]

I agree with a lot of you post, but that last line ruined the whole thing. not to mention contradicting a lot of your post. If Echunga had chosen to apply for central div in 2011 I am sure the same problem would have come up, just with a different club.
Mt Lofty are in a very tough position, go down a div and risk losing all their juniors or fight to stay up. I think what they are doing is fine. Whether it works or not is yet to be decided but you cant blame them for trying. I just hope that if their requested is denied by the other clubs they swallow their medicine. if they are as strong as they think they are it will be a one season issue, which should make juniors issue minimal. So they lose a few players, they will come back when they come back up, if not they obviously didn't want to be there anyway.

On a slightly different note can someone explain how the voting works, could it be that the 10 central teams vote for it and the 9 country teams vote against it, does that mean it gets passed or does it need to be an overwhelming majority??

[Afterthesiren]

So all that you say LGIL couldn't be raised at the start of 2013? No, because it's the 'it won't happen to us' factor. And Mt Lofty's culture might be better now but they are in this position after years and years of paying mercenaries and winning flags from spending huge amounts of money. This sent them into massive debt and the word was they were going to shut their doors at one stage. Rules and by laws are in place for a reason, we don't just change them on a whim when it doesn't suit 1 or 2 clubs. Yes, the make up of the HFL needs looking at but this needs to be done methodically and in good time so decision are made for the better of all clubs not just Mt Lofty.\
And the vote will be decided by the majority via secret ballot.