Clubs in strife

[Cohiba]

Is that why you "deserted" a sinking ship....or was it just for the money........

Pretty sure he left on the best of terms and explained to the club at the end of last season his plans for the future.. Was very up front and open.

Your right PG...mine was a "smart alec" response.....but suggesting the points systems is the catalyst for "Club's in Strife" is somewhat inane when pointing a finger as to reasons why Clubs fall away... whilst others stay "in the game". He was part of Club Culture that now appears to have had no vision for its long term future. Very unfortunate for those who are part of its traditions and history....but the points system is not the problem in this case IMO.

[morell]

Would be interesting see their total numbers and any chnages over time though, both before and after the points system.

If anyone from the SAAFL has that data I will crunch it!

Assuming you are talking about player numbers, Quantity <> Quality

Of course but were talking within the context of actual raw quantity of players here. We would take anyone that can kick and catch atm, so, for us, and I would assume the other clubs being discussed, Quantity = Quality.

[Phantom Gossiper]

Agreed the points system isnt the reason for Kilburns struggles, but need to view each club and case on its merit and no doubt the points system has had a negative impact on several clubs in some way.

As previously noted, suddenly fringe A graders are being targeted from other clubs and cash thrown at them because they are zero pointers.

[HH3]

How will the points system effect them in recruiting new players now? Will it hinder getting players to the club? Or will there be allowances to allow for more recruits?

[Bombers4EVA]

Get rid of the points system and paying players and all will be good.

[morell]

Get rid of the points system and paying players and all will be good.

Those two things are definitely factors, but they 2/10s of the overall picture.

Player apathy
Work/Sport Quandary
Competition from other sports
Time poor lifestyles
Geography
Demographics
Club density

etc

It's a complicated story.

[Browny25]

Would hardly say went to town on brahma and kilburn. What was said is you can't always be at the top....someone has to finish bottom and when it's your turn you accept it. Doesn't matter how strong the losses are. Rosie's went through it and no one complained, we went with what we had. Kilburn are now seeing what neglecting juniors do and putting everything into an a grade side only. You can't cry poor when things turn sour! Brahma lodge went with payney and he had a fair following of players....he bought most to the club... And had very good success for 3 or 4 years...did the club think they were all going to stay when he left?? Unfortunately for them they didn't....so now they should go through hard times, not ask to drop down grades. That's my opinion, others will think different and say no point getting flogged but they didn't say we should go up 2 grades cos we are too good. Goes both ways

Pretty sure Brahma will finish bottom and cop floggings each week, so whats your point?

[beeroclock]

I think it should just be 50 junior games, regardless of age group. Clubs who have U18s will get kids that have played more than 100 games for another junior club but want to play U18s, they play 2 seasons of U18s and then they are worth 0 points to a club because they have U18s.

Pretty sure U/18s is classified as senior footy not juniors.

[Yank Man]

Get rid of the points system and paying players and all will be good.

Those two things are definitely factors, but they 2/10s of the overall picture.

Player apathy
Work/Sport Quandary
Competition from other sports
Time poor lifestyles
Geography
Demographics
Club density

etc

It's a complicated story.

A-get used the the points system, the majority are in favour and it's here to stay. Yes I believe there should be more flexibility with it, maybe that will come in time.
B-get used to player payments it's here for good, times changed years ago. Smart clubs work a way to compete without throwing big $$$$ around. Be it right or wrong it ain't changing.

[Mr Beefy]

I think it should just be 50 junior games, regardless of age group. Clubs who have U18s will get kids that have played more than 100 games for another junior club but want to play U18s, they play 2 seasons of U18s and then they are worth 0 points to a club because they have U18s.

Pretty sure U/18s is classified as senior footy not juniors.

Not in the context of the APPS.

[Cohiba]

How will the points system effect them in recruiting new players now? Will it hinder getting players to the club? Or will there be allowances to allow for more recruits?

Me thinks they could "lock and load" given their current plight.......again its not the points system.....recruiting is more about selling the club and its environs.....other than having no options but to open up the wallet.......And if that is the only option....buyer beware.....

[morell]

Get rid of the points system and paying players and all will be good.

Those two things are definitely factors, but they 2/10s of the overall picture.

Player apathy
Work/Sport Quandary
Competition from other sports
Time poor lifestyles
Geography
Demographics
Club density

etc

It's a complicated story.

A-get used the the points system, the majority are in favour and it's here to stay. Yes I believe there should be more flexibility with it, maybe that will come in time.
B-get used to player payments it's here for good, times changed years ago. Smart clubs work a way to compete without throwing big $$$$ around. Be it right or wrong it ain't changing.

I've racked my feeble mind on how to get rid of player payments (for lower divisions in particular) as I think it's having a massive derogatory impact on our sport and league. The only solutions I've ever thought of either require a massive shift in the mindset of the league, sport and its players, or a massive influx of resources to monitor and police it...or support from the state and feds:

If player x is getting income from playing sport, that should be taxed, unless I am mistaken.

Therefore, technically, players that receive said income could be audited and fined by the ATO.

If this happened enough times eventually individuals and clubs would have to begin declaring their payments.

If that then happened for long enough, then there would be records available for, say, an office of Recreation and Sport to begin putting a stamp on it, and possibly, providing some of those records to approved governing bodies, such as the SAAFL.

From there, they could put in policies and regulation to control it.

Pipe dream and perhaps draconian.

[jo172]

There's a reasonable argument that player payments are not income but rather a hobby similar to umpires payments: http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?d ... /ATO/00001

[Look Good In Leather]

How will the points system effect them in recruiting new players now? Will it hinder getting players to the club? Or will there be allowances to allow for more recruits?

A-graders from Div1-3 are 3 points each
B-grades from Div1-3 are 2 points each as are A-Graders from Div4 down

Unless they recruit spuds, they can bring in minimal players.

Effectively the points system only lets you tinker around the edges

[Mr Beefy]

Incorrect 2 and 0 and 2

[jo172]

How will the points system effect them in recruiting new players now? Will it hinder getting players to the club? Or will there be allowances to allow for more recruits?

A-graders from Div1-3 are 3 points each
B-grades from Div1-3 are 2 points each as are A-Graders from Div4 down

Unless they recruit spuds, they can bring in minimal players.

Effectively the points system only lets you tinker around the edges

Wrong.

B Grade players are worth nothing (apart from SANFL reserves, VFL reserves etc)

[Look Good In Leather]

Will occur over the next few seasons if the points system remains in place.

Meanwhile, I don't notice any of the Old Scholars bloc being discussed when we are talking about these "clubs in strife"

I would wager it doesn't.

The number of College sides in the top 4 divisions may increase by 1, the number of College sides in the top 2 divisions may also increase by 1. Apart from that Schools like Pultney, CBCOC, Trinity, Blackfriars, Flinders don't pose a serious threat to any of the strong clubs.

And your second point is such a logical fallacy it makes my head hurt.

In 2013 Pulteney had 534 boys enrolled
CBC 1135
Trinity 1842
Blackfriars 1005
Mercedes 591

Whilst it is not instant, that is going to make a huge difference to the average district club that may have 100-200 players in their junior ranks in a season.

In 5-10 years time, these will be power clubs unless they don't capitalise on it. Likewise clubs like Henley, TTG, Modbury, PNU and Golden Grove should be very strong.

[Look Good In Leather]

How will the points system effect them in recruiting new players now? Will it hinder getting players to the club? Or will there be allowances to allow for more recruits?

A-graders from Div1-3 are 3 points each
B-grades from Div1-3 are 2 points each as are A-Graders from Div4 down

Unless they recruit spuds, they can bring in minimal players.

Effectively the points system only lets you tinker around the edges

Wrong.

B Grade players are worth nothing (apart from SANFL reserves, VFL reserves etc)

Not according to the CFL regulations.

[morell]

There's a reasonable argument that player payments are not income but rather a hobby similar to umpires payments: http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?d ... /ATO/00001

Pwoar, good link! I was searching for something like that.

From my viewpoint the argument is slightly different due to the fact they're umpires and are paid to essentially cover "time and materials" to be able to facilitate a broader event.

Little bit different to mercenary X going to D6 club Y and getting $400/game to do so.

Just as a quick calc, and my sums might be waaay off. Take 65 clubs. Take away the collegiates and there are 50 clubs left. I've heard ranges for footy club player payment budgets from $10,000 to $100,000. I guess we will never know, but lets pluck $25,000 as a random average.

50 clubs by $25,000 is a staggering 1.25 million dollars of missed taxable, IMO, income.

Say there are 15 players at each of the clubs that get paid. That makes 50 * 15 = 750 people rorting the system and taking advantage of every day hard working tax payers ( ) . Say we take a taxable income rate of 25%, that makes its (1.25M / 750 * 0.25) * 750 = $312,500 missed each year.

Over 10 years thats millions to pay for hospital beds, pensioner medicine, war memorials and toys for the kiddies! And this is just for the SAAFL, imagine the things we could build if we started taxing all the leagues!!

Paying players robs YOU of critical services and infrastructure. Vote #1 - morell in this years election.

[jo172]

How will the points system effect them in recruiting new players now? Will it hinder getting players to the club? Or will there be allowances to allow for more recruits?

A-graders from Div1-3 are 3 points each
B-grades from Div1-3 are 2 points each as are A-Graders from Div4 down

Unless they recruit spuds, they can bring in minimal players.

Effectively the points system only lets you tinker around the edges

Wrong.

B Grade players are worth nothing (apart from SANFL reserves, VFL reserves etc)

Not according to the CFL regulations.

http://www.saafl.asn.au/uploads/Pages/p ... _copy1.pdf