The never ending No AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby mal » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:45 pm

This is a plea to the Norwood Football club
Please dont fIeld a team in the AFL , until we get past 36 SANFL Premierships
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby Dog Day Afternoon » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:02 pm

I don't think the problem is the listed AFL players. I think it is the quality of the top up players. Port only had 2 top up players on Sunday but they would have walked into any other SANFL side.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby Rising Power » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:09 pm

tipper wrote:
Dogwatcher wrote:Any SANFL fan who agrees with pushing the problem to the amateur league is being a tad hypocritical.


i know, and i dont necessarily agree with it, i just used my hypocritical post to point out the hypocrisy of a power fan not wanting to put the problem in the saafl's lap, but also be perfectly happy to lump it all on the sanfl (of course, that the magpies have a stronger sanfl side with all their spare players at that level would have nothing to do with that argument though)

Yeah like this whole situation was my decision. I'd be happy for the reserves to play elsewhere but I think my influence on the matter would be minute.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby SimonH » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:11 pm

Rising Power wrote:
Red Rocket wrote:Had lunch with a board member of an SANFL club today and he mentioned that despite yesterdays result there are still changes afoot.
At the moment 4 clubs are on board and trying to gather more support but he mentioned that it probably wouldnt get pushed until next year.
A lot depends on the two sides forming an alliance with an amateur side but the proposal would limit the ammount of AFL listed players per game to 14, the others would then go to the ammateur side to play. Small tweak to finals eligibity aswell with 6 games required to qualify unless both sides are still in (like the weekend) As he said too late to get it up this year but will be pushing hard next year for it to be introduced in 2016. He didnt say which 4 clubs were currently onboard but obviously it would be good if all clubs jumped on.
There was also talk of the AFL sides being excluded from finals but a couple of clubs have knocked that on the head already

So push the problem onto the SAAFL? If 19 full time professional players are available like in the GF, a single SAAFL club would take on the additional 5. That would make a hell of a difference to the results of games at that level. Would be interesting to see what changes are actually made.
Gee, never thought I'd agree with Rising Power on this sort of topic. This sounds like a bunch of effort to take it nowhere. Mandatory ammos (and why would it be ammos? Has Port already decided that its 'Academy side' is going to flee the SANFL reserves?) is a retrograde change as things sit now. Port Adelaide would have been as strong, or stronger, in the finals series with a 14-listed-player restriction. Take out Butcher and your 4 other 'worst' AFL-listed players and add in Bruggemann, Biemans, Robbie Young, Slattery, Johansen. The quality of the side isn't going to go down. The effort at that end needs to go into stopping an AFL club using its AFL-club resources to recruit top-up players—which has partially been fixed for the future, but the rule changes announced last month mean that Port has lots of motivation to hang on to its existing SANFL-listers, none of whom it's required to get rid of. And lots of motivation to keep 'em means lots of motivation to make it worth their while to stay. The SANFL needs to either enforce the $400 per game rule strictly, or change it to something that will be strictly enforced (for an example at the crazy opposite end of the spectrum, see the WAFL figures below!). 'Cos the situation with Summerton cf Slattery this year has been a joke.

SANFL clubs should focus most of their energies on talking to their contacts in AFL House to start making plans to get an AFL reserves competition up and going. Even leaving aside the SANFL, the current arrangements are a dog's breakfast which have made a mess of:
• the VFL—a top-level player, uninjured, waiting out the final quarter on the bench while his team gets overrun because he's hoping to play a game in another competition next week, makes a mockery of a grand final and is a spit in the face of the 23k who showed up to watch,
• the NEAFL—150 point margins are normal, AFL reserves sides have different rules from week to week depending on who their opponent is, and as far as I know any AFL-listed reserves players over any applicable cap for that opponent, don't play at all that weekend, and
• the WAFL—where the 'aligned' clubs get given 20+ players, paid a grand total of millions a year, for nothing, and then on top of that get a $182k salary cap as opposed to $280k for the stand-alone clubs who have to pay all of their own players!

For god's sake get these AFL clubs, all of which have the same purpose in running reserves sides, together in the one comp. Make arrangements for the kids from U/18 comps (who are 90% of what AFL club recruiters are interested in anyway) to play as top-ups, everyone's happy, and we can get on with our lives.

For the AFL to say, 'we can't afford it' would be the greatest joke of all time. I don't think it's the hulking financial behemoth of the NEAFL as a stand-alone entity that pays for teams to fly around between Canberra, Sydney, SE Qld, Darwin and occasionally Alice every week, all footy season, to play before family-and-friends crowds (apologies to NT Thunder who do sometimes crack 1000 at their home games).

I agree that the minimum number of games should be increased so you can't play the SANFL grannie just 'cos the AFL side dropped you at the tail end of the season after you'd played AFL all year; but that's minor.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby Booney » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:17 pm

Sure got all the answers....
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby bennymacca » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:38 pm

Booney wrote:Sure got all the answers....


It does seem pretty good though. I don't see any people saying that an afl reserves comp isn't the best outcome.

Each of the afl teams having an u18 team would be controversial though
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby SimonH » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:49 pm

bennymacca wrote:
Booney wrote:Sure got all the answers....


It does seem pretty good though. I don't see any people saying that an afl reserves comp isn't the best outcome.

Each of the afl teams having an u18 team would be controversial though
Not a team. The AFL would never let that happen. The Victorian teams would have an alignment with a TAC Cup team; Freo/WCE and Crows/Pahhhhr would divide up the 'Colts' and U/18 sides between them (in the case of SA, choose 4 teams each); and Bris/GC and Syd/GWS already have arrangements dividing up the state they're in for the purpose of their 'academies', so nothing would need to change for them. Then all teams just pick those they wanna pick from their feeder clubs, to make up the numbers in their ressies side. Swans ressies already operate this way; their 'top-ups' are almost universally under 18 yoa.

The TAC/Colts/U/18 clubs would continue to be separately administered as they are now, in order to avoid breaking the rule that U/18s can't be signed on to, or training directly for, an AFL club. (That rule doesn't apply in NSW and Qld.)
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby bennymacca » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:54 pm

I wouldn't have a problem with that (there would still be people on here that wouldn't like an U18 going to play in this comp instead of the afl reserves though, especially ones that are playing league footy ala aish
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby bennymacca » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:55 pm

You are right though, for the afl to say that they don't have the money for flights is a bit of a cop out.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby FlyingHigh » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:04 pm

I'd rather see those coming out of u/18's and not drafted as the top-up players. Give a second chance to players such as Rowntree, Goldsworthy to see if they can impress. AFL lists of 40, top-up players for two years, so 6 each year would give lists of 52, get rid of rookie-list, but these top-up players could be moved onto main list like the current rookie set-up.
Each club would have a zone, and to look at the broader picture, each club could recruit two players out of it's zone before the draft (Tassie and Darwin would be allocated to NM, Haw & Melb to alleviate pressures in country Vic). Draft would then take place. This way it's likely that the 25 best players will be off the table before the draft starts, which would eliminate the tanking debate as we all know that after 25 can be a bit of a lottery.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby Aerie » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:51 pm

SimonH has it spot on and I agree with FlyingHigh re top up players being the first two years out of U18's instead of actual U18's.

If only this could happen sooner rather than later.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby valleys07 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:54 pm

Good post Simon.

How the logistics would work- well I have no idea. An independent AFL reserves competition simply must be a way of the future- leaving all state leagues to continue to provide a passionate, equal competition, whilst offering players pathways to the AFL as mature age rookies / draftees.

An idea of mine:

Perhaps use the reserves competition as an academy pathway / league SANFL depth, whilst maintaining the U18's and U16's for development pathways. For the reserves competition, the State U18 side can be playing in this comp (the squad is selected before the season starts??), and lets be honest, a majority end up playing ressies / league anyway throughout the season, and have the SANFL's best young talent, spread through all 9 sides, with both the Power and the Crows given access to potential draftees as top ups for their reserves in the event of injury, but making it an even spread throughout 9 clubs (impose a rule like capping number of games for Power/Crows reserves per individual per year, or capping the number of players picked per club (ie. 10 top up players picked per week- 1 from each club)- thus giving all young kids a chance to press their claim to be drafted). This would alleviate the AFL influence in the league competition- giving all our supporters great passion for the league, knowing their team is competing in an even playing field- it would give the Crows and Port a great look at SA's best talent, therefore increasing the likelihood of SA lads being drafted to SA AFL clubs, and the reserves comp will still be strong with U18 guns, and players vying for league selection playing off against each other.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby mighty_tiger_79 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:30 am

I agree that we all want a AFL Reserves comp.

I find it highly amusing that the so-called biggest comp in Australia doesnt have a reserves comp yet, other, smaller sports do.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby holden78 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:31 am

tipper wrote:
Dogwatcher wrote:Any SANFL fan who agrees with pushing the problem to the amateur league is being a tad hypocritical.


i know, and i dont necessarily agree with it, i just used my hypocritical post to point out the hypocrisy of a power fan not wanting to put the problem in the saafl's lap, but also be perfectly happy to lump it all on the sanfl (of course, that the magpies have a stronger sanfl side with all their spare players at that level would have nothing to do with that argument though)


Just a thought........ How in the f--- is anything now significantly better than a few years ago?

And Sando was the loudest voice for change!

The Candys aren't any different and Stevie Wonder can see why Port Flower's ressies and not South made a GF

We've gone from an evenly compromised comp where all 9 sides had the same handicap and the best side always wins the GF, despite salary cap rorting by the two power clubs of the last fifteen years.

What serious comp anywhere in the world has pro's against ammo's? That GF crowd was half jacked up on the back of the AFL Power's glory run.

The true believers of the SANFL have been handed a freshly made turd sandwich, told how wonderful and popular it is, and expected to forget tradition and happily chow down on it because the AFL big mouths of Adelaide, led by the banished Sando, convinced the SANFL they knew best!

Well give us Norwood Vs South GF all year every year and keep your over priced AFL recipe Turd Sandwich, :butthead:
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby dedja » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:12 am

The SANFL is not dead, 38K to the GF is healthy and the GF was a good spectacle.

The issue for me is that the 10 teams are not playing on equal terms. Port and the Crows operate under different conditions (and this year to each other) to the 8 SANFL clubs.

Unfortunately, the AFL teams requirements for a reserves side and maximising the selection of AFL listed players, and the ideals of the SANFL to have an equal and fair competition are impossible to achieve together.

Add in the presumption of the SANFL and the clubs that voted for the inclusion of the AFL that the participation of the AFL clubs in the SANFL is required to maintain sponsorship, media and spectator exposure. This is the killer for me. Without this presumption, then we could have just included the AFL reserves sides in the SANFL reserves and I wouldn't care less whether the competition was compromised or was won each year by an AFL club.

Unfortunately, now that the AFL clubs are in the SANFl, they're not going away in a hurry.

Perversely, one could somewhat justifiably mount an argument that the inclusion of the AFL sides this year has either been a resounding success or somewhat a failure, depending on what lens you are looking through.

My 2c is that the SANFL and the 8 SANFL clubs each should state what they consider the consider to be the KPIs and success factors for the competition and their individual clubs, because at the moment most of us aren't sure what they are. Due to this, we all seem to be guessing what defines success, and this breeds conspiracy theories, personal prejudices, not wanted to concede that the world has changed, etc.

Also, whilst I don't like what has happened to the SANFL in 2014, I don't think taking it out on the supporters of the AFL teams is good for anyone. In particular, the Port Magpies supporters who must feel somewhat wedged between their tradition and the new world (note that collective terms such as wharfie, scum, etc are acceptable if used in a generic sense). Conversely, it does no good if the same supporters gloat about everyone else catching up when they themselves didn't do any hard yards to obtain their unfair advantage, or even acknowledging that they have an unfair advantage, which isn't diluted if they don't happen to win the flag.

You can't really blame the administration of the AFL teams either. Their concern is about the welfare of their clubs, which is exactly what the SANFL clubs should be doing.

I also believe you can't blame the SANFL clubs themselves. By this I don't mean the Presidents who voted on the AFL proposal, but the CEOs, office administrators, volunteers and players. This is why I increased my involvement and financial contribution to my club, because the need for assistance is currently at its greatest.

I know there are a few that have decided to decrease or withdraw their involvement, support and financial contribution to their club and that is their right to do so, but t pains me to see this occurring.

The responsibility for the inclusion of the the AFL teams in the SANFL falls squarely on the SANFL commission and SANFL Directors. They had the power to not only decide whether it happened at all, but the terms and conditions on any acceptance. It is the duty of all to discuss and try to influence our Presidents to ensure that we not only are appropriately informed, but are seen to be appropriately informed. I know there are those that will say that they tried this before to no avail, but ultimately the club's members have control if the constitutional tools are used correctly and effectively. If you strongly disagree with the decisions of your President (and therefore your Board), then vote them out.

Regardless of which side of the argument one may sit, there can be not doubt that everyone isn't a winner and there are opportunities to improve the situation.

What is now required is a clear strategy to manage the SANFL competition so that the competition thrives within an even and competitive environment.

This is where I struggle the most because for the moment, I can't see the forest for the trees for that strategy.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby Aerie » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:08 pm

dedja wrote:This is where I struggle the most because for the moment, I can't see the forest for the trees for that strategy.


Good post dedja.

I think it would require a complete attitude adjustment from the top level in order for this to occur instead of the divide and conquer that we see now.

The AFL would need to realise quickly that there is merit in State League competitions in their own right and work hard at providing the opportunity to allow these competitions to grow and prosper - especially the SANFL and WAFL. The AFL might realise they could be financially better off in doing so instead of going down the current path of destroying these competitions, which will then need to be funded by the AFL anyway because membership and sponsorship money will dry up.

Ways to help State Leagues grow and prosper might include an AFL Reserves/Development competition with top up players being under age so as not to weaken the standard of State Leagues. Reducing the amount of AFL teams. Cooperation in scheduling of fixtures. Promotion.

I use to see the SANFL as an alternative to the AFL. Now I see it as a poor man's AFL. The SANFL decided it couldn't compete and has been gobbled up.

No doubt the "SANFL" will still be around for a long time to come, but in what form?
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby FlyingHigh » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:40 pm

Agree Aerie, it's this seeming lack of respect from the top that is starting to annoy me. They must feel they need to concentrate so much effort at the top so "AFL" is not overrun by other competing sports.
Last edited by FlyingHigh on Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby FlyingHigh » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:50 pm

dedja wrote:a generic sense). Conversely, it does no good if the same supporters gloat about everyone else catching up The SANFL is not dead, 38K to the GF is healthy and the GF was a good spectacle.

The issue for me is that the 10 teams are not playing on equal terms. Port and the Crows operate under different conditions (and this year to each other) to the 8 SANFL clubs.

Unfortunately, the AFL teams requirements for a reserves side and maximising the selection of AFL listed players, and the ideals of the SANFL to have an equal and fair competition are impossible to achieve together.

Add in the presumption of the SANFL and the clubs that voted for the inclusion of the AFL that the participation of the AFL clubs in the SANFL is required to maintain sponsorship, media and spectator exposure. This is the killer for me. Without this presumption, then we could have just included the AFL reserves sides in the SANFL reserves and I wouldn't care less whether the competition was compromised or was won each year by an AFL club.

Unfortunately, now that the AFL clubs are in the SANFl, they're not going away in a hurry.

Perversely, one could somewhat justifiably mount an argument that the inclusion of the AFL sides this year has either been a resounding success or somewhat a failure, depending on what lens you are looking through.

My 2c is that the SANFL and the 8 SANFL clubs each should state what they consider the consider to be the KPIs and success factors for the competition and their individual clubs, because at the moment most of us aren't sure what they are. Due to this, we all seem to be guessing what defines success, and this breeds conspiracy theories, personal prejudices, not wanted to concede that the world has changed, etc.

Also, whilst I don't like what has happened to the SANFL in 2014, I don't think taking it out on the supporters of the AFL teams is good for anyone. In particular, the Port Magpies supporters who must feel somewhat wedged between their tradition and the new world (note that collective terms such as wharfie, scum, etc are acceptable if used in when they themselves didn't do any hard yards to obtain their unfair advantage, or even acknowledging that they have an unfair advantage, which isn't diluted if they don't happen to win the flag.

You can't really blame the administration of the AFL teams either. Their concern is about the welfare of their clubs, which is exactly what the SANFL clubs should be doing.

Regardless of which side of the argument one may sit, there can be not doubt that everyone isn't a winner and there are opportunities to improve I also believe you can't blame the SANFL clubs themselves. By this I don't mean the Presidents who voted on the AFL proposal, but the CEOs, office administrators, volunteers and players. This is why I increased my involvement and financial contribution to my club, because the need for assistance is currently at its greatest.

I know there are a few that have decided to decrease or withdraw their involvement, support and financial contribution to their club and that is their right to do so, but t pains me to see this occurring.

The responsibility for the inclusion of the the AFL teams in the SANFL falls squarely on the SANFL commission and SANFL Directors. They had the power to not only decide whether it happened at all, but the terms and conditions on any acceptance. It is the duty of all to discuss and try to influence our Presidents to ensure that we not only are appropriately informed, but are seen to be appropriately informed. I know there are those that will say that they tried this before to no avail, but ultimately the club's members have control if the constitutional tools are used correctly and effectively. If you strongly disagree with the decisions of your President (and therefore your Board), then vote them out.

the situation.

What is now required is a clear strategy to manage the SANFL competition so that the competition thrives within an even and competitive environment.

This is where I struggle the most because for the moment, I can't see the forest for the trees for that strategy.


Great post dedja.
The hardest thing I found was being torn between feeling betrayed by my "representative" and that the players were still out there fighting their guts out. Hence I didn't renew my membership, but also felt that they needed "me" (supporters) more than ever.
Similar sentiments for the overall comp and other teams' players as well, and hence didn't attend any finals, when normally I would have been there with bells on.
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby Dogwatcher » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:51 pm

What happened to your bells?
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Re: The 2014 season no AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

Postby FlyingHigh » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:53 pm

Not what I would have liked to have.....
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