HFL Division 1 (Central)

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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Sniper » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:02 pm

Whos ya daddy wrote:
Look Good In Leather wrote:
Elmer J Thudpucker wrote:
Legs Man wrote:Anyone heard whether the league has called a meeting - or are they sitting on their hands again hoping it will go away?

I am truly hoping that they are being proactive this time.

Surely the debacle of last year wont happen again?


The HFL have been proactively communicating with all clubs in relation to this issue, but to be fair, they don't need to call a meeting until the December AGM, where they will follow the promotion/relegation by-laws as voted by the clubs in 2013.

If a club wants to propose a by-law change for season 2015 then they can call a Special General Meeting and put it to the vote of all HFL clubs. Clearly Echunga are considering doing this as they have been contacting all clubs to see whether there's support to change the by-law that dictates that Central Division can have no more than 10 teams. If there's support for an 11 team comp, then they'll be safe. But either way, the ball is in Echunga's court.


Why do Echunga need to do anything, it is Bridgewater's problem


Although I totally agree with you LGIL in the way the by laws are written that the finals games are included in the points system, unfortunately for Echunga the interpretation of the by laws deems that the season ends at Rd 18. So unless Echunga are willing to take it to court (where they would probably win as the by laws are poorly written in a legal sense, but how much will that cost them in legal fees) I think they are shit outta luck and are the team in the gun to go down.
If Echunga does take this to court to challenge the by laws I think shit might hit the fan for the HFL as it could bring into question many of the other rules stated in the by laws.

Unless the HFL go to legal aid, you would have to assume there would be legal fees for the HFL too. If that's the case, would the bill be split 19 ways for all clubs to pay ?
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby One Club Player » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:07 pm

How anybody on here can seriously critisise Echunga for "buying" a flag is beyond me. Last how many premierships have been won by Barker, Uri's and Mt Lofty..........no money going around in any of those sides :roll:

Regardless of your position on relegation you cannot deny that what Echunga achieved this year was absolutely incredible and may never be achieved again. Hat's off to them. Don't disrespect it with cheap shots about money from your little glasshouse!
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Justquietly » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:16 pm

A 'forum' at its best. This is entertaining.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby no1rangler » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:22 pm

Huge effort for Echunga to win the flag no doubt and yes you simply have to pay good $$ to attract decent players to assist the local and current players.

Anyone have any idea at all when then this relegation process may be sorted???
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Elmer J Thudpucker » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:49 pm

Whos ya daddy wrote:Although I totally agree with you LGIL in the way the by laws are written that the finals games are included in the points system, unfortunately for Echunga the interpretation of the by laws deems that the season ends at Rd 18. So unless Echunga are willing to take it to court (where they would probably win as the by laws are poorly written in a legal sense, but how much will that cost them in legal fees) I think they are shit outta luck and are the team in the gun to go down.
If Echunga does take this to court to challenge the by laws I think shit might hit the fan for the HFL as it could bring into question many of the other rules stated in the by laws.


When interpreting a by-law that is open to interpretation, two major things will be considered.

The first test is what everyone’s understanding/interpretation of the by-law was at the start of the season. In the case of by-law 18.2.3, I think you’ll find that all 20 HFL club Presidents will confirm that they understood that the relegation points system was to the end of the minor round. In fact, Echunga themselves can’t argue against this based on their own actions (playing expensive recruits in B grade in an attempt to win extra points) and in words (Kym Pocock in the Sunday Mail article refers to the by-law being for the minor round only).

The second test is how the by-law has been interpreted in the past. That is, is there a precedent as to how the by-law has been mplemented previously? Again, the HFL will confirm that in calculating the relegation points table in previous years, it has been done using minor round games only, even when clubs had teams competing in finals.

Go ahead, spend big on lawyers to challenge it, but it will be a costly exercise that will ultimately amount to nothing.

As I said in a previous post, Echunga’s only option is to convince 11 of the 20 clubs to vote for a by-law change for season 2015 allowing an 11 team central division.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Look Good In Leather » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:46 pm

Whos ya daddy wrote:
Look Good In Leather wrote:
Elmer J Thudpucker wrote:
Legs Man wrote:Anyone heard whether the league has called a meeting - or are they sitting on their hands again hoping it will go away?

I am truly hoping that they are being proactive this time.

Surely the debacle of last year wont happen again?


The HFL have been proactively communicating with all clubs in relation to this issue, but to be fair, they don't need to call a meeting until the December AGM, where they will follow the promotion/relegation by-laws as voted by the clubs in 2013.

If a club wants to propose a by-law change for season 2015 then they can call a Special General Meeting and put it to the vote of all HFL clubs. Clearly Echunga are considering doing this as they have been contacting all clubs to see whether there's support to change the by-law that dictates that Central Division can have no more than 10 teams. If there's support for an 11 team comp, then they'll be safe. But either way, the ball is in Echunga's court.


Why do Echunga need to do anything, it is Bridgewater's problem


Although I totally agree with you LGIL in the way the by laws are written that the finals games are included in the points system, unfortunately for Echunga the interpretation of the by laws deems that the season ends at Rd 18. So unless Echunga are willing to take it to court (where they would probably win as the by laws are poorly written in a legal sense, but how much will that cost them in legal fees) I think they are shit outta luck and are the team in the gun to go down.
If Echunga does take this to court to challenge the by laws I think shit might hit the fan for the HFL as it could bring into question many of the other rules stated in the by laws.


Echunga should challenge it legally, it would not end up in court as the HFL would back down straight away - they do not have a defence.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Elmer J Thudpucker » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:06 pm

Look Good In Leather wrote:Echunga should challenge it legally, it would not end up in court as the HFL would back down straight away - they do not have a defence.


Wow, what great advice....I'm sure they'll consider your learned opinion and do just that (I'm trying real hard not to laugh as I type this).
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Look Good In Leather » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:30 pm

Elmer J Thudpucker wrote:
Look Good In Leather wrote:Echunga should challenge it legally, it would not end up in court as the HFL would back down straight away - they do not have a defence.


Wow, what great advice....I'm sure they'll consider your learned opinion and do just that (I'm trying real hard not to laugh as I type this).

So in your opinion they should be kicked out the league even though they have rightfully earned their spot and even won the premiership along the way? They should take the hit and give up their spot because whilst the rule does not say they have to, somewhere someone once intended that to be the outcome?

:?
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Elmer J Thudpucker » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:56 pm

Look Good In Leather wrote:
Elmer J Thudpucker wrote:
Look Good In Leather wrote:Echunga should challenge it legally, it would not end up in court as the HFL would back down straight away - they do not have a defence.


Wow, what great advice....I'm sure they'll consider your learned opinion and do just that (I'm trying real hard not to laugh as I type this).

So in your opinion they should be kicked out the league even though they have rightfully earned their spot and even won the premiership along the way? They should take the hit and give up their spot because whilst the rule does not say they have to, somewhere someone once intended that to be the outcome?
,

I think that's where we disagree. The rules that all clubs voted for says they have to go down. These are the same rules that saw them come up. These rules have been interpreted consistently for years and Echunga themselves clearly understood them (again, playing a graders in b grade was evidence of this).

To be fair LGIL, you're the only one who seems to be pushing the point in relation to the interpretation of the by-laws.

Now, as to your first question should they be made to depart central Division, putting the by-laws aside, my answer is a clear no. There's another club in Central Division that is even more imbalanced than Echunga, and that is Torrens Valley.

They spend more on their A Grade team than Echunga, they have been allowed to remain in Central Division by playing numerous juniors with permits in underage teams, and they do not have one modified team at all (that's right, not one). Now there's a club that should be in Country.

But again, it may come down to rules vs common sense.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby R. White » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:58 pm

At some stage somewhere along the line common sense needs to come into action. The hills central division has long been trying to challange the saafl div 1 as the best comp outside the sanfl. Now this is a completely different argument, the fact of the matter is if Echunga go down it proves the league and competition level inferior. If Echunga go down it will ruin the comp as I would assume (based on media coverage already) that they will not go quietly. So I can't imagine a club vying for a players service saying "come play in the hills, it's a great standard" when it is very likely that said played would have heard about the shenanigans anyway.
I agree with the fact that tv should be in the firing line and not Echunga or bridgewater. I mean let's face it, had they not spent 1500 a game for their import they would have been in the firing line anyway. That is not building a club for success, it was a get out of jail (not so) free card. If they were keen on building long lasting success they could have bought three 500 players and positioned themselves for the future.
As for Echunga buying the premiership, it looks like they paid some blokes to play. But don't all clubs. No one knows for sure but I would think that a lot of the budgets are the same, and if one team has more to spend its because they work harder for it. Never the less uraidla have done it best, investing in good players and good blokes that stay. Lofty did it well for a while but the wheels fell of because of unforeseen circumstances and even my barker have done it well. Looks to me that Echunga have followed in these clubs footsteps. So before getting on a forum and hiding behind an alias, how bout you get off your ass and do something to help your club spend their money on people that not only can play the game but are good blokes and will stick it out! Done get the $hits in because some clubs do things better than others.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Legs Man » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:39 pm

I know that I am considered by some contributors as a HFL basher - BUT - doesn't the current situation occurring AGAIN tell you something?

Salient points for consideration:

Isn't the HFL the governing body of our league and thus entrusted to sort this bloody debacle out?

All we seem to hear is rules are rules - but when the rules are incorrect or biased shouldn't the HFL be instituting change via consultation with the clubs?

Isn't the best interests of the league as a whole at stake here regardless of player payments and personal agendas?

To be the best league outside of SANFL shouldn't the HFL ensure the best facilities are used for finals to promote our game - unlike shifting a final to Mt Barker - an inferior facility to Echunga - where the final was allocated originally?

Allowing deciding and influential matches to be played at Mt Torrens for TV when the ground wasn't fit for pigs to wallow in?

We are currently a total laughing stock in all football circles - and I mean ALL football circles due to the way our constitution is written and governed.

If this situation occurred within the SANFL, AFL or SAAFL heads would roll and a vote of no confidence would be taken !!!
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby cracka » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:12 am

The HFL board only administer the league, the clubs actually govern it.

Again the HFL has no power to change the rules, its the clubs that do that.

We are not a laughing stock, if anyone or any club feels this then F*** off to another league. The constitution would be similar to other leagues, its the by-laws (which the clubs vote in) that are different & are again governed by the CLUBS. Get that through your heads, the CLUBS govern the league & can change the by-laws. The HFL has no vote on this.

There was meant to be a big board spill & vote of no confidence at last year but no one had the balls to VOLUNTEER their time & cop the crap for the CLUBS getting it wrong.

Legsman, you better put your hand up at the AGM & volunteer to get on the board as they AGAIN will be looking for helpers, then you may have your eyes opened as to how things are actually done in the HFL.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby the wonder elephant » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:20 am

One Club Player wrote:How anybody on here can seriously critisise Echunga for "buying" a flag is beyond me. Last how many premierships have been won by Barker, Uri's and Mt Lofty..........no money going around in any of those sides :roll:

Regardless of your position on relegation you cannot deny that what Echunga achieved this year was absolutely incredible and may never be achieved again. Hat's off to them. Don't disrespect it with cheap shots about money from your little glasshouse!

Have to agree mate cant do any better than back to back in different divisions if they were to go down it would be a disgrace !

Ps jars going around again ?
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby woodublieve12 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:35 am

cracka wrote:The HFL board only administer the league, the clubs actually govern it.

Again the HFL has no power to change the rules, its the clubs that do that.

We are not a laughing stock, if anyone or any club feels this then F*** off to another league. The constitution would be similar to other leagues, its the by-laws (which the clubs vote in) that are different & are again governed by the CLUBS. Get that through your heads, the CLUBS govern the league & can change the by-laws. The HFL has no vote on this.

There was meant to be a big board spill & vote of no confidence at last year but no one had the balls to VOLUNTEER their time & cop the crap for the CLUBS getting it wrong.

Legsman, you better put your hand up at the AGM & volunteer to get on the board as they AGAIN will be looking for helpers, then you may have your eyes opened as to how things are actually done in the HFL.


:shock: :lol:
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby cracka » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:05 am

woodublieve12 wrote:
cracka wrote:The HFL board only administer the league, the clubs actually govern it.

Again the HFL has no power to change the rules, its the clubs that do that.

We are not a laughing stock, if anyone or any club feels this then F*** off to another league. The constitution would be similar to other leagues, its the by-laws (which the clubs vote in) that are different & are again governed by the CLUBS. Get that through your heads, the CLUBS govern the league & can change the by-laws. The HFL has no vote on this.

There was meant to be a big board spill & vote of no confidence at last year but no one had the balls to VOLUNTEER their time & cop the crap for the CLUBS getting it wrong.

Legsman, you better put your hand up at the AGM & volunteer to get on the board as they AGAIN will be looking for helpers, then you may have your eyes opened as to how things are actually done in the HFL.


:shock: :lol:

Mate, all leagues have issues that seem ridiculous & make them look like a laughing stock, the problem is people would rather whinge about them or suggest something but not actually put their hand up to help. That was one major problem that came out of the review.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby no1rangler » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:09 am

I wonder if Echunga would've still kicked up this much of a stink if they got rolled in the prelim>

Sure they seem to have the media and people outside of the HFL on their side - but they knew exactly what needed to be achieved to stay in Div 1 and as a CLUB they failed.

And know to challenge the legality of the interpretation of the points towards club shield - Give it a spell!! They played 2 guns against bridgewater in the b grade to try and gain some club points during the year.....
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Amateur Footy » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:08 am

cracka wrote:
woodublieve12 wrote:
cracka wrote:The HFL board only administer the league, the clubs actually govern it.

Again the HFL has no power to change the rules, its the clubs that do that.

We are not a laughing stock, if anyone or any club feels this then F*** off to another league. The constitution would be similar to other leagues, its the by-laws (which the clubs vote in) that are different & are again governed by the CLUBS. Get that through your heads, the CLUBS govern the league & can change the by-laws. The HFL has no vote on this.

There was meant to be a big board spill & vote of no confidence at last year but no one had the balls to VOLUNTEER their time & cop the crap for the CLUBS getting it wrong.

Legsman, you better put your hand up at the AGM & volunteer to get on the board as they AGAIN will be looking for helpers, then you may have your eyes opened as to how things are actually done in the HFL.


:shock: :lol:

Mate, all leagues have issues that seem ridiculous & make them look like a laughing stock, the problem is people would rather whinge about them or suggest something but not actually put their hand up to help. That was one major problem that came out of the review.


Finally a sensible post. The HFL will follow the rules as agreed and Echunga will go down unless they gather the support for a change to the by-laws. We are in no way a laughing stock and it's only people who don't understand the system that think that.

The by-laws are there to prevent exactly what has happened, a club fielding a strong A grade side without the capacity to compete in other grades. Strengthening your seniors is much easier than your juniors so you must have a solid base when you come in, though I appreciate it isn't easy to build in a dysfunctional Country junior comp. I enjoyed the trip to Echunga this season and wish they were stronger across the board so they could stay up, however I think the move up was hasty as they have now come up to Central a 2nd time without the strength across the board. They should have learnt properly from the first attempt in mid 90s.

The one thing I do agree with was the extra allocation of points to Torrens Valley this year and other clubs (including my own) over the past few years. That should be taken off the board as they have proven to not manage it as intended.

If I were to propose two by-law changes they would be:
1) Board has no ability to change the APPS points once set based on results
2) A team promoted from Country Div is not eligible for demotion in it's first season in Central (guaranteed 2 seasons) and therefore if they finish bottom of the rankings in year 1 the club finishing 2nd bottom will be in line for demotion.

Clubs would never vote the 2nd option in to apply for the current season but it should be in place for next year to provide some reassurance to clubs seeking promotion. Going up and back down quickly can really hurt a club.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Legs Man » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:10 am

Good to read some opinion in today's Mt Barker Courier - in both editorial and letters to the editor.

It seems that change is needed and this is hopefully sooner rather than later.

Again waiting until the AGM in December is of no benefit to anyone as it immediately puts the clubs involved behind the eight ball with respect to recruiting and club direction.

I fully understand that the clubs hold the power - but the HFL as the governing body needs to drive this.

Do other leagues wait on the clubs they administer or show the way ?

Sounds like Nairne are also asking for a quick process as they want to decide their future also.

If we are debating strength of a club overall just think about TV vs Echunga in all grades - including junior teams fielded to give you some insight.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby spot on » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:14 am

no1rangler wrote:I wonder if Echunga would've still kicked up this much of a stink if they got rolled in the prelim>

Sure they seem to have the media and people outside of the HFL on their side - but they knew exactly what needed to be achieved to stay in Div 1 and as a CLUB they failed.

And know to challenge the legality of the interpretation of the points towards club shield - Give it a spell!! They played 2 guns against bridgewater in the b grade to try and gain some club points during the year.....

To be fair, this new interpretation has only been raised since season end, which was raised by LGIL on this forum. So when Echunga played these "2 guns"in B grade to try and snatch a win they were not aware of this new interpretation, so would they have done it any different had they known, who knows.
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Re: HFL Central Division

Postby Legs Man » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:18 am

Amateur Footy wrote:
cracka wrote:
woodublieve12 wrote:
cracka wrote:The HFL board only administer the league, the clubs actually govern it.

Again the HFL has no power to change the rules, its the clubs that do that.

We are not a laughing stock, if anyone or any club feels this then F*** off to another league. The constitution would be similar to other leagues, its the by-laws (which the clubs vote in) that are different & are again governed by the CLUBS. Get that through your heads, the CLUBS govern the league & can change the by-laws. The HFL has no vote on this.

There was meant to be a big board spill & vote of no confidence at last year but no one had the balls to VOLUNTEER their time & cop the crap for the CLUBS getting it wrong.

Legsman, you better put your hand up at the AGM & volunteer to get on the board as they AGAIN will be looking for helpers, then you may have your eyes opened as to how things are actually done in the HFL.


:shock: :lol:

Mate, all leagues have issues that seem ridiculous & make them look like a laughing stock, the problem is people would rather whinge about them or suggest something but not actually put their hand up to help. That was one major problem that came out of the review.


Finally a sensible post. The HFL will follow the rules as agreed and Echunga will go down unless they gather the support for a change to the by-laws. We are in no way a laughing stock and it's only people who don't understand the system that think that.

The by-laws are there to prevent exactly what has happened, a club fielding a strong A grade side without the capacity to compete in other grades. Strengthening your seniors is much easier than your juniors so you must have a solid base when you come in, though I appreciate it isn't easy to build in a dysfunctional Country junior comp. I enjoyed the trip to Echunga this season and wish they were stronger across the board so they could stay up, however I think the move up was hasty as they have now come up to Central a 2nd time without the strength across the board. They should have learnt properly from the first attempt in mid 90s.

The one thing I do agree with was the extra allocation of points to Torrens Valley this year and other clubs (including my own) over the past few years. That should be taken off the board as they have proven to not manage it as intended.

If I were to propose two by-law changes they would be:
1) Board has no ability to change the APPS points once set based on results
2) A team promoted from Country Div is not eligible for demotion in it's first season in Central (guaranteed 2 seasons) and therefore if they finish bottom of the rankings in year 1 the club finishing 2nd bottom will be in line for demotion.

Clubs would never vote the 2nd option in to apply for the current season but it should be in place for next year to provide some reassurance to clubs seeking promotion. Going up and back down quickly can really hurt a club.


Being given less time to recruit across all grades really affected Echunga's ability within the lower grades with respect to depth - particularly in the B grade.
This was due to the drawn out saga last year and the mistrust the HFL showed in Echunga's ability to field all sides in juniors.
Echunga fielded all teams and more underage sides than some other Central division clubs which must be taken into account.
If we are talking about the future of HFL football through juniors then Echunga stands higher than some others.
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