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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:59 pm

daysofourlives wrote:
Jim05 wrote:One thing is for sure, the AFL would be stoked that ASADA lost yesterday. If by some miracle ASADA had won the case there would be huge ramifications for the AFL


How so, the AFL were part of the bid to have them appear wernt they?

Yes they were. The AFL were caught in a hard place, they want to assist ASADA but had ASADA won yesterday it would of thrown all player contracts into choas. An ASADA win yesterday would mean players could contest any suspensions at court and also throws the salary cap into serious doubt as the AFL would no longer be able to control third party payments.
The AFL would be secretly chuffed about yesterdays result
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby stan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:18 pm

Jim05 wrote:
daysofourlives wrote:
Jim05 wrote:One thing is for sure, the AFL would be stoked that ASADA lost yesterday. If by some miracle ASADA had won the case there would be huge ramifications for the AFL


How so, the AFL were part of the bid to have them appear wernt they?

Yes they were. The AFL were caught in a hard place, they want to assist ASADA but had ASADA won yesterday it would of thrown all player contracts into choas. An ASADA win yesterday would mean players could contest any suspensions at court and also throws the salary cap into serious doubt as the AFL would no longer be able to control third party payments.
The AFL would be secretly chuffed about yesterdays result

Sorry I dont follow the section about 3rd part payments and subpoenas in regards to appearing at a tribunal.
Read my reply. It is directed at you because you have double standards
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Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:36 pm

Alavi and Charters were not employed by the AFL or Essendon so ASADA have no power to compell them to attend. At the court trial ASADA were trying to argue that AFL players were not employees of the AFL but rather contractors and somehow this would tie in Alavi and Charters. If they won and players were deemed as contractors it would blow apart all current contractual arrangements
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby stan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:48 pm

Jim05 wrote:Alavi and Charters were not employed by the AFL or Essendon so ASADA have no power to compell them to attend. At the court trial ASADA were trying to argue that AFL players were not employees of the AFL but rather contractors and somehow this would tie in Alavi and Charters. If they won and players were deemed as contractors it would blow apart all current contractual arrangements

Really?

Even if they were contracters how would that effect the salary cap?

Just means the contracts have more value. The cap wouldn't be an issue as the club would still have to ensure all contracts were still under the cap as they do now.

Either way from the AFL it change nothing.
Read my reply. It is directed at you because you have double standards
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Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:06 pm

This explains it better than I can.
Was mentioned on SEN that the AFL would be relieved to lose as it could affect things like third party agreements down the track




Witness ruling a body blow to ASADA case
CHIP LE GRAND
THE AUSTRALIAN
DECEMBER 13, 2014 12:00AM

Pharmacist Nima Alavi
ASADA has failed to secure the testimony of pharmacist Nima Alavi, a key witness.

THE Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority will limp into the most important prosecution in the organisation’s eight-year history without its two key witnesses and with a substantially weakened case.

An emphatic ruling by the Victorian Supreme Court slammed the door shut on ASADA’s 11th-hour bid to compel the testimony of the witnesses, who have refused to provide sworn statements or ­appear before an AFL tribunal convened to hear the Essendon doping case.

ASADA’s failure to secure the testimony of drug importer Shane Charter and pharmacist Nima Alavi has left the anti-doping body unable to call a witness to explain the crux of its case; how a banned peptide was allegedly imported from China, compounded at a pharmacy in Melbourne’s Toorak and provided to Stephen Dank, a sports scientist then employed by Essendon. In a statement in ­response to the court ruling, ASADA said it would rely on written and recorded evidence previously gathered from Mr Charter and Mr Alavi, who conducted multiple ­interviews with ASADA investigators.

The AFL tribunal is not a court of law and not required to follow strict rules of evidence. However, natural justice principles apply. Under established legal convention, the tribunal is obligated to place less weight on the evidence of witnesses who refuse to subject themselves to cross-examination.

ASADA must prove to “comfortable satisfaction’’ that Mr Dank injected 34 players with the banned peptide Thymosin Beta-4. Due to the seriousness of the charges and potential penalties against the players — they face mandatory, two-year suspensions if found guilty — the standard of proof required is close to that of a criminal case.

ASADA has not gathered any direct evidence that Essendon players were injected with Thymosin Beta 4. Its own investi­gators, in their final report, recommended the case be dropped, citing insurmountable problems. Lawyers familiar with ASADA’s brief of evidence believe that without the testimony of Mr Alavi and Mr Charter, the case is doomed. The Australian revealed two months ago that Mr Charter, a self-styled anti-ageing consultant currently facing unrelated criminal drug charges, had not agreed to testify.

Supreme Court judge Clyde Croft yesterday said a joint application by ASADA and the AFL to use a provision of the Commercial Arbitration Act to compel the ­reluctant witnesses to testimony “fails in all respects’’.

In dismissing the application and awarding costs against the AFL and ASADA, Justice Croft ruled the AFL tribunal was not an arbiter tribunal, nor a commercial tribunal, and that the Commercial Arbitration Act had no jurisdiction over its workings.

Despite having to share with ASADA an estimated $150,000 legal bill for lawyers representing the players and Mr Alavi, in ­addition to their own sizeable legal costs, the AFL is privately relieved that the application failed. Had the judge ruled the other way, it would have exposed future AFL tribunal hearings to potential Supreme Court appeals.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby stan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:26 pm

Now I get what your on about.

Probably would have opened up tje 3rd party agreements a bit more.
Read my reply. It is directed at you because you have double standards
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby kickinit » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:42 am

Jim05 wrote:Was always going ahead on Monday but ASADA still may appeal todays decision. The judge will give his reasons why he rejected their case on Tuesday or Wednesday next week and depending on the answer they get it will determine if they appeal. The appeal would be held mid January.
The question I ask is why ASADA tried to subpoena two people that were never ever going to be forced to appear in court. Surely ASADA's legal team would of seen that they could never win today, just seems like a waste of time and money


They weren't employee's of the AFL or Essendon but they did do work work for Essendon, which i'm also sure they got paid for. You add that with the evidence they have given looks like a pretty good reason to get them to appear at the tribunal.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:01 am

kickinit wrote:
Jim05 wrote:Was always going ahead on Monday but ASADA still may appeal todays decision. The judge will give his reasons why he rejected their case on Tuesday or Wednesday next week and depending on the answer they get it will determine if they appeal. The appeal would be held mid January.
The question I ask is why ASADA tried to subpoena two people that were never ever going to be forced to appear in court. Surely ASADA's legal team would of seen that they could never win today, just seems like a waste of time and money


They weren't employee's of the AFL or Essendon but they did do work work for Essendon, which i'm also sure they got paid for. You add that with the evidence they have given looks like a pretty good reason to get them to appear at the tribunal.

Totally incorrect there kickinit, they never worked for Essendon or were paid a cent by the club. Dank was the only one employed by the club and it was he who outsourced his work and paid Charters and Alavi.
Dank should be the one subpoened but they seem totally disinterested in getting him to court. This I cant understand, he seems to be the main player in all this. If ASADA got him to court it could possibly hang us
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby kickinit » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:31 pm

Jim05 wrote:
kickinit wrote:
Jim05 wrote:Was always going ahead on Monday but ASADA still may appeal todays decision. The judge will give his reasons why he rejected their case on Tuesday or Wednesday next week and depending on the answer they get it will determine if they appeal. The appeal would be held mid January.
The question I ask is why ASADA tried to subpoena two people that were never ever going to be forced to appear in court. Surely ASADA's legal team would of seen that they could never win today, just seems like a waste of time and money


They weren't employee's of the AFL or Essendon but they did do work work for Essendon, which i'm also sure they got paid for. You add that with the evidence they have given looks like a pretty good reason to get them to appear at the tribunal.

Totally incorrect there kickinit, they never worked for Essendon or were paid a cent by the club. Dank was the only one employed by the club and it was he who outsourced his work and paid Charters and Alavi.
Dank should be the one subpoened but they seem totally disinterested in getting him to court. This I cant understand, he seems to be the main player in all this. If ASADA got him to court it could possibly hang us


Hang you say i'm wrong but then end up saying the same thing I said. Like I said they weren't employed by the club but they did do work for the club. Do you really think Dank handed over his own money to the 2? No the club was the ones fronting the bill for it. It wouldn't of been them directly paying them, but dank would of been given a budget from which these 2 were paid.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:25 pm

kickinit wrote:
Jim05 wrote:
kickinit wrote:
Jim05 wrote:Was always going ahead on Monday but ASADA still may appeal todays decision. The judge will give his reasons why he rejected their case on Tuesday or Wednesday next week and depending on the answer they get it will determine if they appeal. The appeal would be held mid January.
The question I ask is why ASADA tried to subpoena two people that were never ever going to be forced to appear in court. Surely ASADA's legal team would of seen that they could never win today, just seems like a waste of time and money


They weren't employee's of the AFL or Essendon but they did do work work for Essendon, which i'm also sure they got paid for. You add that with the evidence they have given looks like a pretty good reason to get them to appear at the tribunal.

Totally incorrect there kickinit, they never worked for Essendon or were paid a cent by the club. Dank was the only one employed by the club and it was he who outsourced his work and paid Charters and Alavi.
Dank should be the one subpoened but they seem totally disinterested in getting him to court. This I cant understand, he seems to be the main player in all this. If ASADA got him to court it could possibly hang us


Hang you say i'm wrong but then end up saying the same thing I said. Like I said they weren't employed by the club but they did do work for the club. Do you really think Dank handed over his own money to the 2? No the club was the ones fronting the bill for it. It wouldn't of been them directly paying them, but dank would of been given a budget from which these 2 were paid.

Sorry misread your initial post.
A couple of media outlets have been saying Essendon directly paid Charters and Alavi which is an outright lie and the judge believed this to be the case.
My point still stands about Dank though, he was given money by the club with strict instructions that all supplements and parts of the program were to be WADA and ASADA complient and not illegal.
Dank needs to be compelled to attend court and reveal what he did after that.
The funny thing is even if Charters and Alavi were forced to go to court they were under no obligation to answer any questions, ASADA has admitted this themselves so what was the point of trying to subpoena them?
Anyway its all done now and the real stuff starts tomorrow, should know more by mid January
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby kickinit » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Jim05 wrote:Sorry misread your initial post.
A couple of media outlets have been saying Essendon directly paid Charters and Alavi which is an outright lie and the judge believed this to be the case.
My point still stands about Dank though, he was given money by the club with strict instructions that all supplements and parts of the program were to be WADA and ASADA complient and not illegal.
Dank needs to be compelled to attend court and reveal what he did after that.
The funny thing is even if Charters and Alavi were forced to go to court they were under no obligation to answer any questions, ASADA has admitted this themselves so what was the point of trying to subpoena them?
Anyway its all done now and the real stuff starts tomorrow, should know more by mid January


Thats a load of crap. The club knew along what was going on and not once did they do anything to stop it. Hird knew exactly what was going because he was the one that asked for it. ASADA isn't going to waste time at this point to chase Dank because they know they will be handing him a lifetime ban after this case is over. Chasing Dank will do nothing he isn't gong to talk and he sure isn't handing any evidence over. In actual fact I think it's in Essendon favour that he doesn't attend.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:48 pm

kickinit wrote:
Jim05 wrote:Sorry misread your initial post.
A couple of media outlets have been saying Essendon directly paid Charters and Alavi which is an outright lie and the judge believed this to be the case.
My point still stands about Dank though, he was given money by the club with strict instructions that all supplements and parts of the program were to be WADA and ASADA complient and not illegal.
Dank needs to be compelled to attend court and reveal what he did after that.
The funny thing is even if Charters and Alavi were forced to go to court they were under no obligation to answer any questions, ASADA has admitted this themselves so what was the point of trying to subpoena them?
Anyway its all done now and the real stuff starts tomorrow, should know more by mid January


Thats a load of crap. The club knew along what was going on and not once did they do anything to stop it. Hird knew exactly what was going because he was the one that asked for it. ASADA isn't going to waste time at this point to chase Dank because they know they will be handing him a lifetime ban after this case is over. Chasing Dank will do nothing he isn't gong to talk and he sure isn't handing any evidence over. In actual fact I think it's in Essendon favour that he doesn't attend.

Have you read all of the interim report or all the transcripts from Hird's court case?
From files and emails seized from the club there were several emails between Hird and Dank that stated nothing harmful or illegal was to be used and all supplements ASADA and WADA approved. Yes we should never of employed the bloke and Hird was foolish for listening to Robinson and getting Dank in to start the program.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby kickinit » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:32 am

Jim05 wrote:
kickinit wrote:
Jim05 wrote:Sorry misread your initial post.
A couple of media outlets have been saying Essendon directly paid Charters and Alavi which is an outright lie and the judge believed this to be the case.
My point still stands about Dank though, he was given money by the club with strict instructions that all supplements and parts of the program were to be WADA and ASADA complient and not illegal.
Dank needs to be compelled to attend court and reveal what he did after that.
The funny thing is even if Charters and Alavi were forced to go to court they were under no obligation to answer any questions, ASADA has admitted this themselves so what was the point of trying to subpoena them?
Anyway its all done now and the real stuff starts tomorrow, should know more by mid January


Thats a load of crap. The club knew along what was going on and not once did they do anything to stop it. Hird knew exactly what was going because he was the one that asked for it. ASADA isn't going to waste time at this point to chase Dank because they know they will be handing him a lifetime ban after this case is over. Chasing Dank will do nothing he isn't gong to talk and he sure isn't handing any evidence over. In actual fact I think it's in Essendon favour that he doesn't attend.

Have you read all of the interim report or all the transcripts from Hird's court case?
From files and emails seized from the club there were several emails between Hird and Dank that stated nothing harmful or illegal was to be used and all supplements ASADA and WADA approved. Yes we should never of employed the bloke and Hird was foolish for listening to Robinson and getting Dank in to start the program.


Seriously jim those emails were only there to try and cover their ass. The doctor raised the question that he didn't think it was legal, nothing was done. The players were receiving injections that weren't approved by ASADA or given by the club doctor, nothing was done. Hird himself was getting crap given to him in his office, nothing was done. The club employed a bloke that has no qualifications, nothing was done. Essendon and bird knew what was going on the entire time and they did nothing to stop it. Girds black ops mission was always going to involve banned substances.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Red Rocket » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:43 am

Get a room you two lol.
Seriously this whole thing has been handled badly by all parties, finally it looks like coming to a end.
If they are found guilty then throw the maximum penalty at them but if they are somehow exonerated I hope the media and everyone else gets off their back.
I doubt the truth will ever come out completely but its good to see arguments from both sides of the fence on here
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby stan » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Report by Patrick Keane today was that it started and is likely to move slowly and be a long drawn out affair.
Read my reply. It is directed at you because you have double standards
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:12 pm

stan wrote:Report by Patrick Keane today was that it started and is likely to move slowly and be a long drawn out affair.

The earliest we will hear of anything will be mid January.
Today ASADA spent the day putting their case forward, next 2 days there is no court and then Thursday and Friday ASADA will continue. They then break until mid January and that will be about when the players lawyers have their first say. Wouldnt expect a decision until Feb or March
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Psyber » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:31 am

I don't believe those in the Essendon hierarchy did not at least have suspicions and choose to ignore them rather than come clean as soon as they began to see the pattern. They are also responsible for not having done their due diligence when the idea was first floated. Players also can't hide behind "We were only following orders" either. An example must be made.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Rik E Boy » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:57 pm

Image

Essendon?? I'm so sick of that guy!

regards,

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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Fricky » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:05 am

From The Australian

New drug and two more clubs in AFL doping saga
THE AFL doping scandal is wider than previously revealed, with ASADA accusing Essendon players of taking a second banned substance and sports scientist Stephen Dank of trafficking peptides to club officials at the Gold Coast Suns and Carlton and covering up doping by a Gold Coast footballer.
An outline of ASADA’s case and other documents currently before a specially convened AFL tribunal allege that Dank supplied banned substances including human growth hormone to a Carlton coach and provided the banned peptide CJC-1295 to more than one official at the Gold Coast Suns.
Dank is also accused of covering up the use of CJC-1295 — the substance at the centre of the Cronulla doping case — by Gold Coast defender Nathan Bock.
ASADA has not initiated proceedings against Bock, who retired from the AFL earlier this year.
Despite ASADA’s belief that Essendon footballers were given Hexarelin as well as the banned peptide Thymosin Beta-4 during the 2012 season, doping charges against 34 current and former -Essendon players relate only to Thymosin Beta-4.
The involvement of three AFL clubs and multiple banned substances in the ASADA case is revealed in an outline prepared by ASADA’s senior counsel, Malcolm Holmes QC, and an ASADA charge sheet issued against Dank.
In both the case outline and charge sheet, ASADA alleges that Dank administered Essendon footballers with Hexarelin and Thymosin Beta-4.
The charges involving Carlton relate to a high-profile coach no longer working at the club. ASADA alleges that Dank provided one or more of human growth hormone, SARMs, Hexarelin, Mechano Growth Factor and CJC-1295 to the coach between March and October 2012.
The charges involving the Gold Coast Suns predate the Essendon scandal. ASADA alleges that in December 2010, when Dank and high-performance coach Dean Robinson were employed by the AFL franchise club, Dank covered up “the use or attempted use of a prohibited substances, namely CJC-1295, by a player at the Gold Coast Suns”.
The Australian has previously revealed that Robinson when employed by the Gold Coast injected himself with CJC-1295 supplied by Dank. ASADA alleges that at the time of Bock’s treatment with CJC-1295, Dank provided the banned substance to at least one other support person employed by the club.
The evidence gathered by ASADA supporting the use of Thymosin Beta 4 and Hexarelin at Essendon substantially overlaps.
ASADA has largely built its case on documents and interviews provided by drug importer Shane Charter and pharmacist Nima Alavi in which they discussed how raw materials for peptides were procured by Charter, compounded into injectable form by Alavi and supplied to Dank.
Charter and Alavi have refused to provide sworn statements to ASADA or testify before the AFL tribunal.
ASADA claims to have witness evidence corroborating its allegation that Essendon players were administered with Hexarelin but no club records or player ¬testimony confirming its use by players.
The 34 players signed consent forms to be administered with a Thymosin peptide.
ASADA alleges they were given Thymosin Beta-4. Lawyers for the players will tell the tribunal the players were administered Thymomodulin or Thymosin Alpha-1, Thymosin peptides permitted by WADA.
In addition to administering Essendon players with Thymosin Beta 4 and Hexarelin, Dank is accused of possessing a Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator and Humanfort, a product that contains growth hormone and banned peptides, while working at Essendon. Dank and Robinson, Dank’s direct boss at Essendon, have maintained no players were given banned substances.
The AFL hearing resumes tomorrow before a three-man panel chaired by retired Victorian County Court judge David Jones.
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Re: Essendon 2014

Postby Jim05 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:18 pm

Great news with Dyson Heppell signing until 2020
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