Mass debate with Morell

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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby the milky bar kid » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:19 pm

morell wrote:Sorry Milky that wasn't meant to be overly critical, and you're certainly not alone in your thinking, hence why I think it's a Myth!

... and how humans interact and behave in group think type situations is something which is nebulous at the best of times.


All good, debate is welcomed.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby Jetters » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:23 pm

1. You play the way you train.
2. Pre-seasons are really important in amateur football.
3. Stretching achieves anything, ever.
4. Every club pays players.
5. Getting to a game early allows for a superior preparation.
6. Business slacks make you a more professional and disciplined club.
7. Strapping does anything, ever.
8. Outside players are soft.
9. Going up a division attracts better quality players and people.
10. Voice and communication is REALLY important


2 and 9 are just so bullsh!t.

2 - for just such obvious reasons.

9 - if you look at clubs in higher divisions they have more volunteers in general, but particularly volunteers with professional skills who assist in their area of expertise. That's why they go up divisions, it's self fulfilling. Also players coming from SANFL grades or good footballers new to the area never came to our club when we were at the bottom of Div 4, attracting these people at the top of Div 3 and Div 2 is infinitely easier.

@Morrell, could you accept that these 'myths' are heavily influenced due to the fact you have been involved in a club at the bottom of the pecking order?
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby jo172 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:25 pm

As you'll likely find next year @Jetters, selling a bloke fresh out of League Footy on Div 1 is ridiculously easier than selling them on Div 4.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:42 pm

Jetters wrote:
1. You play the way you train.
2. Pre-seasons are really important in amateur football.
3. Stretching achieves anything, ever.
4. Every club pays players.
5. Getting to a game early allows for a superior preparation.
6. Business slacks make you a more professional and disciplined club.
7. Strapping does anything, ever.
8. Outside players are soft.
9. Going up a division attracts better quality players and people.
10. Voice and communication is REALLY important


2 and 9 are just so bullsh!t.

2 - for just such obvious reasons.

9 - if you look at clubs in higher divisions they have more volunteers in general, but particularly volunteers with professional skills who assist in their area of expertise. That's why they go up divisions, it's self fulfilling. Also players coming from SANFL grades or good footballers new to the area never came to our club when we were at the bottom of Div 4, attracting these people at the top of Div 3 and Div 2 is infinitely easier.

@Morrell, could you accept that these 'myths' are heavily influenced due to the fact you have been involved in a club at the bottom of the pecking order?
#2, in its purest from, is spot on.

It's in the subtlety. Pre season is a worthwhile exercise - I'm not saying don't be fit - and I'd suggest a good pre season would gain significance the higher up the division is, but from D3 or D4 downwards, talent, structure, depth and ... motivation, are all much more important than the 5km time trial the squad did before Christmas. By the time you factor in natural physiological difference between players, match fitness gained from playing several rounds and the lack of real fitness expertise, pre-seasons are massively overrated by the general amateur football pundit.

#9, again, is in its subtlety. I'm not saying teams haven't recruited people because they've climbed divisions, or that clubs haven't lost people after they've been relegated, more that going up divisions is NOT a recipe in itself for recruiting good people.

This is because the reverse is also true. Look at Brahma Lodge this year, look any number of clubs who have made the leap to D1 over the years. Relegation and Promotion is not a died in the wool indicator of player/volunteer fluctuations. It can be a factor yes, but the myth was predicated on the "go up a division and you'll get more recruits" type thinking that is prevalent on sa footy.

EDIT - Otherwise, why would the SAAFL and any number of clubs promote the idea of dropping divisions to "rebuild". ;)
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby Jetters » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:08 pm

morell wrote:
Jetters wrote:
1. You play the way you train.
2. Pre-seasons are really important in amateur football.
3. Stretching achieves anything, ever.
4. Every club pays players.
5. Getting to a game early allows for a superior preparation.
6. Business slacks make you a more professional and disciplined club.
7. Strapping does anything, ever.
8. Outside players are soft.
9. Going up a division attracts better quality players and people.
10. Voice and communication is REALLY important


2 and 9 are just so bullsh!t.

2 - for just such obvious reasons.

9 - if you look at clubs in higher divisions they have more volunteers in general, but particularly volunteers with professional skills who assist in their area of expertise. That's why they go up divisions, it's self fulfilling. Also players coming from SANFL grades or good footballers new to the area never came to our club when we were at the bottom of Div 4, attracting these people at the top of Div 3 and Div 2 is infinitely easier.

@Morrell, could you accept that these 'myths' are heavily influenced due to the fact you have been involved in a club at the bottom of the pecking order?
#2, in its purest from, is spot on.

It's in the subtlety. Pre season is a worthwhile exercise - I'm not saying don't be fit - and I'd suggest a good pre season would gain significance the higher up the division is, but from D3 or D4 downwards, talent, structure, depth and ... motivation, are all much more important than the 5km time trial the squad did before Christmas. By the time you factor in natural physiological difference between players, match fitness gained from playing several rounds and the lack of real fitness expertise, pre-seasons are massively overrated by the general amateur football pundit.

#9, again, is in its subtlety. I'm not saying teams haven't recruited people because they've climbed divisions, or that clubs haven't lost people after they've been relegated, more that going up divisions is NOT a recipe in itself for recruiting good people.

This is because the reverse is also true. Look at Brahma Lodge this year, look any number of clubs who have made the leap to D1 over the years. Relegation and Promotion is not a died in the wool indicator of player/volunteer fluctuations. It can be a factor yes, but the myth was predicated on the "go up a division and you'll get more recruits" type thinking that is prevalent on sa footy.

EDIT - Otherwise, why would the SAAFL and any number of clubs promote the idea of dropping divisions to "rebuild". ;)


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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby The Bedge » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:13 am

What's your take on player/coaches morell? Can they work? Should they be allowed/encouraged?
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby whufc » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:42 am

morell wrote:So I have been politely told that insurance is batshit boring, and to get into more entertaining topics. Such as ..

morell's myths!!! *applause*

For those playing at home, this is what we're up to:

morell's Myths!
1. You play the way you train.
2. Pre-seasons are really important in amateur football.
3. Stretching achieves anything, ever.
4. Every club pays players.
5. Getting to a game early allows for a superior preparation.
6. Business slacks make you a more professional and disciplined club.
7. Strapping does anything, ever.
8. Outside players are soft.
9. Going up a division attracts better quality players and people.


I think it's now time for number 10!

10. Voice and communication is REALLY important

Complete myth! It always gets trotted out at training and before games - "lift your voice lads" , "even if you're not getting the ball, still use your voice" , "there's no voice out there, lets lift it up!" etc

I reckon every coach I have ever had has used this mantra, it's as if they think that yelling something across the field magically turns spud footballers into Ablett - like some sort of Harry Potter spell.

Give me 21 talented, motivated, smart, strong, young footballers with each position covered in a decent structure and rip out their voiceboxes. Copy and paste them but downgrade them all slightly so they're a bit shorter, a bit weaker, replace the CHB with a softi-ish flanker and take out the Full Forward and replace with stubby type. If they played each other the voiceless ones would win 99 times out of 100.

Now that's not to say one shouldn't yell out "mine!" or "you're hot", but to make it such a large focus is disproportionate to it's actual impact on gameday. I know personally I often don't hear voice if i'm concentrating on the ball. There are so many voices out there that its almost impossible to delineate what is the correct thing to listen to and what isn't. And that's if the person yelling out incoherent mumbo jumbo gets it right anyway.

Classic example is a game I played recently, we're were getting a bit of a towel up so I moved to a loose man in defense. I am sitting in front of the full forward and the ball comes in - I hear clearly "You're right Morgs! You're right morgs! You're right". So of course I think OK, I will sit here and take an easy mark, because.... I was OK and in the clear, right? The full forward glides over the top and takes a mark as I sat there looking like a moron. I turned and laughed and said "I thought you said I was right?!?!" Full back replies - "yeah I meant that you wouldn't get cleaned up so you could attack it". Right. I would have been better off not hearing anything and just assuming I needed to attack it.

I wonder how many times voice helps, and how many times voice distracts?

I think it's a case, as with many of morell's myths, that we don't see the forest for the trees. We focus on tiny little minutiae that in the grand scheme of things don't matter.

inb4 - this is why Mitchell Park are 1-5 in D7, because you don't use your voice.


Having played soccer all my life you find alot of clubs do a heaps of 'silent' training

The theory being the players off the ball should be running to the right areas that the player on the ball visually knows where to give it

It's great for teaching players how to give to the 'first option' or to play that 'simple ball'

Also helps when putting in place a structure and making players kick to a certain spot regardless of noise etc around them
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:17 am

Zartan wrote:What's your take on player/coaches morell? Can they work? Should they be allowed/encouraged?
Not a fan generally speaking. Those at Mitchell Park would know how critical I have been of having a playing coach for our reserves this year - the problems are exacerbated when you have a lack of volunteers and/or assistants.

If a player coach is unavoidable, then IMO a game day coach with full autonomy must also be appointed to be on the sidelines. Otherwise the simple things just get missed and it costs you - matchups, direction, interchange, game time, rotations ... etc

It can work I suppose but the teams that have had success with it (WOS off the top of my head) would've had success anyway due to their inherent talent and depth.

I personally have had some quite candid discussions with our reserves coach after a couple of notable incidents, since these incidents if there is a player with half a head in his brain that is available due to injury - they are encouraged to be an assistant coach, move some magnets, make some obvious changes and ensure the administration of the teams tactics goes smoothly. This has been Brad Steele for a few weeks and myself last week (lucky, as I've only got a third of a brain) and its worked quite well - we've been much more competitive for longer despite having weaker sides. Lynchy has also been fantastic and dedicated some time to give us a hand until he has to pick up on his A Grade duties.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:23 am

whufc wrote:Having played soccer all my life you find alot of clubs do a heaps of 'silent' training

The theory being the players off the ball should be running to the right areas that the player on the ball visually knows where to give it

It's great for teaching players how to give to the 'first option' or to play that 'simple ball'

Also helps when putting in place a structure and making players kick to a certain spot regardless of noise etc around them
Spot on! We did it in basketball too. The theory was that you as an individual should be able to remember and understand the set plays without having to telegraph it to the opposition with constant instruction.

"Voice" as a general concept has a much bigger emphasis put on it in Aussie Rules compared to the other sports I have played - Basketball and Rugby Union.

The reasons for that I'm not sure. Part of me things its got a lot to do with "that's the way we've always done it" and "this is how I've been taught" rather than actually critically thinking about the sport.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby whufc » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:30 am

morell wrote:
whufc wrote:Having played soccer all my life you find alot of clubs do a heaps of 'silent' training

The theory being the players off the ball should be running to the right areas that the player on the ball visually knows where to give it

It's great for teaching players how to give to the 'first option' or to play that 'simple ball'

Also helps when putting in place a structure and making players kick to a certain spot regardless of noise etc around them
Spot on! We did it in basketball too. The theory was that you as an individual should be able to remember and understand the set plays without having to telegraph it to the opposition with constant instruction.

"Voice" as a general concept has a much bigger emphasis put on it in Aussie Rules compared to the other sports I have played - Basketball and Rugby Union.

The reasons for that I'm not sure. Part of me things its got a lot to do with "that's the way we've always done it" and "this is how I've been taught" rather than actually critically thinking about the sport.


Have just started playing rugby union and totally agree, playing in the backs very little voice is used and more reliance on knowing 'where you SHOULD be'

In regards to pre season as far as structures and tactics go pre season is great but as far as 'fitness' goes it's pretty irrelevant

Obviously any cardio training is better than none but realistically if the bloke then goes and drinks 6 beers, smokes a pack of darts, eats hungry jacks etc

The couple of hours of training is 'almost' null and void.

Having come from a fitness back ground it does make me laugh how much training amatuer clubs do before the Christmas break.

The key is making players understand what they can do outside of training to maximise physical condition, correct meals and hydration on a Friday night before a game, decent breakfast and hydratoon morning of game, recovery techniques on a Sunday are crucial
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby whufc » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:31 am

morell wrote:
whufc wrote:Having played soccer all my life you find alot of clubs do a heaps of 'silent' training

The theory being the players off the ball should be running to the right areas that the player on the ball visually knows where to give it

It's great for teaching players how to give to the 'first option' or to play that 'simple ball'

Also helps when putting in place a structure and making players kick to a certain spot regardless of noise etc around them
Spot on! We did it in basketball too. The theory was that you as an individual should be able to remember and understand the set plays without having to telegraph it to the opposition with constant instruction.

"Voice" as a general concept has a much bigger emphasis put on it in Aussie Rules compared to the other sports I have played - Basketball and Rugby Union.

The reasons for that I'm not sure. Part of me things its got a lot to do with "that's the way we've always done it" and "this is how I've been taught" rather than actually critically thinking about the sport.


I find in aussie rules voice is used as much as a intimidatory prescence than anything else, screaming for the ball at the top of ur lungs as u run past your teammate is more about the primal instinct of saying I want it more etc etc

In general the bloke calling for the ball is generally in the worse position on the park to know whether he should get it or not as he wont be able to see who is coming at him from all directions where the bloke with the ball can actually see 360 degrees around the bloke he is going to give it to
Last edited by whufc on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:32 am

I like the cut of your jib whufc!
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:43 pm

We're up to eleven now :D

morell's Myths!
1. You play the way you train.
2. Pre-seasons are really important in amateur football.
3. Stretching achieves anything, ever.
4. Every club pays players.
5. Getting to a game early allows for a superior preparation.
6. Business slacks make you a more professional and disciplined club.
7. Strapping does anything, ever.
8. Outside players are soft.
9. Going up a division attracts better quality players and people.
10. Voice and communication is REALLY important
11. Hiding your better players by not putting them in the paper is effective
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:48 pm

Twelve!! :D

morell's Myths!
1. You play the way you train.
2. Pre-seasons are really important in amateur football.
3. Stretching achieves anything, ever.
4. Every club pays players.
5. Getting to a game early allows for a superior preparation.
6. Business slacks make you a more professional and disciplined club.
7. Strapping does anything, ever.
8. Outside players are soft.
9. Going up a division attracts better quality players and people.
10. Voice and communication is REALLY important
11. Hiding your better players by not putting them in the paper is effective
12. Umpires are capable of adjudicating best players
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby jo172 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:03 am

One I've been thinking about as of late is that the importance of securing a double chance is massively overrated.

one in every twenty premiership sides at best would lose a final then go on to win a premiership. To win a flag you just need to keep winning.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:14 am

I like it!

I think the notion in the AFL at least is that top 4 means you get at least one home final - especially critical for non-vic teams I reckon. Winning games in a row is one thing, winning games in a row and travelling every week is another. Perhaps in time gone by that was more of an advantage than it is today with the centralisation of games to inner city stadiums.

At the amateur level, would be a pretty simple analysis! I'll do some work and see if your 1 in 20 stat rings true.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby human_torpedo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:20 am

Couldn't be more true in div 6R this season, both GF teams have won all there finals..

Having said that, It is certainly not the norm that a side comes from an elimination final.. Usually a GF side has lost a final
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby Booney » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:24 am

whufc wrote:In general the bloke calling for the ball is generally in the worse position on the park to know whether he should get it or not as he wont be able to see who is coming at him from all directions where the bloke with the ball can actually see 360 degrees around the bloke he is going to give it to


What if the ball carrier gives it to someone not directly in front of him?

Midfielders moving the ball out of the centre rarely go straight ahead, lots of lateral movement and as soon as you move laterally you don't have time to see the receivers complete surrounds.

Footy is 36 blokes on a much larger field of play with many more options. A hand ball to a long kick could be 50m+ in difference. Basketball is very limited to space, therefore being in the right place at the right time is critical. In soccer, it's rare to send the ball more than 40m from one player to another, therefore set up is critical.

Look at how zones get broken down in footy, there's so many variables, be it long kicking, chains of handballs, none of these work without communication.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby jo172 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:35 am

human_torpedo wrote:Couldn't be more true in div 6R this season, both GF teams have won all there finals..

Having said that, It is certainly not the norm that a side comes from an elimination final.. Usually a GF side has lost a final


Grand FInalist yes, premiership side I suspect very rarely.
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Re: Mass debate with Morell

Postby morell » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:48 am

8 teams have lost a final and gone on to win the flag since 2013. All of them were a team losing the second semi and then reversing the result in the GF.

D6 2013 - Westminster lost to CLG
D8 2013 - Modbury lost to SMOSH
D1 2014 - Goodwood lost to ROCS
D3 2014 - Modbury lost to Unley
D4 2014 - Golden Grove lost to Salisbury West
D1R 2014 - Goodwood lost to ROCS
D6R 2014 - Lockleys lost to Rosewater
D8R 2014 - PAOC lost to Hope Valley

That's 8 out of 34 (inc 2015 D7) which equates to 24%. Bit more than your 1 out of 20 (5%) jo! Not the biggest sample size and we will see what happens after this weeks games.
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