Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Trader » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:46 pm

Q. wrote:
Trader wrote:Morell, what are your thoughts on the nature and rates of crime from various immigrant groups?

I agree NZ are the largest group of immigrants doing illegal things, but they are also the largest group are they not?

The rate of crime (45 times the general population) and nature of the crimes that we see reported from the Sudanese Immigrants is a large cause for concern in my opinion.
It's not a factor of 45. Your 2011 population data compared to 2015 crime data is way out.


Agreed its not a perfect comparison, I stated that at the time.
But whatever the numbers, the point stands, they are significantly overrepresented in the data.

Edit, found some info on ABS.
The Sudanese population within Australia increased 11.86% from 2011 to 2015, of which the Australian population increased 8.01%, giving a net increase in Sudanese of 3.56%.

Seems a bit low to me, but assuming it's correct, then that 45 times should actually be 43.5 times.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:12 pm

Trader wrote:
Q. wrote:
Trader wrote:Morell, what are your thoughts on the nature and rates of crime from various immigrant groups?

I agree NZ are the largest group of immigrants doing illegal things, but they are also the largest group are they not?

The rate of crime (45 times the general population) and nature of the crimes that we see reported from the Sudanese Immigrants is a large cause for concern in my opinion.
It's not a factor of 45. Your 2011 population data compared to 2015 crime data is way out.


Agreed its not a perfect comparison, I stated that at the time.
But whatever the numbers, the point stands, they are significantly overrepresented in the data.

Edit, found some info on ABS.
The Sudanese population within Australia increased 11.86% from 2011 to 2015, of which the Australian population increased 8.01%, giving a net increase in Sudanese of 3.56%.

Seems a bit low to me, but assuming it's correct, then that 45 times should actually be 43.5 times.
You need Vic stats.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby morell » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:14 pm

You also can’t just use a simple % of x as a measure. If you’re going to try and determine if Somali gangs are an anomaly you have to do a more rigorous benchmark analysis.

Ethnicity
Age
Socio-Economic (SEIFA)
etc

Otherwise you creep into Homer Simpson's Anti-Tiger Rock type territory of logical fallacy.

I did an interesting one as an undergraduate using location and the Gini Index (a statistical measure of difference, in simple terms) for those playing at home. What’s fascinating is peoples abject level of “poverty” isn’t affected by their literal position on the socio-economic ladder, but rather the difference in that ladder position compared to those around them. This explains why a dirt poor peasant in rural Bhutan measures as “happier” than a relatively wealthy (but not as much as his mates) New Yorker. Food for thought. The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:01 pm

morell wrote:
Jimmy_041 wrote:Nah, I don't buy it.

Fortunately, you don't have to, because the facts are:

At 30 November 2017, there were 1301 people in held immigration detention facilities. Of these 1301 people, 13.5 per cent were from New Zealand, 7.8 per cent were from Sri Lanka, 7.6 per cent were from Vietnam, 6.8 per cent were from Iran and 5.7 per cent were from China.

Image

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/Reportsa ... r-2017.pdf

How did those from NZ get here? by plane or boat.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Trader » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:28 pm

morell wrote:The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.


So we should just accept it and let it happen for the next 25 years?
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:37 am

morell wrote:Absolutely I was. The entire premise of my posts was to highlight that Kiwi’s make up the largest proportion of people who face immigration issues.

Illegal immigration, immigrants who are staying here illegally, migrants undertaking illegal things, criminal migrants, non-Australian migrants doing illegal things - however the **** you want to ******* coin it, the point remains the same….

Which is - “stop the boats” and “Sudanese gangs” that type of rhetoric is simply dog whistle politics, based on the fact most people aren’t actually that concerned about protecting borders, but rather protecting borders against people that don’t look, sound or act like them. If they were just concerned about protecting borders from a safety and economic perspective, they would be welcoming people by boat, banning flights from New Zealand and removing the subclass Visa instead of sticking “**** off we’re full” stickers on their commodores.

Don't care what they look or sound like but totally expect them to act like us, that is, to respect our customs, traditions & our laws. Doesn't matter if they arrive by boat or plane & it doesn't matter if they're from Sudan, Sri Lanka, England or New Zealand as long as they respect us.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:41 am

morell wrote:The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.


Usually they graduate to organised crime rather than integrate. Aren't the Lebanese now running one of the outlaw motorcycle groups.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Jimmy_041 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:34 am

Did the Sudanese actually come here by boats?
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby morell » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:59 am

Trader wrote:
morell wrote:The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.


So we should just accept it and let it happen for the next 25 years?
No not at all, get tough on crime, throw the book at anyone that does anything illegal. I don't even mind the anti-association laws.

There are plenty of ways to stop or mitigate youth crime.

"Closing the borders" to a certain ethnicity isn't one of them.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby morell » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:02 am

cracka wrote:
morell wrote:Absolutely I was. The entire premise of my posts was to highlight that Kiwi’s make up the largest proportion of people who face immigration issues.

Illegal immigration, immigrants who are staying here illegally, migrants undertaking illegal things, criminal migrants, non-Australian migrants doing illegal things - however the **** you want to ******* coin it, the point remains the same….

Which is - “stop the boats” and “Sudanese gangs” that type of rhetoric is simply dog whistle politics, based on the fact most people aren’t actually that concerned about protecting borders, but rather protecting borders against people that don’t look, sound or act like them. If they were just concerned about protecting borders from a safety and economic perspective, they would be welcoming people by boat, banning flights from New Zealand and removing the subclass Visa instead of sticking “**** off we’re full” stickers on their commodores.

Don't care what they look or sound like but totally expect them to act like us, that is, to respect our customs, traditions & our laws. Doesn't matter if they arrive by boat or plane & it doesn't matter if they're from Sudan, Sri Lanka, England or New Zealand as long as they respect us.
Couldn't agree more.

There also has to be some give and take in that though. As when it's all take, you get resentment which exacerbates these youths being disaffected.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby morell » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:06 am

cracka wrote:
morell wrote:The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.


Usually they graduate to organised crime rather than integrate. Aren't the Lebanese now running one of the outlaw motorcycle groups.
What, like the Italians, Greeks and Chinese? Wonder what Australia would be without them? Probably an utter backwater I'd say.

and really, out of the many dozen pure white bread bogan bikie gangs you pick the one Lebanese one as an example?

lets call it out, I am more "scared" of an angry Davoren Park ice head who is probably 4th generation tru blu aussie mahhhht than any immigrant.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:21 am

morell wrote:
cracka wrote:
morell wrote:Absolutely I was. The entire premise of my posts was to highlight that Kiwi’s make up the largest proportion of people who face immigration issues.

Illegal immigration, immigrants who are staying here illegally, migrants undertaking illegal things, criminal migrants, non-Australian migrants doing illegal things - however the **** you want to ******* coin it, the point remains the same….

Which is - “stop the boats” and “Sudanese gangs” that type of rhetoric is simply dog whistle politics, based on the fact most people aren’t actually that concerned about protecting borders, but rather protecting borders against people that don’t look, sound or act like them. If they were just concerned about protecting borders from a safety and economic perspective, they would be welcoming people by boat, banning flights from New Zealand and removing the subclass Visa instead of sticking “**** off we’re full” stickers on their commodores.

Don't care what they look or sound like but totally expect them to act like us, that is, to respect our customs, traditions & our laws. Doesn't matter if they arrive by boat or plane & it doesn't matter if they're from Sudan, Sri Lanka, England or New Zealand as long as they respect us.
Couldn't agree more.

There also has to be some give and take in that though. As when it's all take, you get resentment which exacerbates these youths being disaffected.
Abide by laws yes. Custom and tradition is ambiguous and fluid.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby morell » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:33 am

I do agree, and I would go as far as saying welcoming and including immigrants *is* Australian culture. "As long as they respect us" - is fair though, as that is what can snowball the other way.

No one has to down a meat pie and a beer in the outer at a suburban game of footy on day 5, but understanding that Anzac Day is important, we treat women as social equals - as two easy examples - isn't too much to ask, either.

Just takes time.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby bennymacca » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:42 am

Had this exact discussion with friends who are originally from India but have lived in the UK and are now Australian citizens. They are proud of their Indian heritage but they also have made a huge effort to become Australian too rather than just integrate only with the local Indian community and nobody else.

They celebrate their traditional festivals (even the Hindi ones, they are Punjabi) as well as celebrate Christmas.

Immigrants like them don’t just conform to Australian culture - they also bring a piece of their own culture and make Australia better for it.

Undoubtedly the Italians, Greeks, Chinese, Vietnamese etc have done this in the past, and I’m sure the Somalis, Afghans etc will do the same.

If we want them to take our values etc then it’s also on us to accept them when they do - and there are plenty of Australians who won’t do that regardless of how “aussie” the immigrants become
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby morell » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:46 am

Perfectly said Benny. As an immigrant - I've bought sick safooty skillz. You're welcome.

also, anyone who is against Afghan immigration needs to eat at Parwana.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:01 pm

morell wrote:
cracka wrote:
morell wrote:The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.


Usually they graduate to organised crime rather than integrate. Aren't the Lebanese now running one of the outlaw motorcycle groups.
What, like the Italians, Greeks and Chinese? Wonder what Australia would be without them? Probably an utter backwater I'd say.

and really, out of the many dozen pure white bread bogan bikie gangs you pick the one Lebanese one as an example?

lets call it out, I am more "scared" of an angry Davoren Park ice head who is probably 4th generation tru blu aussie mahhhht than any immigrant.

You mentioned the Lebanese first saying after a generation they more seamless integrate. If you'd have mentioned Dustin Martins dad I would have used him as the example.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:14 pm

morell wrote:
cracka wrote:
morell wrote:The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.


Usually they graduate to organised crime rather than integrate. Aren't the Lebanese now running one of the outlaw motorcycle groups.
What, like the Italians, Greeks and Chinese? Wonder what Australia would be without them? Probably an utter backwater I'd say.

and really, out of the many dozen pure white bread bogan bikie gangs you pick the one Lebanese one as an example?

lets call it out, I am more "scared" of an angry Davoren Park ice head who is probably 4th generation tru blu aussie mahhhht than any immigrant.

I'm just as scared by an angry Davoren Park ice head as I would be of an immigrant ice head.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:21 pm

cracka wrote:
morell wrote:
cracka wrote:
morell wrote:The point though, take any group of people that look sound and are different and place them somewhere where they don't fit in, you're gonna get crime.

Or you could just trust me when I say every single wave of immigrants has had it’s angry and disaffected youth (the Yellow Peril, the Lebanese Boy’s Crew et al) and it usually takes a generation or two before they more seamless integrate. It’s nothing out of the ordinary.


Usually they graduate to organised crime rather than integrate. Aren't the Lebanese now running one of the outlaw motorcycle groups.
What, like the Italians, Greeks and Chinese? Wonder what Australia would be without them? Probably an utter backwater I'd say.

and really, out of the many dozen pure white bread bogan bikie gangs you pick the one Lebanese one as an example?

lets call it out, I am more "scared" of an angry Davoren Park ice head who is probably 4th generation tru blu aussie mahhhht than any immigrant.

You mentioned the Lebanese first saying after a generation they more seamless integrate. If you'd have mentioned Dustin Martins dad I would have used him as the example.
They are seamlessly integrating... outlaw bikies gangs are an integral part of Australian culture [emoji6]
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:52 pm

morell wrote:
cracka wrote:
morell wrote:Absolutely I was. The entire premise of my posts was to highlight that Kiwi’s make up the largest proportion of people who face immigration issues.

Illegal immigration, immigrants who are staying here illegally, migrants undertaking illegal things, criminal migrants, non-Australian migrants doing illegal things - however the **** you want to ******* coin it, the point remains the same….

Which is - “stop the boats” and “Sudanese gangs” that type of rhetoric is simply dog whistle politics, based on the fact most people aren’t actually that concerned about protecting borders, but rather protecting borders against people that don’t look, sound or act like them. If they were just concerned about protecting borders from a safety and economic perspective, they would be welcoming people by boat, banning flights from New Zealand and removing the subclass Visa instead of sticking “**** off we’re full” stickers on their commodores.

Don't care what they look or sound like but totally expect them to act like us, that is, to respect our customs, traditions & our laws. Doesn't matter if they arrive by boat or plane & it doesn't matter if they're from Sudan, Sri Lanka, England or New Zealand as long as they respect us.
Couldn't agree more.

There also has to be some give and take in that though. As when it's all take, you get resentment which exacerbates these youths being disaffected.

Do you believe we don't give enough then or are these youths just little sh!ts no matter what we give them.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:11 pm

cracka wrote:Do you believe we don't give enough then or are these youths just little sh!ts no matter what we give them.


Why are young people in general drawn to acts of delinquency? It is worth reading the Sibling Study, addresses the underlying factors contributing to this.
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