The South Australian Political Landscape

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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby morell » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:57 am

jo172 wrote:
morell wrote:Maybe instead of attacking the failures of others they should come up with some ideas or plans themselves.


No.

There is no forgiving what's gone on with Child Protection, TAFE and Oakden in just this term of government.

It's lesser of two evils time.

And given two of the above mentioned three, evil is very much the literal sense.

I agree there is no forgiving what's gone on with those institutions.

I don't agree that all of the fault for that lays at the feet of the state government or that a Liberal government would do any better.

In fact, I think the way Labor has handled those disasters has been more than credible.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby MW » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:59 am

You can elect whoever you want into Government, but the same bureaucratic structure will be running Child Protection, TAFE and Oakden
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Booney » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:04 am

jo172 wrote:
morell wrote:Maybe instead of attacking the failures of others they should come up with some ideas or plans themselves.


No.

There is no forgiving what's gone on with Child Protection, TAFE and Oakden in just this term of government.

It's lesser of two evils time.

And given two of the above mentioned three, evil is very much the literal sense.


A complex state of affairs and I'm not defending the ministers here, but....there's countless bureaucrats earning significant money that are charged with the responsibility of "micro" managing these departments.

These people remain in their positions regardless of the minister (or party at times) over seeing the portfolio and they are the ones who are overseeing this mismanagement.

If they choose to keep these secrets from the minister then they're grossly negligent and they are the ones who need to be dealt with.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Booney » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:05 am

MW wrote:You can elect whoever you want into Government, but the same bureaucratic structure will be running Child Protection, TAFE and Oakden


I wasted two minutes typing ^ response.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby am Bays » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:06 am

Anyone here read the ICAC report and Chief Psychiatrist report on Oakden yet? they're interesting.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Booney » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:14 am

am Bays wrote:Anyone here read the ICAC report and Chief Psychiatrist report on Oakden yet? they're interesting.


Between posting on here and work ( in order of priority ) I haven't had the time, but I do intend to peruse it, yes.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby morell » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:30 am

MW and Booney - spot on.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby jo172 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:31 am

If we're to absolve Cabinet Ministers of any and all ministerial responsibility for their departments we might as well do away with responsible government and representative democracy.

To an extent some of the above posts reek of Trumpist "deep state" paranoia.

A good Minister is on top of their Department or alternatively fails to control it and resigns. Throwing your hands up and saying I was responsible for nothing in abhorrent.

It's worth comparing and contrasting Barry O'Farrell in NSW and his views on ministerial responsibility relative to the Rann/Weatherill governments.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby bennymacca » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:52 am

Ministers should definitely be held accountable for the failings of their departments, if it is deemed they could have done more. if the department is deliberately hiding info im not sure what the minister can do. havent read the report so not sure which of the above it is.

I was a little miffed at marshalls comments here though

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-28/i ... ed/9492008

"Labor has failed our most vulnerable citizens — they deserve to be sacked on March 17" - fair enough, he is entitled to say that, and it may well be true

"If anybody needs any proof whatsoever that this is the worst government in the state's history they can read about it today,"

really? the worst in history? what a load of rubbish. despite some clear failings as noted by the posters above, i dont think they have done that bad a job.

and what does that say about your own party given you havent been in government for 16 years, that you havent been able to knock off the "worst in history"

ive voted labor or independent most of my life but i feel like i could be wooed this year if there was a compelling case for it - but saying things like that doesnt endear me to Marshall.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby jo172 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:59 am

benny, read the report.

There is no suggestion of deliberately hiding information. More of a Minister too lazy to look it up.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby bennymacca » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:05 am

not sure ill have time to read the report, but ill see how i go

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-28/i ... ed/9492008

judging by this article the minister definitely could have done more.

not good enough imo. will be interesting to see what effect it has on the election
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby jo172 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:09 am

bennymacca wrote:not sure ill have time to read the report, but ill see how i go

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-28/i ... ed/9492008

judging by this article the minister definitely could have done more.

not good enough imo. will be interesting to see what effect it has on the election


That Vlahos maintained Weatherill's confidence after she failed to read the Chief Psychiatrist's report and did not arrange a meeting but "bumped into him at Bunnings Mile End" really shows you how slimy she was/is and how weak he was in dealing with her.

His hands were obviously tied by the factions but that no one did anything about her much earlier is both abhorrent, and astonishingly politically stupid.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby morell » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:13 am

jo172 wrote:If we're to absolve Cabinet Ministers of any and all ministerial responsibility for their departments we might as well do away with responsible government and representative democracy.

To an extent some of the above posts reek of Trumpist "deep state" paranoia.

A good Minister is on top of their Department or alternatively fails to control it and resigns. Throwing your hands up and saying I was responsible for nothing in abhorrent.

It's worth comparing and contrasting Barry O'Farrell in NSW and his views on ministerial responsibility relative to the Rann/Weatherill governments.
If nothing was done or there was a cover up, then put their heads on a spike.

But that hasn't happened. The State Government have actually been admirably ruthless with the administration of those institutions. They've sacked people and managed others out the door.

To be clear, it's not the role of the State Government to run those institutions, it's their role to direct them, fund them and when required act to get them back on track.

It's logistically, pragmatically and feasibly impossible to expect a Minister in charge of thousands and thousands of people and billions of dollars to ensure good governance 100% of the time. They put the people in those institutions to do that.

Your logic would actually see a reduction in governance quality, as no one would want to step up for fear of getting decapitated thanks to the incompetence of others, so you'd get a smaller marketplace to select talent from.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby morell » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:19 am

And to be even clearer...

The ICAC report cleared Vlahos of any and all maladministration. And yet she's no longer a Minister - I'd suggest at the behest of the Government.

Not sure what else anyone would want.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby jo172 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:24 am

morell wrote:And to be even clearer...

The ICAC report cleared Vlahos of any and all maladministration. And yet she's no longer a Minister - I'd suggest at the behest of the Government.

Not sure what else anyone would want.


The ICAC report cleared Vlahos of maladministration soleley because of the actions of Hanson.

Vlahos did not read the Chief Psychiatrist's report upon publication.

Vlahos did not consult with the Chief Psychiatrist upon publication..

Vlahos took a deliberate course of knowing and doing as little as possible. Vlahos continued to sit as a Weatherill Cabinet Minister over 12 months after these admissions. Weatherill was aware of this at all times.

Do you really think that was acceptable conduct? Really?

Vlahos, with Weatherill's tacit endorsement at the time, and outright endorsement yesterday conducted a deliberate strategy to know as little as possible to avoid taking responsibility. You'll also note from the Report that the Commissioner, somewhat surprisingly, takes a very narrow view on Ministerial responsibility relative to normal Westminster conventions.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby jo172 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:25 am

Also, as an aside, no point paying Abbott QC if you're not guilty as sin.

Furthermore, in the report both Hill and Snelling take some responsibility for what occurred at Oakden while they were the responsible Minister. Vlahos took none.

Who is wrong, Hill and Snelling or Vlahos?
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby morell » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:33 am

jo172 wrote:
morell wrote:And to be even clearer...

The ICAC report cleared Vlahos of any and all maladministration. And yet she's no longer a Minister - I'd suggest at the behest of the Government.

Not sure what else anyone would want.


The ICAC report cleared Vlahos of maladministration soleley because of the actions of Hanson.

Vlahos did not read the Chief Psychiatrist's report upon publication.

Vlahos did not consult with the Chief Psychiatrist upon publication..

Vlahos took a deliberate course of knowing and doing as little as possible. Vlahos continued to sit as a Weatherill Cabinet Minister over 12 months after these admissions. Weatherill was aware of this at all times.

Do you really think that was acceptable conduct? Really?

Vlahos, with Weatherill's tacit endorsement at the time, and outright endorsement yesterday conducted a deliberate strategy to know as little as possible to avoid taking responsibility. You'll also note from the Report that the Commissioner, somewhat surprisingly, takes a very narrow view on Ministerial responsibility relative to normal Westminster conventions.
No I don't think it's acceptable. I'm not defending Vlahos.

My point is, she's now gone. And rightfully so.

Perhaps a quicker timeframe to get to this outcome is a fair criticism, but knowing quite intimately how difficult those processes are to force through the layers of bureaucracy, it's not that suprising to me either. When you're removing people at that level, you have to, ironically, ensure good dilligance and governance. That takes time.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby jo172 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:42 am

morell wrote:
jo172 wrote:
morell wrote:And to be even clearer...

The ICAC report cleared Vlahos of any and all maladministration. And yet she's no longer a Minister - I'd suggest at the behest of the Government.

Not sure what else anyone would want.


The ICAC report cleared Vlahos of maladministration soleley because of the actions of Hanson.

Vlahos did not read the Chief Psychiatrist's report upon publication.

Vlahos did not consult with the Chief Psychiatrist upon publication..

Vlahos took a deliberate course of knowing and doing as little as possible. Vlahos continued to sit as a Weatherill Cabinet Minister over 12 months after these admissions. Weatherill was aware of this at all times.

Do you really think that was acceptable conduct? Really?

Vlahos, with Weatherill's tacit endorsement at the time, and outright endorsement yesterday conducted a deliberate strategy to know as little as possible to avoid taking responsibility. You'll also note from the Report that the Commissioner, somewhat surprisingly, takes a very narrow view on Ministerial responsibility relative to normal Westminster conventions.
No I don't think it's acceptable. I'm not defending Vlahos.

My point is, she's now gone. And rightfully so.

Perhaps a quicker timeframe to get to this outcome is a fair criticism, but knowing quite intimately how difficult those processes are to force through the layers of bureaucracy, it's not that suprising to me either. When you're removing people at that level, you have to, ironically, ensure good dilligance and governance. That takes time.


Barry O'Farrell resigned over a bottle of plonk in about 24 hours.

Joyce took a week over an affair.

Jamie Briggs a fortnight over an inappropriate night out.

All these blokes deserved to go and had enough introspection regarding Ministerial conduct to know that they had not met the standards of their office.

Regarding Joyce and Briggs they were more likely pushed by more senior members of the Government.

We all know the elephant in the room as to why action wasn't taken on Vlahos much much earlier. A left faction Premier governing by the consent of the right faction was not allowed to move on a prominent right faction cabinet minister. A factional dickholding content has exacerbated this problem and led to the decline of responsible government in SA.

If you want to get really conspiratorial this was a deliberate ploy by the Right Faction to weaken Weatherill and clear the field for Malinauskas who has the benefit of not being in parliament during these crises (albeit was the convenor of the right which preselected and protected Vlahos).
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby morell » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:45 am

Yeah I don't buy those theories. Occam's Razor and all that.

More likely is "fault" took time to determine and the processes involved to confirm the consequences of that fault also take time. Especially if said person is being difficult.
Last edited by morell on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby MW » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:45 am

but but but the other option is Steven Marshall....
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