Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Adelaide Footy League Talk

Who will win the D7 Grand Final?

Central United
12
16%
Flinders Uni
1
1%
Golden Grove
2
3%
Houghton
8
10%
Marion
13
17%
Mawson Lakes
5
6%
Mitchell Park
0
No votes
OSB Lonsdale
31
40%
St Pauls OS
3
4%
Tea Tree Gully
2
3%
 
Total votes : 77

Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby The Bedge » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:13 am

Down the Hill wrote:But the passion showed by the likes of Bedge, Morell etc. on SA Footy and the constant reference to some of the better players running around in these divisions only serves to inflate the ego and perceived value of blokes who would struggle to get a regular A grade game at many clubs or at least command no more than the base rate for an A grade game.

If a bloke wants to get an inflated ego over getting a mention on a footy forums by a stranger, then good luck to them.
If a club wants to believe that a player is worth any sort of incentive based on what is written on a D6 or D7 footy forum by a stranger then they need to get their heads looked at.

Lets also keep in perspective the division - if a bloke is dominating D7 and I don't know him personally, then i'm inclined to turn my nose up and point out to him it's D7 FFS.

Clubs who do take players from the same division tend to have seen them play the year before - I doubt references on here add much weight to their decision making.
Last edited by The Bedge on Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby morell » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:15 am

Nah I'm happy to blame you Bedge. Knock it off.
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby The Bedge » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:19 am

morell wrote:Nah I'm happy to blame you Bedge. Knock it off.

Your name was in there too Davey Warner
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby jo172 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:28 am

TEX07 wrote:
The Bedge wrote:
footyfan82 wrote:What big money? $50 a game? $100 a game. Its an unfortunate part of modern football. Even in div 7.

$100 a game i'd consider big money for D7.

However it is becoming more and more a part of modern football as you said, and the unfortunate reality is that unless clubs pay something to guys, it's hard to get recruits to the club, which makes it harder to get out of the lower divs, which makes everything harder.

The downside also is the higher you go, the more it costs if you want to keep up with the Jones's.


Are sides really paying players in Div7?
Wow - I guess we will have a tough year ahead. Guarantee none of our C grade players get anything to play.


A few years ago when our Cs had a (disastrous) year in D7 I remember briefly standing Wellington from Salisbury West who was fresh off a Crows Reserves Game and was being paid far more than anyone in our D1 A Grade.

Suffice to say he was a far far better footballer than me (not to say that's a hard task).
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby marbles » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 am

last year i played a game for Adelaide Lutheran against mitchell park playing at forward pocket they had a gun of a defender on me was far too good for the division told me he was getting 100 bucks a quarter and thanked me for the easy job i gave him
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby footyfan82 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:08 am

marbles wrote:last year i played a game for Adelaide Lutheran against mitchell park playing at forward pocket they had a gun of a defender on me was far too good for the division told me he was getting 100 bucks a quarter and thanked me for the easy job i gave him
Thats cant be right. They "only pay one player $50 a game, because he has to travel"

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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby morell » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:01 pm

footyfan82 wrote:
marbles wrote:last year i played a game for Adelaide Lutheran against mitchell park playing at forward pocket they had a gun of a defender on me was far too good for the division told me he was getting 100 bucks a quarter and thanked me for the easy job i gave him
Thats cant be right. They "only pay one player $50 a game, because he has to travel"

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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby marbles » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:15 pm

morell wrote:
footyfan82 wrote:
marbles wrote:last year i played a game for Adelaide Lutheran against mitchell park playing at forward pocket they had a gun of a defender on me was far too good for the division told me he was getting 100 bucks a quarter and thanked me for the easy job i gave him
Thats cant be right. They "only pay one player $50 a game, because he has to travel"

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footyfan you're new to these parts so I'll do you a solid.

marbles regularly and frequently extracts the urine. We love him but you need to treat his posts like you would a stand up comedian. Funny and entertaining, but not a whole lot of substance to them.


Theres plenty of substances in my urine :D :D =))
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby morell » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:11 pm

Anyway, this recent conversation has hit on a theme and a post I’ve been thinking about for a while. It's a long one, but I don't care.

What happened to our culture of truly local, representative, grass roots, amateur football? I feel like its snuck up on us, this new toxicity of player payments, mass recruitment, coaching roundabouts and ruthless playing groups. When I first started playing I was in awe of Trevor Bennetts, Joe Leck, Bernie Kusterman, Phil Pike and Ian Colquhoun - all Mitchell Park legends who had been there for many years, including through the juniors. Seriously tough men, fiercely loyal types who other than earning a BoG would have never even dreamt of taking payment for playing. For them the Club was an entity to be respected, it came first and the privilege of playing senior football, even at a lower level, was seen as exactly that – a privilege. Wal and Joe in particular taught me a lot, and for that, a young introverted nerd more used to bricking threes and talking trash than shanking drop punts, their introduction to the inner sanctum of a football club shaped many of my ideals – inside of that world and out.

One would get the feeling the Club was an escape for those guys, a place to talk about tits and cars, to confess their woes and maybe even look for support, to relax and unwind with no social pressure or pretentiousness. The Front Bar at Mitchell Park certainly provided all of that, but even then, there was still a Club first attitude, they’d wash the dishes, help the canteen staff, fill water bottles, sell raffle tickets, help out with admin – whatever it was, they would always do whatever they could to help out the Football Club. As they knew that The Club provided them with so muc more. And that is precisely the right word. *Club*. To use an Americanism - a fraternity.

I fell in love with it. Mitchell Park soon turned into my happy place too. My Church. I would go there all the time, often by myself just to walk around and clear my head sometimes to celebrate or commiserate or simply to catch up. It was so incredibly important to me as a young fella to have a place to garner an instant feel of comradery and acceptance. In that regard it was so different to basketball and rugby, my childhood sports, where it was more like a high society bitch fest than sporting coterie. It didn’t matter if you were a bogan or a hipster – acceptance was for all, provided you put the Club first. Cross that Club, and sure enough street justice was known to have been handed out on occasion. In a really strange way it was like a fully legal, crime free (sort of) drug free (sort of) motor cycle gang.

Now? In its 50th Anniversary year, it is very close to death. Down from a full suite of junior teams to one and a half. From having powerful senior sides across 3 grades in the strong SAFA to lucky to be filling one in Division 7. Yeah, we’ve pulled some strings every now and then and won a flag or two along the way, but none of the above is true of the Club anymore. There are a few hanging on, but we all know of the likely impending doom that awaits.

I really like what Down the Hill wrote. It is rather sad how clubs are forced to survive these days when they were originally established to provide a recreational outlet with organised competition for their local communities. It’s a precise observation and one that rings painfully true. We’re structured from the bottom to the top that way. Despite the cries of the ignorant, there really isn’t much we can do. Smart people all sitting around the table all trying their hardest for hours on end – but constantly hitting road blocks. Be it business wise with limited options for revenue thanks to outdated management models, be it due the shifting populations and demands, be it the club reputation that despite all contrary evidence, still hangs like bad smell. We’re check mated.

Perhaps one of the most galling things, however, is this latest offseason where last year’s promising group of players, coaches and administrators have abandoned us like rats down a sewerage crusted outlet pipe. I recall the season Luke McDonnell wanted to try playing for Happy Valley. He was physically emotional and struggled to confront the playing group. We understood and wished him all the best. He returned two years later and won a GF. These days? One of our better players who smashed our highest paid player record last year by a long way – took us for every last cent and then still asked for more when the Club was on the skins of its arse. Another player, who I love dearly, left because he felt he deserved to be playing A’s but got dropped a couple of times - the Club owed him, apparently. A young star and Premiership player, son of a gun and much loved member of our club off to a nearby rival, I assume because it looked like it might be a struggle with us. Our coach who promised cultural change and 3 years of effort left half way through his contract for promises and thin air after realising that it wasn’t going to be easy and instant success might not be on the cards. Our President, who made awful decision after awful decision, also left, without so much as even having the guts to rock up to our AGM to hand over the keys. Countless more who for a bit more petrol money have decided to knife the institution that would provide them with much more valuable things than cash, should they merely give it the chance. Then we have clubs like Adelaide Lutheran, smelling a fresh carcass like a circling vulture, messaging players on Social Media from our list in an attempt to poach them.

Poisonous stuff, that’s for sure. As most on here would know I am hyper analytical. I have a yearning to understand why. Are we at fault? Sometimes, but I don’t think that’s the answer. To me we’re experiencing the consequences of a far more macro movement. One of individualism, narcissism and a generation of people that put image first. For a Club like ours that is about the group, humility and substance, this is decidedly out of step. Examples of this can be found all over the place – the best players in Sporting Pulse? Caused huge issues amongst our playing group. Complaints about not making it or being 4th instead of 2nd, absolutely ridiculous stuff, I tried to explain, but it was important to them. Payments? Heck, even average footballers deserve it as they are putting their body on the line, so the club ought to look after them. Forget earning it through awards. They were entitled to it for merely rocking up. Doing a chore for the club? No chance, they do enough of that at home, football is a place to escape nagging, god damnit! But easily the biggest indicator is what happens when it looks like we might not win much. It is unbelievable how quickly people pike out. The modern amateur footballer is a jellyfish, if it’s not going to be “fun” and by fun, of course we mean winning, then they want no part of it. Countless players have said exactly that. They haven’t left, per se, they just don’t want to play because it will be too hard.

So at 35 with dodgy knees, crippled hands and countless surgeries on other broken bones, I came to the realisation at full forward on Saturday that I’m now out of touch with the modern game. It’s no longer about the Club or the comradery, it’s about the person looking back from the mirror. I hope we hold on, but we’re on the precipice.

Are we good? Are we any bloody good? Well, we sure used to be.
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby jo172 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:19 pm

Morell, that's a really good post and I hope to respond to it in more detail at a later stage.

There are some issues in your post that may be just Mitchell Park issues, some issues that would apply broadly to clubs in Mitchell Parks "sphere" (I realise that's condescending but I can't think of a particularly better way of putting it at quarter past 5) and some issues that apply more broadly to all Clubs across the state.

What particularly hit me is:

The Front Bar at Mitchell Park certainly provided all of that, but even then, there was still a Club first attitude, they’d wash the dishes, help the canteen staff, fill water bottles, sell raffle tickets, help out with admin – whatever it was, they would always do whatever they could to help out the Football Club. As they knew that The Club provided them with so muc more. And that is precisely the right word. *Club*. To use an Americanism - a fraternity.


This appears to me to be an endemic issue across all sporting clubs. I have no idea whether it's a symptom of a time poor society, a greater array of recreational options open to young men than in previous generations or generational apathy but there is an across the board (with exceptions) unwillingness for people to contribute more than the bare minimum in being a member of the Club despite the many benefits, both personal and collective that it brings.

It is an attitude shift that by its nature is going to cause seismic shifts in community sport, particularly when the current generation of volunteers dies out (generally baby-boomers and up).
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby whufc » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:03 pm

Your absolutely right Morrell

This is the one thing I loved about playing Union recently. It reminded me of the old skool Eastern Park days where as an A grader you still volunteered to work the canteen so Mrs Smith could watch her little johnny play juniors, we put the post pads on the goals and the flags in the corner. After a game we prided ourselves on cleaning the changerooms, helping serve the meals, cleaning the chairs etc as the last to leave the club rooms that night. It was a genuine community.

My small involvement in country sport leads to think there is still an element of this in clubs. Yes there is still the mercerises but the majority are there to be part and showcase their community. I was overwhelmed this year at my new cricket club with how many assisted with junior cricket which trained on a different night, played at different grounds. They just wanted to see the club succeed in the future and help built great men in their community.

I agree Morrell it's sad a lot of amateur clubs have lost that feeling
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby marbles » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:12 pm

^^^ This needs to be mailed to every letterbox 5kms from mp

And emailed to every mailbox within 500kms

A pamplet on every car parked at marion shops

Is marion hotel your sponsor? Theyd let u put a footballers wanted sign on marion rd surely?

I saw wayne weidemann at west lakes once championing a woody south juniors sign up drive. They then won about every flag for the next 5 years

Cultures have changed because were all consumed by our internet egos, massive debts and broken families ( creating broken immoral people ) lol
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby Q. » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:06 pm

Down the Hill wrote:Social media in particular SA Footy is part of the problem. The Div 6 and Div 7 forums are already up to 40 pages for 2018 and the season is still 10 days away. When I played Ammos it was exactly that - amateur. Although back in the late 80's some of the Div 1 and Div 2 clubs were clearly buying brown paper bags for more than the mixed lollies in the canteen. In those days, other than the scores in the Sunday Mail with best and goals for the A grades only, the only other vehicle for ones name getting a mention was a small write up in the Footy Times each week. But the passion showed by the likes of Bedge, Morell etc. on SA Footy and the constant reference to some of the better players running around in these divisions only serves to inflate the ego and perceived value of blokes who would struggle to get a regular A grade game at many clubs or at least command no more than the base rate for an A grade game. I don't know what the solution is because the clubs in the weakest country leagues are probably paying players similar to the stronger country leagues which equates much the same to paying players whether you are Div 1 or Div 7. But it's rather sad how clubs are forced to survive these days when they were originally established to provide a recreational outlet with organised competition for their local communities, with absolutely no intention of one day having to pay people to participate.


You realise that those two forums get so many posts because we all drink cans of solo with each other thanks to the social nature of lower division football that you assert doesn't exist.

Also clubs in these lower divisions are sometimes forced to offer incentive because higher division clubs dangle carrots in front of their better players. And guess what, you can still do that and provide a rewarding recreational outlet for all players.
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby Q. » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:24 pm

whufc wrote:Your absolutely right Morrell

This is the one thing I loved about playing Union recently. It reminded me of the old skool Eastern Park days where as an A grader you still volunteered to work the canteen so Mrs Smith could watch her little johnny play juniors, we put the post pads on the goals and the flags in the corner. After a game we prided ourselves on cleaning the changerooms, helping serve the meals, cleaning the chairs etc as the last to leave the club rooms that night. It was a genuine community.

My small involvement in country sport leads to think there is still an element of this in clubs. Yes there is still the mercerises but the majority are there to be part and showcase their community. I was overwhelmed this year at my new cricket club with how many assisted with junior cricket which trained on a different night, played at different grounds. They just wanted to see the club succeed in the future and help built great men in their community.

I agree Morrell it's sad a lot of amateur clubs have lost that feeling


For a while we have tried to instill a country club atmosphere into HDFC. Players are on a roster to do dishes, pack up changerooms, run water etc. and many now come out on Thursday afternoons to help with the junior side and auskick.

We didn't win a goddam game in the A's last year and we clearly lacked top end talent, but we still had great engagement at Thursday night selections, Saturday night presentations, club events etc - which has gone a long way to retaining everybody for this year
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby valleys07 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:46 pm

morell wrote:Anyway, this recent conversation has hit on a theme and a post I’ve been thinking about for a while. It's a long one, but I don't care.

What happened to our culture of truly local, representative, grass roots, amateur football? I feel like its snuck up on us, this new toxicity of player payments, mass recruitment, coaching roundabouts and ruthless playing groups. When I first started playing I was in awe of Trevor Bennetts, Joe Leck, Bernie Kusterman, Phil Pike and Ian Colquhoun - all Mitchell Park legends who had been there for many years, including through the juniors. Seriously tough men, fiercely loyal types who other than earning a BoG would have never even dreamt of taking payment for playing. For them the Club was an entity to be respected, it came first and the privilege of playing senior football, even at a lower level, was seen as exactly that – a privilege. Wal and Joe in particular taught me a lot, and for that, a young introverted nerd more used to bricking threes and talking trash than shanking drop punts, their introduction to the inner sanctum of a football club shaped many of my ideals – inside of that world and out.

One would get the feeling the Club was an escape for those guys, a place to talk about tits and cars, to confess their woes and maybe even look for support, to relax and unwind with no social pressure or pretentiousness. The Front Bar at Mitchell Park certainly provided all of that, but even then, there was still a Club first attitude, they’d wash the dishes, help the canteen staff, fill water bottles, sell raffle tickets, help out with admin – whatever it was, they would always do whatever they could to help out the Football Club. As they knew that The Club provided them with so muc more. And that is precisely the right word. *Club*. To use an Americanism - a fraternity.

I fell in love with it. Mitchell Park soon turned into my happy place too. My Church. I would go there all the time, often by myself just to walk around and clear my head sometimes to celebrate or commiserate or simply to catch up. It was so incredibly important to me as a young fella to have a place to garner an instant feel of comradery and acceptance. In that regard it was so different to basketball and rugby, my childhood sports, where it was more like a high society bitch fest than sporting coterie. It didn’t matter if you were a bogan or a hipster – acceptance was for all, provided you put the Club first. Cross that Club, and sure enough street justice was known to have been handed out on occasion. In a really strange way it was like a fully legal, crime free (sort of) drug free (sort of) motor cycle gang.

Now? In its 50th Anniversary year, it is very close to death. Down from a full suite of junior teams to one and a half. From having powerful senior sides across 3 grades in the strong SAFA to lucky to be filling one in Division 7. Yeah, we’ve pulled some strings every now and then and won a flag or two along the way, but none of the above is true of the Club anymore. There are a few hanging on, but we all know of the likely impending doom that awaits.

I really like what Down the Hill wrote. It is rather sad how clubs are forced to survive these days when they were originally established to provide a recreational outlet with organised competition for their local communities. It’s a precise observation and one that rings painfully true. We’re structured from the bottom to the top that way. Despite the cries of the ignorant, there really isn’t much we can do. Smart people all sitting around the table all trying their hardest for hours on end – but constantly hitting road blocks. Be it business wise with limited options for revenue thanks to outdated management models, be it due the shifting populations and demands, be it the club reputation that despite all contrary evidence, still hangs like bad smell. We’re check mated.

Perhaps one of the most galling things, however, is this latest offseason where last year’s promising group of players, coaches and administrators have abandoned us like rats down a sewerage crusted outlet pipe. I recall the season Luke McDonnell wanted to try playing for Happy Valley. He was physically emotional and struggled to confront the playing group. We understood and wished him all the best. He returned two years later and won a GF. These days? One of our better players who smashed our highest paid player record last year by a long way – took us for every last cent and then still asked for more when the Club was on the skins of its arse. Another player, who I love dearly, left because he felt he deserved to be playing A’s but got dropped a couple of times - the Club owed him, apparently. A young star and Premiership player, son of a gun and much loved member of our club off to a nearby rival, I assume because it looked like it might be a struggle with us. Our coach who promised cultural change and 3 years of effort left half way through his contract for promises and thin air after realising that it wasn’t going to be easy and instant success might not be on the cards. Our President, who made awful decision after awful decision, also left, without so much as even having the guts to rock up to our AGM to hand over the keys. Countless more who for a bit more petrol money have decided to knife the institution that would provide them with much more valuable things than cash, should they merely give it the chance. Then we have clubs like Adelaide Lutheran, smelling a fresh carcass like a circling vulture, messaging players on Social Media from our list in an attempt to poach them.

Poisonous stuff, that’s for sure. As most on here would know I am hyper analytical. I have a yearning to understand why. Are we at fault? Sometimes, but I don’t think that’s the answer. To me we’re experiencing the consequences of a far more macro movement. One of individualism, narcissism and a generation of people that put image first. For a Club like ours that is about the group, humility and substance, this is decidedly out of step. Examples of this can be found all over the place – the best players in Sporting Pulse? Caused huge issues amongst our playing group. Complaints about not making it or being 4th instead of 2nd, absolutely ridiculous stuff, I tried to explain, but it was important to them. Payments? Heck, even average footballers deserve it as they are putting their body on the line, so the club ought to look after them. Forget earning it through awards. They were entitled to it for merely rocking up. Doing a chore for the club? No chance, they do enough of that at home, football is a place to escape nagging, god damnit! But easily the biggest indicator is what happens when it looks like we might not win much. It is unbelievable how quickly people pike out. The modern amateur footballer is a jellyfish, if it’s not going to be “fun” and by fun, of course we mean winning, then they want no part of it. Countless players have said exactly that. They haven’t left, per se, they just don’t want to play because it will be too hard.

So at 35 with dodgy knees, crippled hands and countless surgeries on other broken bones, I came to the realisation at full forward on Saturday that I’m now out of touch with the modern game. It’s no longer about the Club or the comradery, it’s about the person looking back from the mirror. I hope we hold on, but we’re on the precipice.

Are we good? Are we any bloody good? Well, we sure used to be.


Bloody good post.
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby footyfan82 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:56 am

Marion within 2 goals of peake last night in their trial game. Mixure of A's and B's. Bring on round 1!!

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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby Fricky » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:17 am

jo172 wrote:Morell, that's a really good post and I hope to respond to it in more detail at a later stage.

There are some issues in your post that may be just Mitchell Park issues, some issues that would apply broadly to clubs in Mitchell Parks "sphere" (I realise that's condescending but I can't think of a particularly better way of putting it at quarter past 5) and some issues that apply more broadly to all Clubs across the state.

What particularly hit me is:

The Front Bar at Mitchell Park certainly provided all of that, but even then, there was still a Club first attitude, they’d wash the dishes, help the canteen staff, fill water bottles, sell raffle tickets, help out with admin – whatever it was, they would always do whatever they could to help out the Football Club. As they knew that The Club provided them with so muc more. And that is precisely the right word. *Club*. To use an Americanism - a fraternity.


This appears to me to be an endemic issue across all sporting clubs. I have no idea whether it's a symptom of a time poor society, a greater array of recreational options open to young men than in previous generations or generational apathy but there is an across the board (with exceptions) unwillingness for people to contribute more than the bare minimum in being a member of the Club despite the many benefits, both personal and collective that it brings.

It is an attitude shift that by its nature is going to cause seismic shifts in community sport, particularly when the current generation of volunteers dies out (generally baby-boomers and up).


I think this is what has made the local footy club struggle to survive in places. Gone are the days where the footy club was the only place your family went to on a Saturday, where the missus would come down and catch up with the other ladies, the golden oldies would sit at the bar on a Thursday night during training and be there for the A grade game on Saturday. Add to that people no longer live near the footy club, at least not in Walkerville, and this doesn't help keep the volunteer numbers up and a club running as smoothly as it use to.

Its great to see there are passionate people still around who want their club to succeed on and off the field
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby someguy1 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:32 am

Great post Morell. Flinders has had the same problem for years, can find a few players each year but have no way to keep them when the clubs in the area start circling. I don't blame the other clubs, they have the resources to do it and especially someone like Marion had no choice when trying to compete in the SFL (I used to play at Morphie Park when they were in the SFL, I know what they are up against.). The true amateur clubs don't have a place in the league anymore unfortunately, even in Div 7. I know Flinders would fit better into the C grades, most of the guys even the ones playing A grade are just there for a bit of fun with mates.

morell wrote:
Then we have clubs like Adelaide Lutheran, smelling a fresh carcass like a circling vulture, messaging players on Social Media from our list in an attempt to poach them.


A bunch of the Flinders A grade got the same message.
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby marbles » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:15 pm

Couldnt the flinders uni be mitchell parks b-grade
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Re: Adelaide Footy League Division 7 - 2018

Postby The Bedge » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:28 pm

marbles wrote:Couldnt flinders uni & mitchell parks be adel Lutheran's d-grade
Dolphin Treasure wrote:Your an attention seeking embarsement..
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