ATCA

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Re: ATCA

Postby Brumbies » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:29 pm

Trader wrote:My understanding is as follows:

Saturday lunch time, payneham enter the result as a forfeit.
Saturday afternoon, Heyzer changed the result to a draw (probably should be match abandoned, but that's a minor detail).
Sunday payneham lodged a submission with the turf requesting the result be returned to a forfeit.
Wednesday, Heyzer edited the result back to a forfeit.

To make things even more Interesting, he hasn't awarded them the full points that they would get for a forfeit.
IE: for a forfeit they should get the 18 points, plus those already earned, (10 wickets and 73 runs), which would give a total of 22.095
For whatever reason, the turf have said 22.095 is not appropriate, and adjusted it to 15.995, which is the equivalent of a win, 10 wickets and 199.33 runs, with no second innings.

If I were Pooraka, I'll be making an enquiry as to why the match hasn't been considered abandoned.


How the points were awarded is a bit unusual, but it's was an unusual situation so I guess they tried to come up with a what they thought was the most appropriate outcome.

In time they may look back and not be happy but I doubt the players are spending too much time worrying about the result at the moment.
We were always going to accept whatever the result was - technically we did forfeit anyway.
Hopefully it doesn't have an affect on what position we finish in.
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Re: ATCA

Postby jo172 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Having dealt with the PCC for a long time now I would suggest emotional intelligence to be one of their fortes.
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Re: ATCA

Postby heater31 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:15 pm

jo172 wrote:Having dealt with the PCC for a long time now I would suggest emotional intelligence to be one of their fortes.



Didn't a speaker at the 150 year celebrations last year refuse to clean up colourful language in story of years gone by in front of the entire crowd gathered? when confronted with messages of poor taste then refused to return to the stage to apologise?
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Re: ATCA

Postby jo172 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:16 pm

heater31 wrote:
jo172 wrote:Having dealt with the PCC for a long time now I would suggest emotional intelligence to be one of their fortes.



Didn't a speaker at the 150 year celebrations last year refuse to clean up colourful language in story of years gone by in front of the entire crowd gathered? when confronted with messages of poor taste then refused to return to the stage to apologise?


So I've heard. I also understand they were then asked to leave immediately.

A lot of good people there, just collectively some strange decisions are made/things occur.
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Re: ATCA

Postby tigerpie » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:44 pm

Wow I can't believe payneham are pushing a forfeit.
Match abandoned is a just result.
Utter disgrace if this is true and I hope the cricket gods sting them good.
Step up ATCA!
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Re: ATCA

Postby Tony Clifton » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:36 pm

Should Pooraka have offered the forfeit first?

Then the association make a ruling.

I think that was the sequence of events with the Crows/Walsh. Geelong then graciously chose to accept the AFL's verdict. My mind could be playing tricks on me.
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Re: ATCA

Postby tigerpie » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:37 pm

Tony Clifton wrote:Should Pooraka have offered the forfeit first?

Then the association make a ruling.

I think that was the sequence of events with the Crows/Walsh. Geelong then graciously chose to accept the AFL's verdict. My mind could be playing tricks on me.

If I was Pooraka president I would've rang paynehams pres and said we can't play due to the death of one of our players the night before.
Then left it up to paynehams president to decide on his conscience which way to go.
He's obviously made the call that they want the points. Very poor choice.
It shows zero respect for Pooraka so I hope their quicks get to bowl at them at some point in the near future and give them hell.

So much for the spirit of cricket at Payneham.
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Re: ATCA

Postby Tony Clifton » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:04 am

tigerpie wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:Should Pooraka have offered the forfeit first?

Then the association make a ruling.

I think that was the sequence of events with the Crows/Walsh. Geelong then graciously chose to accept the AFL's verdict. My mind could be playing tricks on me.

If I was Pooraka president I would've rang paynehams pres and said we can't play due to the death of one of our players the night before.
Then left it up to paynehams president to decide on his conscience which way to go.
He's obviously made the call that they want the points. Very poor choice.
It shows zero respect for Pooraka so I hope their quicks get to bowl at them at some point in the near future and give them hell.

So much for the spirit of cricket at Payneham.

Hang on - have Pooraka said that they want the split points though?

I know Payneham are being painted as the bad guy here but none of this is their doing and it wasn't a game starting from scratch. It was a game where they were in a very healthy position. For a club who barely survived relegation last season it's a delicate one.

ATCA had to take the lead here IMO. Not left it up to the clubs.

However I also feel for ATCA. Unprecedented situation. Not easy to come up with a swift ruling when there's no simple rule to go by and your first priority is support for the affected club/players who are living through this horrible situation.

But even if it was left as a TBA with a comment that the ATCA Executive would make a ruling on the result in due course that would have been better. Bought them some time too.
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Re: ATCA

Postby Trader » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:08 am

Tony Clifton wrote:It was a game where they (Payneham) were in a very healthy position. For a club who barely survived relegation last season it's a delicate one.


Payneham were 1/73 chasing 183 for victory.

Round 1 - were 1/35, bowled out for 62 - lost 9/27
Round 2 - were 1/74, bowled out for 152 - lost 9/78
Round 4 - were 1/37, bowled out for 143 - lost 9/106

Needing another 110, I'd suggest at best they were 50/50.

Tony Clifton wrote:I know Payneham are being painted as the bad guy here but none of this is their doing


When they approached the turf asking them to reconsider their ruling of a draw it 100% became Payneham's doing.
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Re: ATCA

Postby threestars » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:25 am

I feel incredibly sorry for Pooraka for their loss. However my question to everyone here is if the player was in a lower grade (B1-C2) would the result have been any different likewise would an opposition club "request" the win via forfeit. Fair to say, most clubs would accept the tragic situation, and send the opposition club their thoughts and regards.
Last edited by threestars on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATCA

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:26 am

Trader wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:It was a game where they (Payneham) were in a very healthy position. For a club who barely survived relegation last season it's a delicate one.


Payneham were 1/73 chasing 183 for victory.

Round 1 - were 1/35, bowled out for 62 - lost 9/27
Round 2 - were 1/74, bowled out for 152 - lost 9/78
Round 4 - were 1/37, bowled out for 143 - lost 9/106

Needing another 110, I'd suggest at best they were 50/50.

Tony Clifton wrote:I know Payneham are being painted as the bad guy here but none of this is their doing


When they approached the turf asking them to reconsider their ruling of a draw it 100% became Payneham's doing.


Wow, they are a damning set of stats that I wouldn't have considered researching, you're a very smart man @Trader.

Initially I was a fence sitter on this as I felt there was no right or wrong outcome and it seemed that Payneham were cruising to victory, perhaps not though.

If it were me, I would've let it ride as the players welfare far exceeds any result, I would've been just as devastated hearing the news of one of my opponents as much as I would've been if he were a team mate, the cricketing community is a tight knit group when it comes to times like these.
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Re: ATCA

Postby Tony Clifton » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:40 am

Trader wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:It was a game where they (Payneham) were in a very healthy position. For a club who barely survived relegation last season it's a delicate one.


Payneham were 1/73 chasing 183 for victory.

Round 1 - were 1/35, bowled out for 62 - lost 9/27
Round 2 - were 1/74, bowled out for 152 - lost 9/78
Round 4 - were 1/37, bowled out for 143 - lost 9/106

Needing another 110, I'd suggest at best they were 50/50.

Fair enough. Still in the balance then I guess. Certainly wouldn't take a draw from there though if you were Payneham.

Tony Clifton wrote:I know Payneham are being painted as the bad guy here but none of this is their doing


Trader wrote:When they approached the turf asking them to reconsider their ruling of a draw it 100% became Payneham's doing.

Had there been a ruling?

From the posts on here it sounds like Payneham just jumped onto MyCricket and selected forfeit, perhaps assuming that that was what the result was.

At the other end of things 'someone' (Pooraka?) has arked up saying that they should get half the points. Yet all the criticism is of Payneham.

This is why ATCA needs (needed) to make a definitive ruling. Shouldn't be up to the clubs in what is a particularly sensitive situation. Makes both the clubs look petty if they argue for points.
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Re: ATCA

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:05 pm

Tony Clifton wrote:Had there been a ruling?

From the posts on here it sounds like Payneham just jumped onto MyCricket and selected forfeit, perhaps assuming that that was what the result was.

At the other end of things 'someone' (Pooraka?) has arked up saying that they should get half the points. Yet all the criticism is of Payneham.

This is why ATCA needs (needed) to make a definitive ruling. Shouldn't be up to the clubs in what is a particularly sensitive situation. Makes both the clubs look petty if they argue for points.


Your first line was how I perceived it.

You're correct with the last line, it is a very delicate matter and would be magnified if it were the final round.
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Re: ATCA

Postby Trader » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:19 pm

Tony Clifton wrote:Had there been a ruling?

From the posts on here it sounds like Payneham just jumped onto MyCricket and selected forfeit, perhaps assuming that that was what the result was.

This is why ATCA needs (needed) to make a definitive ruling. Shouldn't be up to the clubs in what is a particularly sensitive situation. Makes both the clubs look petty if they argue for points.


As stated earlier:

Trader wrote:Saturday lunch time, payneham enter the result as a forfeit.
Saturday afternoon, Heyzer changed the result to a draw (probably should be match abandoned, but that's a minor detail).
Sunday payneham lodged a submission with the turf requesting the result be returned to a forfeit.
Wednesday, Heyzer edited the result back to a forfeit.


While insensitive, I can forgive Payneham entering the forfeit to start with. It's distasteful, but people can understand why they might have done so.

The turf ruled Saturday afternoon that it was a draw.

Payneham then complained. - this is the problem. This is exactly why people are outraged (but sadly not surprised).
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Re: ATCA

Postby Brumbies » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:05 pm

Tony Clifton wrote:
Trader wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:It was a game where they (Payneham) were in a very healthy position. For a club who barely survived relegation last season it's a delicate one.


Payneham were 1/73 chasing 183 for victory.

Round 1 - were 1/35, bowled out for 62 - lost 9/27
Round 2 - were 1/74, bowled out for 152 - lost 9/78
Round 4 - were 1/37, bowled out for 143 - lost 9/106

Needing another 110, I'd suggest at best they were 50/50.

Fair enough. Still in the balance then I guess. Certainly wouldn't take a draw from there though if you were Payneham.

Tony Clifton wrote:I know Payneham are being painted as the bad guy here but none of this is their doing


Trader wrote:When they approached the turf asking them to reconsider their ruling of a draw it 100% became Payneham's doing.

Had there been a ruling?

From the posts on here it sounds like Payneham just jumped onto MyCricket and selected forfeit, perhaps assuming that that was what the result was.

At the other end of things 'someone' (Pooraka?) has arked up saying that they should get half the points. Yet all the criticism is of Payneham.

This is why ATCA needs (needed) to make a definitive ruling. Shouldn't be up to the clubs in what is a particularly sensitive situation. Makes both the clubs look petty if they argue for points.


As I mentioned earlier we haven’t had a single discussion with either ATCA or Payneham about the result, nor do we intend to.
There has been no attempt to try and dispute the result and share the points.
I can’t speak for every individual player at Pooraka, but as a Club we have accepted the result and have moved on.

All these posts are just outside people giving their opinion on what they thought should have happened.
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Re: ATCA

Postby Tony Clifton » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:27 pm

Trader wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:Had there been a ruling?

From the posts on here it sounds like Payneham just jumped onto MyCricket and selected forfeit, perhaps assuming that that was what the result was.

This is why ATCA needs (needed) to make a definitive ruling. Shouldn't be up to the clubs in what is a particularly sensitive situation. Makes both the clubs look petty if they argue for points.


As stated earlier:

Trader wrote:Saturday lunch time, payneham enter the result as a forfeit.
Saturday afternoon, Heyzer changed the result to a draw (probably should be match abandoned, but that's a minor detail).
Sunday payneham lodged a submission with the turf requesting the result be returned to a forfeit.
Wednesday, Heyzer edited the result back to a forfeit.


While insensitive, I can forgive Payneham entering the forfeit to start with. It's distasteful, but people can understand why they might have done so.

The turf ruled Saturday afternoon that it was a draw.

Payneham then complained. - this is the problem. This is exactly why people are outraged (but sadly not surprised).

You're missing some key steps

The game got called off. Presumably Pooraka contacted ATCA and/or Payneham and said that their teams wouldn't be playing that weekend.

What was the understanding at that time of what the result would be? This is an unknown. Pooraka may have assumed it would be a draw. They may not have even worried about what the result was at that time - thoughts occupied with everything else.

Payneham may have assumed that Pooraka had conceded the game.

ATCA thought...?

Assumptions made about what the result would be. Everyone on a different wavelength with a different understanding about what had been agreed upon. The discussion about 'the result' may not have even occurred at that stage. Would seem callous to say "Thank you for the heads up about the tragedy and sorry for your loss. So... that count as a draw or what?"

After Payneham entered forfeit in MyCricket then something happened. That is the other unknown.

Who complained? Was it ATCA spotting it and saying hang on, that's not right? Or was it Pooraka spotting it and saying hang on, I thought we agreed on a draw?
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Re: ATCA

Postby helicopterking » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:18 pm

Stuart Coles from Woodville played at Woody South on Saturday.
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Re: ATCA

Postby get a grip » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:46 pm

Tony Clifton wrote:
Trader wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:Had there been a ruling?

From the posts on here it sounds like Payneham just jumped onto MyCricket and selected forfeit, perhaps assuming that that was what the result was.

This is why ATCA needs (needed) to make a definitive ruling. Shouldn't be up to the clubs in what is a particularly sensitive situation. Makes both the clubs look petty if they argue for points.


As stated earlier:

Trader wrote:Saturday lunch time, payneham enter the result as a forfeit.
Saturday afternoon, Heyzer changed the result to a draw (probably should be match abandoned, but that's a minor detail).
Sunday payneham lodged a submission with the turf requesting the result be returned to a forfeit.
Wednesday, Heyzer edited the result back to a forfeit.


While insensitive, I can forgive Payneham entering the forfeit to start with. It's distasteful, but people can understand why they might have done so.

The turf ruled Saturday afternoon that it was a draw.

Payneham then complained. - this is the problem. This is exactly why people are outraged (but sadly not surprised).

You're missing some key steps

The game got called off. Presumably Pooraka contacted ATCA and/or Payneham and said that their teams wouldn't be playing that weekend.

What was the understanding at that time of what the result would be? This is an unknown. Pooraka may have assumed it would be a draw. They may not have even worried about what the result was at that time - thoughts occupied with everything else.

Payneham may have assumed that Pooraka had conceded the game.

ATCA thought...?

Assumptions made about what the result would be. Everyone on a different wavelength with a different understanding about what had been agreed upon. The discussion about 'the result' may not have even occurred at that stage. Would seem callous to say "Thank you for the heads up about the tragedy and sorry for your loss. So... that count as a draw or what?"

After Payneham entered forfeit in MyCricket then something happened. That is the other unknown.

Who complained? Was it ATCA spotting it and saying hang on, that's not right? Or was it Pooraka spotting it and saying hang on, I thought we agreed on a draw?



Payneham entered the forfeit, ATCA noticed it and corrected it as they thought that it wasn't correct, Payneham the complained to ATCA to get a forfeit reinstated.

Don't know what was agreed between the two clubs.
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Re: ATCA

Postby no_remorse28 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:49 pm

I've waited a bit to post here



Poor form from payneham if you ask me

Shows a complete lack of respect to an absolute shattering occasion. If his own family were still finding out Friday evening I'd hate to think how late his team mates and club mates were finding out. To be expectant of them to play is ridiculous. To try and claim the forfeit is worse. It disrespects ATCA as an association, Pooraka as a club and Rocco as a person

These are extreme circumstances and I'd be embarrassed if it was my club. For me personally to see the efforts of clubs to show Pooraka and Rocco due respect via arm bands or a minute silence or how ever clubs expressed them selves was heart warming and his family was truly touched when I told them the lengths clubs went to honor him as well as what they seen on facebook or received directly via message

I walked taller when I was around him as did many and my memories will remain with me forever. , I'll miss ya for ever cousin and look forward to celebrating his life soon with his vast network of friends as well as with our family.
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Re: ATCA

Postby tigerpie » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:44 am

Wow we've had some weather!
Going to be a challenge getting wickets up this week unless the sun comes out soon.
Just emptied 16mm out of the gauge from overnight down south here.
Both wicket blocks are flooded.
Good luck curators?
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