Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby tigerpie » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:58 pm

I'm fairly certain freydenburg said last week, "there'll be no cash handouts like the labor party recklessly handed out during the GFC."
This mobs credibility has fallen past zero!
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby bulldogproud » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:02 pm

tigerpie wrote:I'm fairly certain freydenburg said last week, "there'll be no cash handouts like the labor party recklessly handed out during the GFC."
This mobs credibility has fallen past zero!


When pressed about the fact he was claiming having delivered a surplus (when it was only a budgeted surplus, not actually one in fruition), he also stated that he would unconditionally resign from politics completely if it was not delivered: solid guarantee.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:36 pm

cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
Jim05 wrote:We have had mandatory testing for years and it works fine, I can’t believe more businesses don’t do it.


Because it's expensive, dehumanising and pointless for most.

Being a truck driver we regularly get drug & alcohol tested. I've never felt dehumanised. I'd actually prefer more testing for drivers.


Because if you're impaired, you could potentially kill someone?!
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:02 pm

Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
Jim05 wrote:We have had mandatory testing for years and it works fine, I can’t believe more businesses don’t do it.


Because it's expensive, dehumanising and pointless for most.

Being a truck driver we regularly get drug & alcohol tested. I've never felt dehumanised. I'd actually prefer more testing for drivers.


Because if you're impaired, you could potentially kill someone?!

And so do people who are messed up on ice etc
Our office staff also get tested. 2 were sacked one time for positive results.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Magellan » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:42 pm

Jim05 wrote:We have had mandatory testing for years and it works fine, I can’t believe more businesses don’t do it.

There's a big difference between the private sector and the government doing drug testing.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Jimmy_041 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:55 pm

Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
Jim05 wrote:
Because it's expensive, dehumanising and pointless for most.

Being a truck driver we regularly get drug & alcohol tested. I've never felt dehumanised. I'd actually prefer more testing for drivers.


Because if you're impaired, you could potentially kill someone?!

And so do people who are messed up on ice etc
Our office staff also get tested. 2 were sacked one time for positive results.


My heart bleeds for the dehumanised. If one life is saved then suck it up princess. You choose the consequences. Your victims don’t get that luxury
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:50 pm

cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:Being a truck driver we regularly get drug & alcohol tested. I've never felt dehumanised. I'd actually prefer more testing for drivers.


Because if you're impaired, you could potentially kill someone?!

And so do people who are messed up on ice etc
Our office staff also get tested. 2 were sacked one time for positive results.


Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:23 pm

Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:Being a truck driver we regularly get drug & alcohol tested. I've never felt dehumanised. I'd actually prefer more testing for drivers.


Because if you're impaired, you could potentially kill someone?!

And so do people who are messed up on ice etc
Our office staff also get tested. 2 were sacked one time for positive results.


Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.
Last edited by cracka on Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:35 pm

cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.


Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:39 pm

Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.


Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving.

So getting into drugs isn't a lifestyle choice :roll:
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:06 pm

Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.


Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving
.

No, you were saying its dehumanising to drug test people in the workplace but its ok to drug test me because I'm a driver. Well without looking for any statistics, I'm pretty sure most drug takers also drive.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:10 pm

cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.


Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving.

So getting into drugs isn't a lifestyle choice :roll:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22301321

Addiction to drugs is a major contemporary public health issue, characterized by maladaptive behavior to obtain and consume an increasing amount of drugs at the expense of the individual's health and social and personal life. We discovered abnormalities in fronto-striatal brain systems implicated in self-control in both stimulant-dependent individuals and their biological siblings who have no history of chronic drug abuse; these findings support the idea of an underlying neurocognitive endophenotype for stimulant drug addiction.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:13 pm

cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.


Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving
.

No, you were saying its dehumanising to drug test people in the workplace but its ok to drug test me because I'm a driver. Well without looking for any statistics, I'm pretty sure most drug takers also drive.


If you drive drink/drug drive you are statistically more likely to have an accident and injure/kill other people (especially in a truck). That's why people are drug and alcohol tested for driving.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:27 pm

It would be worth reading this ANCD review of drug testing:

http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/clac_ctte/estimates/bud_1718/Social_Services/tabled_docs/TD_4.pdf

This section provides a brief outline of the conceptual framework used in this paper to consider the ethical and legal issues involved with drug testing. We begin by recognising that drug testing imposes a burden on those individuals who undergo it. This burden is at least partly, and perhaps largely, constituted by a violation of those individuals’ privacy. Drug testing violates privacy in the senses of individuals’ bodily privacy, and privacy of information.

The right to privacy has been argued to be central to the fundamental values of liberal democracies, and legal analyses have derived privacy rights from commitments to democratic principles in Australia (Roche et al. 2008). Ethical analyses have also indicated the central role of privacy in democratic societies: respect for privacy has been analysed in terms of recognition of and respect for personhood; respect for individual agency; and the capacity of individuals to maintain their various relationships with others (Rachels 1975; Benn 1980; Reiman 1976). Bodily and information privacy are protected by law in Australia, including by laws relating to information privacy, assault and trespass, and defamation (Roche et al. 2008).

In recognising that drug testing does involve a violation of privacy, the ANCD also acknowledges that individuals’ privacy rights are routinely regarded as being overridden by other concerns in various situations, and that our expectations of privacy differ by context. For instance, particular individuals’ right to privacy is overridden in some situations by the needs of public safety. This explains, for example, why random drug and alcohol testing of drivers is acceptable and why drug testing of airline pilots (and others in safety-sensitive positions) is more acceptable than of other employees.
Last edited by Q. on Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Jimmy_041 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:31 pm

cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.


Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving
.

No, you were saying its dehumanising to drug test people in the workplace but its ok to drug test me because I'm a driver. Well without looking for any statistics, I'm pretty sure most drug takers also drive.


They certainly shouldn’t be drug testing the Mums dropping off 3 kids at school in the morning.
Testing positive in front of their kids is very dehumanising.
I must be ignorant as well
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:38 pm

Jimmy_041 wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving
.

No, you were saying its dehumanising to drug test people in the workplace but its ok to drug test me because I'm a driver. Well without looking for any statistics, I'm pretty sure most drug takers also drive.


They certainly shouldn’t be drug testing the Mums dropping off 3 kids at school in the morning.
Testing positive in front of their kids is very dehumanising.
I must be ignorant as well


Finally, we agree on something
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby cracka » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:32 pm

cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:
cracka wrote:
Q. wrote:Punishing people for having an addiction doesn't make the addiction magically disappear. Treating it from a health perspective is a far more successful intervention.

So if I have an addiction (lifestyle choice) then I shouldn't be tested & it's ok for me to drive.


Lifestyle choice? Jesus you're ignorant.

I'm not talking about drink/drug driving.

So getting into drugs isn't a lifestyle choice :roll:

Q. wrote:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22301321

Addiction to drugs is a major contemporary public health issue, characterized by maladaptive behavior to obtain and consume an increasing amount of drugs at the expense of the individual's health and social and personal life. We discovered abnormalities in fronto-striatal brain systems implicated in self-control in both stimulant-dependent individuals and their biological siblings who have no history of chronic drug abuse; these findings support the idea of an underlying neurocognitive endophenotype for stimulant drug addiction.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3047254/

In Addiction: A disorder of choice Gene Heyman makes a case for drug addiction to be a result of natural processes involving voluntary (i.e., operant) behavior, specifically choice
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Trader » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:32 pm

Q, you seem to focus on the fact they are addicted and that they no longer have a choice to stop, and while that might be true, many others look at the fact they made the choice to start.

Someone who has never had ice before, isn't addicted to ice.

Call me narrow minded, call me sheltered or ignorant or whatever term you come up with next, but I have yet to hear a good reason why these addicts should get a free pass for the choice they made when they first started taking the drug.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:44 pm

cracka wrote:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3047254/

In Addiction: A disorder of choice Gene Heyman makes a case for drug addiction to be a result of natural processes involving voluntary (i.e., operant) behavior, specifically choice


That is a review of a book that is over ten years old and makes no account for the recent decade of neuroscience and animal models of addiction that support addiction as a compulsion or chronic disease and point to the demonstrated role of genetic or neurophysiological factors in addiction.
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Re: Abbott/Liberal Govt Watch

Postby Q. » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Trader wrote:Q, you seem to focus on the fact they are addicted and that they no longer have a choice to stop, and while that might be true, many others look at the fact they made the choice to start.

Someone who has never had ice before, isn't addicted to ice.

Call me narrow minded, call me sheltered or ignorant or whatever term you come up with next, but I have yet to hear a good reason why these addicts should get a free pass for the choice they made when they first started taking the drug.


Image

Someone who has never drunk alcohol before, doesn't become an alcoholic. We should all stop drinking beer then.

We are digressing. Drug testing of welfare recipients has been thoroughly reviewed:

"There is no evidence that drug testing welfare beneficiaries will have any positive effects for those individuals or for society, and some evidence indicating such a practice could have high social and economic costs. In addition, there would be serious ethical and legal problems in implementing such a program in Australia. Drug testing of welfare beneficiaries ought not be considered."

There's no evidence to suggest that the majority of welfare recipients are drug users, let alone drug addicts. Painting them as such is part of a false paradigm.

The only reason a Government would ever implement drug testing of welfare recipients is to funnel public (taxpayer) money into the hands of private contractors, just as was done with offshore detention and as is planned with the Indue card.
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