Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby whufc » Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:32 pm

Spargo wrote:
whufc wrote:Agree it was heartening to see Carey go after the next chance which ended up falling short but he had a real crack at it.

For mine Carey’s batting is never going to be test standard, would love to be wrong but I just can’t see him standing up when needed. No surprise is best innings came when were 5/290, every other innings he has failed.

I just feel if his going to average 25 (averaging 17 at the moment) with the bat his going to need to be seriously good with the gloves on which he hasn’t been so far.

F#ck me, how many tests has he played again?


Time might not be on his side especially given their is talk Paine may be looking to make a comeback towards the end of this shield year with Tasmania with an eye to be available for selection in our next overseas tour where it will be less of a distraction.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Spargo » Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:56 pm

whufc wrote:
Spargo wrote:
whufc wrote:Agree it was heartening to see Carey go after the next chance which ended up falling short but he had a real crack at it.

For mine Carey’s batting is never going to be test standard, would love to be wrong but I just can’t see him standing up when needed. No surprise is best innings came when were 5/290, every other innings he has failed.

I just feel if his going to average 25 (averaging 17 at the moment) with the bat his going to need to be seriously good with the gloves on which he hasn’t been so far.

F#ck me, how many tests has he played again?


Time might not be on his side especially given their is talk Paine may be looking to make a comeback towards the end of this shield year with Tasmania with an eye to be available for selection in our next overseas tour where it will be less of a distraction.


He’s twice the keeper Paine was & has no baggage.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:07 pm

whufc wrote:Agree it was heartening to see Carey go after the next chance which ended up falling short but he had a real crack at it.

For mine Carey’s batting is never going to be test standard, would love to be wrong but I just can’t see him standing up when needed. No surprise is best innings came when were 5/290, every other innings he has failed.

I just feel if his going to average 25 (averaging 17 at the moment) with the bat his going to need to be seriously good with the gloves on which he hasn’t been so far.

So since you don't rate Carey at all which wicket keeper in state cricket do you think should be in the test team then?
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby whufc » Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:52 am

The Dark Knight wrote:
whufc wrote:Agree it was heartening to see Carey go after the next chance which ended up falling short but he had a real crack at it.

For mine Carey’s batting is never going to be test standard, would love to be wrong but I just can’t see him standing up when needed. No surprise is best innings came when were 5/290, every other innings he has failed.

I just feel if his going to average 25 (averaging 17 at the moment) with the bat his going to need to be seriously good with the gloves on which he hasn’t been so far.

So since you don't rate Carey at all which wicket keeper in state cricket do you think should be in the test team then?


Honest answer is we seriously struggle at the keeper position but for mine I really like Josh Phillipee.

Is improving dramatically each year and at 24 years old is only going to get better. Only one first class ton short of Carey despite playing 25 less games. Has learnt the art of patience, going at a 50 strike rate in the shield shows me he can bat at different paces knowing his T20 quality as well. Averaging 54 this year as well so in form compared to Carey who has come into the side completely out of form.

Can’t say I’ve watched him keep for extended periods but has taken some very good catches this year looking at the wickets on the CA app. Unless he did a Buttler I reckon he would have taken every catch Carey has taken so far.

Check out his catches against Queensland where they made 129 and 246, the ones to dismiss Labuschagne and Pierson absolute stunners, very similar to the ones Carey didn’t even go for
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Armchair expert » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:10 am

Phillipe is the backup keeper for WA
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby whufc » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:47 am

Armchair expert wrote:Phillipe is the backup keeper for WA


Yeah to Josh Inglis.

I think Phillipe batting is better and only going to improve and his keeping isn't that much worse than Inglis……...take a look at his catches this year, his no mug.

For mine the importance of the quality of keeping in Australia is nullified a fair bit due to our conditions. 75% of the time keeping to pacemen with beautiful carry and limited swing. Look at Careys performances for example, he took about 10 catches we would expect every keeper in Australia to make, hasn't had any stumping opportunities or catches of the spinner so hard for any keeper to do wrong there. Carey has done the basics beautifully but has only been required to do what we would have expected every keeper in Australia to complete. The four 50/50 chances he has had off the pacemen he has missed.

I agree on the sub continent the need for the best keeper is amplified with so many half wicket chances falling to the keeper through little edges and half stumping chances. You could almost make a case in the UK as well with the significant swing and at times lower bounce but in Australia you can pick your best bat provided the keeper isn't a Joss Buttler operator.

Look at the last series versus India. It was Pants batting ability that won them the series. We had Paine who was serviceable with the bat and they had Pant who can be a match winner. He won them games......neither won them the series because of their keeping but one did because of his batting.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Lightning McQueen » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:59 am

whufc wrote:
Armchair expert wrote:Phillipe is the backup keeper for WA


Yeah to Josh Inglis.

I think Phillipe batting is better and only going to improve and his keeping isn't that much worse than Inglis……...take a look at his catches this year, his no mug.

For mine the importance of the quality of keeping in Australia is nullified a fair bit due to our conditions. 75% of the time keeping to pacemen with beautiful carry and limited swing. Look at Careys performances for example, he took about 10 catches we would expect every keeper in Australia to make, hasn't had any stumping opportunities or catches of the spinner so hard for any keeper to do wrong there. Carey has done the basics beautifully but has only been required to do what we would have expected every keeper in Australia to complete. The four 50/50 chances he has had off the pacemen he has missed.

I agree on the sub continent the need for the best keeper is amplified with so many half wicket chances falling to the keeper through little edges and half stumping chances. You could almost make a case in the UK as well with the significant swing and at times lower bounce but in Australia you can pick your best bat provided the keeper isn't a Joss Buttler operator.

Look at the last series versus India. It was Pants batting ability that won them the series. We had Paine who was serviceable with the bat and they had Pant who can be a match winner. He won them games......neither won them the series because of their keeping but one did because of his batting.


I think blokes like Gilchrist and Dhoni raised the bar so high we now have unrealistic expectations for keepers.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Lightning McQueen » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:04 am

stampy wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
stampy wrote:poms win the session.

Steve Smith hasnt been the same since getting hit by Archer.

Under pressure for virtually the first time in the series, interesting to see how we respond
Smith hasn't been the same since getting hit by Archer?
He literally made a double century (211) and 82 in the next match he played, (the forth test in the 2019 Ashes), didn't seem to be impacted by Archer then and then made 80 in the first innings of the fifth test where Archer took 6/62.

Neil Wagner was the one that started to really dry his runs up with his bowling plans to Smith having great success during the 19/20 Aus v NZ series. Ravi Ashwin also had some success drying Smith up last summer but Smith was able to get runs in Sydney making 131 and 81.



yeah yeah yeah, got howled down elsewhere as well my observation is wrong :oops: :oops:


I'll support your opinion to some degree, he hasn't been the same when fronting genuine raw pace, Archer rattled him. He was on fire leading up til then, batted with flair and at a decent rate.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby whufc » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:16 am

Lightning McQueen wrote:
whufc wrote:
Armchair expert wrote:Phillipe is the backup keeper for WA


Yeah to Josh Inglis.

I think Phillipe batting is better and only going to improve and his keeping isn't that much worse than Inglis……...take a look at his catches this year, his no mug.

For mine the importance of the quality of keeping in Australia is nullified a fair bit due to our conditions. 75% of the time keeping to pacemen with beautiful carry and limited swing. Look at Careys performances for example, he took about 10 catches we would expect every keeper in Australia to make, hasn't had any stumping opportunities or catches of the spinner so hard for any keeper to do wrong there. Carey has done the basics beautifully but has only been required to do what we would have expected every keeper in Australia to complete. The four 50/50 chances he has had off the pacemen he has missed.

I agree on the sub continent the need for the best keeper is amplified with so many half wicket chances falling to the keeper through little edges and half stumping chances. You could almost make a case in the UK as well with the significant swing and at times lower bounce but in Australia you can pick your best bat provided the keeper isn't a Joss Buttler operator.

Look at the last series versus India. It was Pants batting ability that won them the series. We had Paine who was serviceable with the bat and they had Pant who can be a match winner. He won them games......neither won them the series because of their keeping but one did because of his batting.


I think blokes like Gilchrist and Dhoni raised the bar so high we now have unrealistic expectations for keepers.


Deadset you almost couldn't make it up but apart from de Kock the test rankings directly align to the keepers batting averages. Make of it what you will...….yes im bored in isolation. :lol:

IND- Pant 39.71
NZ- BJ Watling 37.52
AUS- Paine 32.64
ENG- Buttler 32.53
PAK- Das 32.29
SAF- De Kock 39
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby David Brent » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:18 am

Lightning McQueen wrote:
stampy wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
stampy wrote:poms win the session.

Steve Smith hasnt been the same since getting hit by Archer.

Under pressure for virtually the first time in the series, interesting to see how we respond
Smith hasn't been the same since getting hit by Archer?
He literally made a double century (211) and 82 in the next match he played, (the forth test in the 2019 Ashes), didn't seem to be impacted by Archer then and then made 80 in the first innings of the fifth test where Archer took 6/62.

Neil Wagner was the one that started to really dry his runs up with his bowling plans to Smith having great success during the 19/20 Aus v NZ series. Ravi Ashwin also had some success drying Smith up last summer but Smith was able to get runs in Sydney making 131 and 81.



yeah yeah yeah, got howled down elsewhere as well my observation is wrong :oops: :oops:


I'll support your opinion to some degree, he hasn't been the same when fronting genuine raw pace, Archer rattled him. He was on fire leading up til then, batted with flair and at a decent rate.


Since the Archer game Smith has made 878 runs at an average of 39.91%, so you are right in saying he has been down on his previous impeccable record. He has had the elbow injury through this time as well & I don't think we can realistically expect him to average 60+ forever.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby am Bays » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:28 am

whufc wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
whufc wrote:Agree it was heartening to see Carey go after the next chance which ended up falling short but he had a real crack at it.

For mine Carey’s batting is never going to be test standard, would love to be wrong but I just can’t see him standing up when needed. No surprise is best innings came when were 5/290, every other innings he has failed.

I just feel if his going to average 25 (averaging 17 at the moment) with the bat his going to need to be seriously good with the gloves on which he hasn’t been so far.

So since you don't rate Carey at all which wicket keeper in state cricket do you think should be in the test team then?


Honest answer is we seriously struggle at the keeper position but for mine I really like Josh Phillipee.



See this is where you lost me.

As a crap keeper who knows all the errors of bad keeping having perfected them ;) and being exposed when I kept to Warney once (that's another story)

I believe we havent been this blessed for wicket keeping talent right now since the late 80s and mid to late 90s.

I think right now anyone from the likes of Carey, Inglis, Phillipe, Pierson Harper could be given the gloves for Australia and do a really good job. That's not even including the likes of Whiteman, Neville, and Wade who are also good 'keepers too.

We are super blessed in keeping talent right now. If only we had that luxury with our batting stocks

Carey is the best option right now in terms of hands, temperament, batting and leadership IMO. However the pressure is on to perform as Inglis, Pierson and Phillipe are are all valid option as well. Why I think Carey is the best is because he is the best catcher of the ball of the lot. He has the softest hands and purest technique IMO. His problem is because of his size he sometimes comes up that fraction too early (has improved markedly in the last four years when he would get beaten on low balls in the Big bash) which limits his footwork/balance which in turn limits his range. In the 2nd innings after that miss he stayed lower and in turn improved his range behind the stumps.

Paine is done Carey will get 3-4 years at it before the likes of Inglis (most likely) or Harper take over given they are 1st choices for their state. Phillipe needs to move states (sty in NSW and keep in the Shield if he wants to keep for Australia.

Carey is the best ATM but there is pack forming behind him so he needs to stay on the rivet and perform. His best is better than the rest IMO.
Last edited by am Bays on Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:28 am

whufc wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
whufc wrote:Agree it was heartening to see Carey go after the next chance which ended up falling short but he had a real crack at it.

For mine Carey’s batting is never going to be test standard, would love to be wrong but I just can’t see him standing up when needed. No surprise is best innings came when were 5/290, every other innings he has failed.

I just feel if his going to average 25 (averaging 17 at the moment) with the bat his going to need to be seriously good with the gloves on which he hasn’t been so far.

So since you don't rate Carey at all which wicket keeper in state cricket do you think should be in the test team then?


Honest answer is we seriously struggle at the keeper position but for mine I really like Josh Phillipee.

Is improving dramatically each year and at 24 years old is only going to get better. Only one first class ton short of Carey despite playing 25 less games. Has learnt the art of patience, going at a 50 strike rate in the shield shows me he can bat at different paces knowing his T20 quality as well. Averaging 54 this year as well so in form compared to Carey who has come into the side completely out of form.

Can’t say I’ve watched him keep for extended periods but has taken some very good catches this year looking at the wickets on the CA app. Unless he did a Buttler I reckon he would have taken every catch Carey has taken so far.

Check out his catches against Queensland where they made 129 and 246, the ones to dismiss Labuschagne and Pierson absolute stunners, very similar to the ones Carey didn’t even go for

Phillippe looks to be the future Australian keeper as the Australian selectors have obviously been keen to fast track him into the T20 and ODI teams but that hasn't really worked out so far, he was not up to international standard at those points in time. He still has to play more red ball cricket to prove he can play and be successful in the longer format and he got a big opportunity in the first half of the Shield season with Inglis being in the T20 WC squad to play as a wicket-keeper batsman and took full advantage. Will be interesting to see if he or Inglis keeps for WA moving forward.

Phillippe may be another guy (like Carey and many others) that first play for Australia in the ODI and T20 sides, get the exposure to international cricket then progress into the test team. At the moment he's not ready IMO but he's certainly not doing his chances any harm, just needs to keep doing well for WA.

As for struggling with the keeper position, I can't say I agree. You've named a guy in Phillippe that is the current second best keeper for his state, there's quite a few of other keepers in state cricket that could of made a claim for the test spot before Carey was named. (Like AMbays mentioned above).


Carey obviously had the exposure to international cricket prior to his test debut so he was the most logical option to play in the Ashes.
Last edited by The Dark Knight on Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Lightning McQueen » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:29 am

David Brent wrote:
Since the Archer game Smith has made 878 runs at an average of 39.91%, so you are right in saying he has been down on his previous impeccable record. He has had the elbow injury through this time as well & I don't think we can realistically expect him to average 60+ forever.

He did score 211 of them runs on his return game too, which Archer played in.

I think he bats with more caution nowadays which obviously hinders his scoring rate, they seam to be able to wear him down which was something that no one could do prior.

I'd prefer Marnus to be living in Smith's shadow not the other way around.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby whufc » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:32 am

Smith is still doing well but if there is one chink in the armour it seems to be to the constant short pitched bowling.

Archer hit him, NZ then worked him over with it and Eng seem to be getting his wicket at the other end from Stokes bowling short at him.

In fairness to Smith playing the short ball constantly is probably the hardest task in cricket. It's fine to be good at the short ball when they have a regulation field and only 1-2 out on the leg side and none out on the off. Completely different story though when you have 2 deep on the leg and one deep third man, probably the hardest shots in cricket to control.

Its no surprise bodyline worked for Bradman eg he averaged less then his career average and it appears to be one way to limit Smith as well albeit he still gets a pass with a near on 40 average but its not 60 odd average.

Its also no surprise teams are unashamedly going to it a bit more now as a genuine tactic when a batsmen gets on top. I think we will see more and more of it in future years unless there is further rule changes.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Lightning McQueen » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:36 am

am Bays wrote:
See this is where you lost me.

As a crap keeper who knows all the errors of bad keeping having perfected them ;) and being exposed when I kept to Warney once (that's another story)

I believe we havent been this blessed for wicket keeping talent right now since the late 80s and mid to late 90s.

I think right now anyone from the likes of Carey, Inglis, Phillipe, Pierson Harper could be given the gloves for Australia and do a really good job. That's not even including the likes of Whiteman, Neville, and Wade who are also good 'keepers too.

We are super blessed in keeping talent right now. If only we had that luxury with our batting stocks

Carey is the best option right now in terms of hands, temperament, batting and leadership IMO. However the pressure is on to perform as Inglis, Pierson and Phillipe are are all valid option as well. Why I think Carey is the best is because he is the best catcher of the ball of the spot. he ahs the softest hands and purest technique IMO. His problem is because of his size he sometimes comes up that fraction too early (has improved markedly in the last four years when he would get beaten on low balls in the Big bash) which limits his footwork/balance which in turn limits his range. In the 2nd innings after that miss he stayed lower and in turn improved his range behind the stumps.

Paine is done Carey will get 3-4 years at it before the likes of Inglis (most likely) or Harper take over given they are 1st choices for their state. Phillipe needs to move states (sty in NSW and keep in the Shield if he wants to keep for Australia.

Carey is the best ATM but there is pack forming behind him so he needs to stay on the rivet and perform. His best is better than the rest IMO.


Totally agree, Paine will never get close to a look in, I think CA failed him to some degree and realized this could be an exit plan playing a weakened Pommy outfit, at the end of the day our 4 next best keepers could've matched Paine's output with the bat or behind the stumps.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby RB » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:37 am

Remember with Smith that he turned 30 in England in 2019, and is now 32.

Not saying he's a has-been, but this is when you might expect his batting to start dropping off slightly, just due to the natural effects of age.

I don't expect a bloke with a technique like his to be at his peak too far into his 30s.

I certainly don't attribute his decline in form to Archer.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Lightning McQueen » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:39 am

whufc wrote:Smith is still doing well but if there is one chink in the armour it seems to be to the constant short pitched bowling.

Archer hit him, NZ then worked him over with it and Eng seem to be getting his wicket at the other end from Stokes bowling short at him.

In fairness to Smith playing the short ball constantly is probably the hardest task in cricket. It's fine to be good at the short ball when they have a regulation field and only 1-2 out on the leg side and none out on the off. Completely different story though when you have 2 deep on the leg and one deep third man, probably the hardest shots in cricket to control.

Its no surprise bodyline worked for Bradman eg he averaged less then his career average and it appears to be one way to limit Smith as well albeit he still gets a pass with a near on 40 average but its not 60 odd average.

Its also no surprise teams are unashamedly going to it a bit more now as a genuine tactic when a batsmen gets on top. I think we will see more and more of it in future years unless there is further rule changes.


Looking at his innings by innings career it's evident that he fails often, it just so happens that he smashes big scores quite often too, I'd expect him to be our highest run scorer in Pakistan..........................a tour that I wouldn't be too keen on if I were a player.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby am Bays » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:44 am

Phillipe will not be considered seriously for Test Cricket until he keeps regularly for a State team.

keeping for 70 mins (T20) or 3.5 hrs 50 over cricket) is nothing compared to having to back up for five sessions and concentrate as your bowlers are hammered around the park.

Keeping for 20 overs is easy keeping 120-150 is bloody hard (F*** 80 in community cricket is bad enough)
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby whufc » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:52 am

am Bays wrote:Phillipe will not be considered seriously for Test Cricket until he keeps regularly for a State team.

keeping for 70 mins (T20) or 3.5 hrs 50 over cricket) is nothing compared to having to back up for five sessions and concentrate as your bowlers are hammered around the park.

Keeping for 20 overs is easy keeping 120-150 is bloody hard (F*** 80 in community cricket is bad enough)


His spent the first half of the year keeping in the shield so its not like he doesn't know what the difference is. Inglis has only played one shield game this year.
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Re: Australian International Summer (The Ashes) 2021/22

Postby Booney » Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:05 am

They've 100% worked out how to stop Smith scoring, they've 50% worked out how to get him out.
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