Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby dedja » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:11 am

No mate, I know how MY club operates.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby Dutchy » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:55 am

topsywaldron wrote:
dedja wrote:Yes, a mate of a mate who used to work with a mate said so.


As opposed to your so called indisputable facts of course. :lol:

Anyway, back in the real world and not Dedja's pixieland, maybe it is only Norwood who move money in and out of Trusts that have no obligation to report publicly.


What is the benefit of moving the funds in and out of these said trusts?
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby am Bays » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
topsywaldron wrote:
dedja wrote:Yes, a mate of a mate who used to work with a mate said so.


As opposed to your so called indisputable facts of course. :lol:

Anyway, back in the real world and not Dedja's pixieland, maybe it is only Norwood who move money in and out of Trusts that have no obligation to report publicly.


What is the benefit of moving the funds in and out of these said trusts?


It allows for the propagation of conspiracy theories....
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby wild dog » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:02 pm

Dog Day Afternoon wrote:
wild dog wrote:Companies can be the trustees of trusts. You can then transfer back over to the company to limit taxation in a good year. Pay your flat company tax rate and then pay back to directors etc.. as fees you see fit (within reason) with the franking credit applied. To make the books appear better one year, do you reduce the payment of such directors and increase in following years.


But to do this the incentive is to save tax. Sporting clubs don't pay Company Tax. So why would they pay the additional accounting fees to arrange all of this? And if they did there would be transactions reported in their books showing movements to possibly related entities that would show up in the audited reports. If this is happening in any SANFL club please supply some facts that can be checked.


The discussion as I was interpreting it was on the manipulation of balances between entities to make a year look better or worse. Yes the scenario I provided was based on balancing out good and bad years to ensure tax is paid fairly. In the end though there are mechanisms to ensure an organisations results are presented in a certain manner - apparently Qantas is doing that now. Eventually all has to come to light but it can take time for that to become clear. I'm not aware of any SANFL club doing it but its not illegal. I want to state clearly I'm no accountant but I have a very good one and I listen very carefully ;)
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby PatowalongaPirate » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:08 pm

wild dog wrote:
Dog Day Afternoon wrote:
wild dog wrote:Companies can be the trustees of trusts. You can then transfer back over to the company to limit taxation in a good year. Pay your flat company tax rate and then pay back to directors etc.. as fees you see fit (within reason) with the franking credit applied. To make the books appear better one year, do you reduce the payment of such directors and increase in following years.


But to do this the incentive is to save tax. Sporting clubs don't pay Company Tax. So why would they pay the additional accounting fees to arrange all of this? And if they did there would be transactions reported in their books showing movements to possibly related entities that would show up in the audited reports. If this is happening in any SANFL club please supply some facts that can be checked.


The discussion as I was interpreting it was on the manipulation of balances between entities to make a year look better or worse. Yes the scenario I provided was based on balancing out good and bad years to ensure tax is paid fairly. In the end though there are mechanisms to ensure an organisations results are presented in a certain manner - apparently Qantas is doing that now. Eventually all has to come to light but it can take time for that to become clear. I'm not aware of any SANFL club doing it but its not illegal. I want to state clearly I'm no accountant but I have a very good one and I listen very carefully ;)


Does your accountant offer free parking wild dog? ;)
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby topsywaldron » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:19 pm

am Bays wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
topsywaldron wrote:
dedja wrote:Yes, a mate of a mate who used to work with a mate said so.


As opposed to your so called indisputable facts of course. :lol:

Anyway, back in the real world and not Dedja's pixieland, maybe it is only Norwood who move money in and out of Trusts that have no obligation to report publicly.


What is the benefit of moving the funds in and out of these said trusts?


It allows for the propagation of conspiracy theories....


If only Glenelg fans could turn their obvious and innate superiority off the park into onfield performance.

The massaging of figures via Trusts and other entities was always done at Norwood to hide their true financial position from members. Many a AGM at Norwood ended with the Treasurer inviting people to come 'and have a chat with me afterwards' in order to provide an off the record snapshot of where we really stood that year.

Of course Dedja will deny this happened, he knows everything.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby dedja » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:22 pm

Hey numbnuts, I said I know what happens at the Bay, not your club.

You keep changing your story.

First you claim you know about ALL clubs, now it seems it's just Norwood, so you're assuming all do the same, whatever that means.

Should stick to selling LPs mate.
Last edited by dedja on Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby Wedgie » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:23 pm

That kettles getting blacker! Or is thay the pot? Surely you have bigger issues to post about than the bottom sides account keeping with the Legs gunning for a third flag in a row Topsy?
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby topsywaldron » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:29 pm

dedja wrote:Should stick to selling LPs mate.


Grow up.

You're the one claiming no SANFL club massages their figures, I'm merely pointing out to you, increasingly slowly each time, that some do.

End of story, enjoy your off season.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby Wedgie » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:30 pm

:lol:
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby dedja » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:35 pm

True, you've derailed this discussion enough.

Thanks for your meaningful contribution.

Do you sell Accounting 101 for Dummies by the way?

And is it the CEO or Financial Controller who's cooking the books at Norwood because the Treasurer is on North Terrace?

And are they negligent, incompetent, legally culpable or lying?
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby Dog Day Afternoon » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:29 pm

wild dog wrote:
Dog Day Afternoon wrote:
wild dog wrote:Companies can be the trustees of trusts. You can then transfer back over to the company to limit taxation in a good year. Pay your flat company tax rate and then pay back to directors etc.. as fees you see fit (within reason) with the franking credit applied. To make the books appear better one year, do you reduce the payment of such directors and increase in following years.


But to do this the incentive is to save tax. Sporting clubs don't pay Company Tax. So why would they pay the additional accounting fees to arrange all of this? And if they did there would be transactions reported in their books showing movements to possibly related entities that would show up in the audited reports. If this is happening in any SANFL club please supply some facts that can be checked.


The discussion as I was interpreting it was on the manipulation of balances between entities to make a year look better or worse. Yes the scenario I provided was based on balancing out good and bad years to ensure tax is paid fairly. In the end though there are mechanisms to ensure an organisations results are presented in a certain manner - apparently Qantas is doing that now. Eventually all has to come to light but it can take time for that to become clear. I'm not aware of any SANFL club doing it but its not illegal. I want to state clearly I'm no accountant but I have a very good one and I listen very carefully ;)


The scenario you are describing is not legal in most cases and not relevant for sporting clubs that are defined as not for profit. This means that they don't pay Company Tax. What is happening in Qantas is irrelevant to the matter under discussion. It has been alleged that Glenelg is "cooking the books". I can see no factual basis for this claim and no motive or mechanism that would suggest it is being attempted.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby dedja » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:10 pm

Anyway, we can debate until the Cows come home how clubs report their finances, but the original question by the OP was how each club is going financially.

I'm interested in this also so would appreciate any details people might have before the Annual Reports are released.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby blueandwhite » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:08 pm

Well my information is...and from time to time I get some pretty good info...is that ALL SANFL clubs are doing it tough financially. That includes Centrals and South who have done reasonably well in recent years. Pokie revenue has plummeted, and only one club I believe will make a profit this year.

The clubs - all of them -are very disillusioned with the SANFL and in particular its management; promising the world and delivering very little. The sale of Footy park which was principally built by the SANFL clubs all those years ago - and where the revenue from the sale goes, will be critical in deciding the future of the SANFL. The SANFL has hinted that it wants to retain all the proceeds for itself to pay off its own debt. However with the plight of some clubs now very desperate, most clubs are very concerned. So much so that a meeting of all clubs was recently held in which no-one from the SANFL was invited....
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby LPH » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:23 pm

dedja wrote:Anyway, we can debate until the Cows come home how clubs report their finances, but the original question by the OP was how each club is going financially.

I'm interested in this also so would appreciate any details people might have before the Annual Reports are released.


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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby wild dog » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:32 pm

Dog Day Afternoon wrote:
wild dog wrote:The discussion as I was interpreting it was on the manipulation of balances between entities to make a year look better or worse. Yes the scenario I provided was based on balancing out good and bad years to ensure tax is paid fairly. In the end though there are mechanisms to ensure an organisations results are presented in a certain manner - apparently Qantas is doing that now. Eventually all has to come to light but it can take time for that to become clear. I'm not aware of any SANFL club doing it but its not illegal. I want to state clearly I'm no accountant but I have a very good one and I listen very carefully ;)


The scenario you are describing is not legal in most cases and not relevant for sporting clubs that are defined as not for profit. This means that they don't pay Company Tax. What is happening in Qantas is irrelevant to the matter under discussion. It has been alleged that Glenelg is "cooking the books". I can see no factual basis for this claim and no motive or mechanism that would suggest it is being attempted.


FFS were discussing a complicated issue in simplistic terms. I did not realise we were debating taxation principles although I will add that it is an individuals right to limit paying taxation as long as it is legal. Im a c**t from lizbeff and Ill be f**ed if im going to pay more of my hard earned that I have to. Qantas was an analogy and if you think its irrelevant, then so be it.

I am not saying Glenelg is cooking the books again - there has been no mention of Kerls gatekeeper at all from me. Im saying that a theoretical organisation, as is its legal right, has the ability to present income in a balanced way across annualised periods. Topsy is suggesting that an organisation can do so for the purpose of demonstrating that the current set up is working on a philosophical level, not for taxation purposes. I am suggesting that it is possible, not that it is happening. There endeth the sermon, and my input on this matter.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby Dutchy » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:00 pm

topsywaldron wrote:
If only Glenelg fans could turn their obvious and innate superiority off the park into onfield performance.

The massaging of figures via Trusts and other entities was always done at Norwood to hide their true financial position from members. Many a AGM at Norwood ended with the Treasurer inviting people to come 'and have a chat with me afterwards' in order to provide an off the record snapshot of where we really stood that year.

Of course Dedja will deny this happened, he knows everything.


Again, what is the benefit of doing this?

Only way they could hide anything financial from the outside world is to keep a heap of cash aside from operations in a safe and payments being made from it outside the books, seeing Norwood have had recent salary cap issues maybe this is what Topsy is getting at....
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby dedja » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:02 pm

Spot on Dutchy, maybe he's assuming every club is a salary cap cheat.

I know of one club that has never breached the salary cap. :lol:
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby Dog Day Afternoon » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:45 pm

wild dog wrote:
Dog Day Afternoon wrote:
wild dog wrote:The discussion as I was interpreting it was on the manipulation of balances between entities to make a year look better or worse. Yes the scenario I provided was based on balancing out good and bad years to ensure tax is paid fairly. In the end though there are mechanisms to ensure an organisations results are presented in a certain manner - apparently Qantas is doing that now. Eventually all has to come to light but it can take time for that to become clear. I'm not aware of any SANFL club doing it but its not illegal. I want to state clearly I'm no accountant but I have a very good one and I listen very carefully ;)


The scenario you are describing is not legal in most cases and not relevant for sporting clubs that are defined as not for profit. This means that they don't pay Company Tax. What is happening in Qantas is irrelevant to the matter under discussion. It has been alleged that Glenelg is "cooking the books". I can see no factual basis for this claim and no motive or mechanism that would suggest it is being attempted.


FFS were discussing a complicated issue in simplistic terms. I did not realise we were debating taxation principles although I will add that it is an individuals right to limit paying taxation as long as it is legal. Im a c**t from lizbeff and Ill be f**ed if im going to pay more of my hard earned that I have to. Qantas was an analogy and if you think its irrelevant, then so be it.

I am not saying Glenelg is cooking the books again - there has been no mention of Kerls gatekeeper at all from me. Im saying that a theoretical organisation, as is its legal right, has the ability to present income in a balanced way across annualised periods. Topsy is suggesting that an organisation can do so for the purpose of demonstrating that the current set up is working on a philosophical level, not for taxation purposes. I am suggesting that it is possible, not that it is happening. There endeth the sermon, and my input on this matter.


I grew up in lizbeth too and just happen to be familiar with the accounting standards. I don't understand what point you are making. My fear is that my club and the majority of others will make a loss this year and be concerned about their future. This is the real point of the thread and one as a long time doggies supporter I am worried about and want to discuss.
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Re: Financial Status Of SANFL Clubs 2014.

Postby dedja » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:58 pm

The key for all clubs is how to be sustainable in the long term. That's really difficult for all at the moment.

If the SANFL handles Footy Park well, then we have a chance. It is supposed to managed as a type of future fund for the clubs, but the SANFL has over $30m in debt so this will need to be serviced ASAP, and enough left to create the fund.

The other tragedy is, as correctly stated earlier, all clubs rely on pokies and would quickly die without that revenue. I personally think this is a very sad situation but I don't have an answer on how to replace that revenue.

In addition to above, most clubs can't really cut costs any further so the answer has to be increased revenue and payment of any debt.

Whilst the Bays will not lurch further into the abyss this year, they have significant debt which will need to be addressed sooner rather than later. Breaking even will not pay off debt.

I think this was one of the reasons for the inclusion of the AFL teams, the promise of increased exposure to the league from the channel 7 TV coverage, and an assumption of increased sponsorship. The jury is well and truly out on that one.
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