Ch9 AFL Division 6 - 2015

[morell]

I'll cop that im in the Orange category in that instance, however, I think the standard of umpiring will be comparable to the division you play. The higher you play, the better the umpiring.

Of course. That is obvious. AFL umpires are better than SANFL umpires, who are better than D1 umpires, who are better than D3 umpires etc.

So that means because we play in shitty divisions, we just have to cop it, not suggest improvements or try and change things for the better?

How defeatist.

It may be a stretch to say that an umpires decision is comparable to a player dropping a mark, but im not of the opinion that you should expect SANFL umpiring standards at div 6 level.. Umpires miss things, interpret things differently, some (alot) just make mistakes, all im saying is simply deal with it, and FFS dont pollute the div 6 thread with umpiring rubbish

All very true.

RE polluting this thread, this is a topic which is football related, specific to the lower divisions, and to be honest, is a whole lot more interesting than "hey, did you hear player x signed with y" or "team x are paying heaps of coin!!" or "brahma lodge are cheaterzzzzz!" - that sort of stuff is the real polution, IMO.

[morell]

Morell dude you need to relax on the statistics and all these words that ive never heard before.

Ah cmon, what words are you talking about? I am trying to calm down on my over verbalisation of everything personality tick.

[Footy Chick]

Done plenty of it.

#itsnotthathard #getoveryourselves #getitright #whydonthashtagsworkonsafooty

because I hate hashtags and permanently ban any wanker that uses them

[Bombers4EVA]

Done plenty of it.

#itsnotthathard #getoveryourselves #getitright #whydonthashtagsworkonsafooty

because I hate hashtags and permanently ban any wanker that uses them

Mwahahahahahahahahahaha (evil laugh)

[morell]

Done plenty of it.

#itsnotthathard #getoveryourselves #getitright #whydonthashtagsworkonsafooty

because I hate hashtags and permanently ban any wanker that uses them

#howdoesheknow

haha, fair enough, they can be handy though! Imagine, an ignorable hashtag for umpire chat

[Footy Chick]

No seriously

Any of you who post in the cricket threads may be familiar with the work of a poster who called himself hashtag and literally only posted in them.

Guess how long he lasted

[Q.]

#it'snotagainsttherules

[Jetters]

Morell you prove my point about people complaining about umpires who have no idea.

"The problem, which I tried to explain, is that nowhere does it codify, categorically, what does and does not constitute "prior opportunity". This is where interpretation and discretion come in, this is where the AFL tinker and play. This is where everyone gets confused. Is it three steps? Is it 1.5 seconds? Is it 4 metres? Is it 360 degrees? Is it different for a handball or kick? Is it different if you get it contested or uncontested?"

The rules absolutely codify 'prior opportunity'.... the fact you don't know this is exactly my point.

No it doesn't Jetters! It's a deliberately designed interpretive rule. Leigh Matthews, a member of the laws of the game committee, said this:

THE AFL will move to end the confusion over the holding-the-ball rule — and how it is interpreted — after the vexed issue was discussed at the coaches’ dinner at AFL boss Gillon McLachlan’s house this week

Matthews, who is a member of the laws of the game committee, says the central problem is that “prior opportunity’’ is not codified. “There is no actual definition for prior opportunity,” Matthews said. “Prior opportunity, if you want to handball it, you only need about half a step, don’t you?
“It’s really difficult when the rule book doesn’t actually give you a definition of prior opportunity.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/a ... 6994157120

here is a link to the official laws of the game:

http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20 ... ll_Web.pdf

The section we're interested in is 15.2.3:

15.2.3 Holding the Football — Prior Opportunity/No Prior Opportunity

Where the field Umpire is satisfied that a Player in possession of the football:

(a) has had a prior opportunity to dispose of the football, the field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against that Player if the Player does not Kick or Handball the football immediately when they are Correctly Tackled; or (b) has not had a prior opportunity to dispose of the football, the
field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against that Player if upon being Correctly Tackled, the Player does not Correctly Dispose or genuinely attempt to Correctly Dispose of the football after being given a reasonable opportunity to do so.

The bolded bits are what are open to interpretation.

What we need, is sections like the below, for all forms of open play:

(c) Except in the instance of a poor bounce or throw, a Player who takes possession of the football while contesting a bounce or throw by a field Umpire or a boundary throw in, shall be regarded as having had prior opportunity. (d) has driven their head into a stationary or near stationary opponent, the Player shall be regarded as having had prior opportunity.

The AFL Rules of the Game DVD does a great job of defining prior opportunity.

It may not be defined using inflexible measures because of the random nature of the game.

You may only come close to using inflexible measures in the example above because it is such a non-random, structured example.

The biggest problem the AFL has with umpiring is they don't educate fans on the rules, especially considering how often (too often!) they change them. The umpiring is often fantastic and fans think its shit. Lack of education.

[Jetters]

I'll cop that im in the Orange category in that instance, however, I think the standard of umpiring will be comparable to the division you play. The higher you play, the better the umpiring.

Of course. That is obvious. AFL umpires are better than SANFL umpires, who are better than D1 umpires, who are better than D3 umpires etc.

So that means because we play in shitty divisions, we just have to cop it, not suggest improvements or try and change things for the better?

How defeatist.

It may be a stretch to say that an umpires decision is comparable to a player dropping a mark, but im not of the opinion that you should expect SANFL umpiring standards at div 6 level.. Umpires miss things, interpret things differently, some (alot) just make mistakes, all im saying is simply deal with it, and FFS dont pollute the div 6 thread with umpiring rubbish

All very true.

RE polluting this thread, this is a topic which is football related, specific to the lower divisions, and to be honest, is a whole lot more interesting than "hey, did you hear player x signed with y" or "team x are paying heaps of coin!!" or "brahma lodge are cheaterzzzzz!" - that sort of stuff is the real polution, IMO.

You haven't suggested anything, just complained.

[morell]

The AFL Rules of the Game DVD does a great job of defining prior opportunity.

The AFL Rules of the Game DVD does a great job of defining the current interpretation of prior opportunity.

The reason why it's an interpretation is because it's not codified within the laws of the game.

It may not be defined using inflexible measures because of the random nature of the game.

Sure. I agree. The reasons why I originally said, way back when, that IMO Australian Rules Football is the worst adjudicated sport in the world is a mixture of a refusal to provide enough resources, constantly changing the rules, constantly changing the interpretations of the rules and the fact the game is inherently less structured and rigid compared to other sports.

Classic example is take a mate from another country and explain the rules, then whilst watching a game, explain why one incident was against the rules and why another was not. Its a laughable experience.

You may only come close to using inflexible measures in the example above because it is such a non-random, structured example.

I think some work could be done in this area, or at a minimum, leave the interpretations alone for more than 12 months.

One interpretation used to be for example, that you couldn't get swung 360 degrees without disposing the ball - thats out the window. It used to be that if you were in the kicking or handball action and the tackle caused you to not dispose of the ball correctly, that was interpreted as incorrect disposal and holding the ball. That's out the window provided the attempt is considered "genuine".

It's absolutely ridiculous. I love the sport itself, playing it and being involved with my club, but **** me drunk if its rules aren't a complete mish mash of palaver. There is far too much grey area and room for movement in how umpires can interpret the rules. One could argue therefore that it is not the umpires fault, but rather the umpiring management, and there is some truth in that.

The biggest problem the AFL has with umpiring is they don't educate fans on the rules, especially considering how often (too often!) they change them. The umpiring is often fantastic and fans think its shit. Lack of education.

I sort of agree, there is a lack of understanding of the changing interpretations. But thats only the case because as you mentioned, they keep changing!

The umpires at AFL level get a lot of the simple stuff wrong though. Too much so for an elite level of sport. How we still cannot tell if a ball is or is not over the line of the goal or whether or not its been touched or which side of the post its gone or still have doubt over HTB is completely farcical.

[morell]

You haven't suggested anything, just complained.

Well that's just not true.

For example, I suggested that we begin providing more transparency and accountability for umpires. I also suggested that we begin changing the culture around the over protection and worship at the alter of the Umpire. I also suggested that we speak to the Umpiring Manager dude and suggest to him that we provide some more training to umpires around being impartial and removing all prejudice that a clubs reputations might bare.

Did you ignore or forget these points? Disagreeing with them doesn't mean they didn't exist.

[morell]

You've got all the answers

You haven't suggested anything

Are you feeling OK Jetters? As in, do you sometimes have moments of dissociation?

[Footy Chick]

[cracka]

You haven't suggested anything, just complained.

Well that's just not true.

For example, I suggested that we begin providing more transparency and accountability for umpires. I also suggested that we begin changing the culture around the over protection and worship at the alter of the Umpire. I also suggested that we speak to the Umpiring Manager dude and suggest to him that we provide some more training to umpires around being impartial and removing all prejudice that a clubs reputations might bare.

Did you ignore or forget these points? Disagreeing with them doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Have you suggested them to anyone in a position to do something or just on this forum.

[morell]

Not my place.

But no, I have not said anything to anyone in a position of influence and it's a fair point cracka. Fully understand these things are much easier said on a forum than done in reality.

[Robb_Stark]

Not my place.

But no, I have not said anything to anyone in a position of influence and it's a fair point cracka. Fully understand these things are much easier said on a forum than done in reality.

email is not very hard the league do read them and respond

[2slow]

Any one feel like talking about football? Umpires......yawn.

[morell]

Not my place.

But no, I have not said anything to anyone in a position of influence and it's a fair point cracka. Fully understand these things are much easier said on a forum than done in reality.

email is not very hard the league do read them and respond

I highly doubt that would be very effective unless it came from an official representative of a club, which I am not.

Would probably be the responsibility of our president or footy manager.

Still fun to discuss though!

[morell]

Any one feel like talking about football? Umpires......yawn.

Never ceases to amaze me how many people, who don't post anything, complain to the people that are posting things, that the content of their posting is not entertaining enough or interesting to them. It is as if the people that do create content are supposed to magically understand the whims of their digital audiences.

Honestly, post something you want to talk about, start a conversation, raise a topic.

Wait wait ... let me guess...

Someones has signed a player no one has really heard of outside of their circle of friends??

A club is going to be paying lots of money to their players?

You don't like a the cut of a certain clubs jib?

[2slow]

Take it easy mate. You will get tears in your keyboard.
Plenty to talk about....Training numbers, recruits. That's what us no-post nuffies get on to look at. Or did you think we come to get a glimpse of the great forum Lord morell?