Port Adelaide 2017

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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:38 pm

Jim05 wrote:
morell wrote:Just as an aside. Coaches MVP as of Round 16 (an award that should be rated much more highly)

Ryder - 47 and the leading ruckman
Kreuzer - 41

Must be more of that pesky supporter bias sneaking in.

Just like the Brownlow though I've found the winning side more often than not gets the most votes.
Whilst true, is that not fair enough?
Jim05 wrote:I have Kreuzer slightly ahead at the moment but those 2 are clear daylight ahead of the rest and there could be a argument that both make the AA side
Fair enough.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Wedgie wrote:Anyone seen this?

http://www.afl.com.au/stats/player-ratings/ratings-hub

Interesting that Ryder isnt rated in the top 10 ruckmen in the comp. He's 15th! :shock:

Behind Nic Nat who hasn't played this season, Tom Hickey, Tippett, Jordan Roughead?

I suppose if you look hard enough you will always find something somewhere.
HOGG SHIELD DIVISION V WINNER 2018.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby Wedgie » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:40 pm

Lightning McQueen wrote:
Wedgie wrote:Anyone seen this?

http://www.afl.com.au/stats/player-ratings/ratings-hub

Interesting that Ryder isnt rated in the top 10 ruckmen in the comp. He's 15th! :shock:

Behind Nic Nat who hasn't played this season, Tom Hickey, Tippett, Jordan Roughead?

I know! It seems even I overrated him! :lol:
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:42 pm

Wedgie wrote:Anyone seen this?

http://www.afl.com.au/stats/player-ratings/ratings-hub

Interesting that Ryder isnt rated in the top 10 ruckmen in the comp. He's 15th! :shock:
Shhhh the adults are talking.

but since I am nice...

That's a type of career statistic (uses last 40 games played). Not a seasonal one. Which is what this discussion is about.

But keep on keeping on, you'll get there one day.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby human_torpedo » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:52 pm

morell wrote:
human_torpedo wrote:The real story here is Morell dismissing stats as irrelevant and not the basis of the argument!! Goes against literally everything you have ever said on here, ever..
Stats back up the argument that Ryder is the best ruck in the comp. My point was people using or misinterpreting bad stats.

Bad stats are bad mmmkay?

Are bad stats just defined as stats that don't directly back up your argument?

Mumford (38.9 per game) has had 100 more hit outs than Ryder (34.6 per game), Shiel (2nd) Ward (12th) are both higher than Ports highest ranked clearance player Wines (17th). GWS are the best clearance team. Port are second, 26 behind them..

What stats should we be focussing on? Since kicks, marks, handballs, hit outs, clearances have been disregarded by you thus far

Wedgie that has Goldstein as number 1 ranked, not sure it would hold up in court
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:01 pm

Well that's easy.

What are we trying to measure?
What is the time-frame we're measuring within?
What are the known biases?
What are the available sources of data?
What is the quality of that data?

Answer them, and you'll quickly understand what data and stats we ought to be using.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby MW » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:27 pm

morell wrote:Well that's easy.

What are we trying to measure?
What is the time-frame we're measuring within?
What are the known biases?
What are the available sources of data?
What is the quality of that data?

Answer them, and you'll quickly understand what data and stats we ought to be using.


all will count for shit unless there is a shiny medal around his neck come end of September
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby bennymacca » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:23 pm

morell wrote:Just as an aside. Coaches MVP as of Round 16 (an award that should be rated much more highly)

Ryder - 47 and the leading ruckman
Kreuzer - 41

Must be more of that pesky supporter bias sneaking in.


You can discount this based on the amount of games Carlton have won compared to port - in fact it probably supports the argument for kreuzer
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:32 pm

Winning games for your team discounts your influence as a player?

OK
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:33 pm

But let’s flesh it out, it'll be healthy for some of the less analytically inclined:

What are we trying to measure? - Who should be the AA ruck. So the data needs to be ruck specific.
What is the time-frame we're measuring within? - 2017 data only as AA is obviously seasonal.
What are the known biases? - Supporter bias the main one, so we can’t use supporters polls or other crowd source type data
What are the available sources of data? - Difficult to ascertain, a lot of the more specific ruck measurements are not publicly available so we need to use anecdotal reporting
What is the quality of that data? - Good but not fit for use

One poster used hit outs - as was discussed, this is a poor choice as it doesn’t indicate the quality or difficulty of the hit out. It’s far too macro.
Another poster used kicks marks and handballs. Another effective disposals and goals. Good but not ruck specific. Is Charlie Dixon better than Patty Ryder as ruck if he averages more than him? No.
Another poster used team clearances – better, as it can indicate the success of the hit out, but is also reliant on the quality of the midfield. Also doesn’t indicate the quality of the clearance.
Another poster used AFL Player ratings and was duly asked to log out of his account as it isn’t reflective of the 2017 AFL season. Also flawed as its pretty much the same as fantasy points.
Another poster used Coaches’ votes. Problem with this is it’s not ruck specific. But is seasonal. Non biased. Anecdotal. Expert – AFL coaches tend to know what they’re talking about. Good quality - aggregated from micro sources. Would be my choice. Which is why I posted it.

The best way, perhaps, is to use all of these, calculate them into a z score - http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-Z-Scores - weight them and return the average results.

I’m posting this before I’ve worked it out for transparency. I will compare – Ryder, Kreuzer, Grundy, Jacobs, Mumford

This will be known as the Safooty.net Weighted Averaged Ruck Score Metric (SWARM)

Individual Hit outs – 20%
Disposals – 10%
Effective disposals -5%
Goals – 5%
Team clearances – 10%
AFL Player ratings – 0%
Coaches’ votes – 50%
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby Bum Crack » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:42 pm

morell wrote:But let’s flesh it out, it'll be healthy for some of the less analytically inclined:

What are we trying to measure? - Who should be the AA ruck. So the data needs to be ruck specific.
What is the time-frame we're measuring within? - 2017 data only as AA is obviously seasonal.
What are the known biases? - Supporter bias the main one, so we can’t use supporters polls or other crowd source type data
What are the available sources of data? - Difficult to ascertain, a lot of the more specific ruck measurements are not publicly available so we need to use anecdotal reporting
What is the quality of that data? - Good but not fit for use

One poster used hit outs - as was discussed, this is a poor choice as it doesn’t indicate the quality or difficulty of the hit out. It’s far too macro.
Another poster used kicks marks and handballs. Another effective disposals and goals. Good but not ruck specific. Is Charlie Dixon better than Patty Ryder as ruck if he averages more than him? No.
Another poster used team clearances – better, as it can indicate the success of the hit out, but is also reliant on the quality of the midfield. Also doesn’t indicate the quality of the clearance.
Another poster used AFL Player ratings and was duly asked to log out of his account as it isn’t reflective of the 2017 AFL season. Also flawed as its pretty much the same as fantasy points.
Another poster used Coaches’ votes. Problem with this is it’s not ruck specific. But is seasonal. Non biased. Anecdotal. Expert – AFL coaches tend to know what they’re talking about. Good quality - aggregated from micro sources. Would be my choice. Which is why I posted it.

The best way, perhaps, is to use all of these, calculate them into a z score - http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-Z-Scores - weight them and return the average results.

I’m posting this before I’ve worked it out for transparency. I will compare – Ryder, Kreuzer, Grundy, Jacobs, Mumford

This will be known as the Safooty.net Weighted Averaged Ruck Score Metric (SWARM)

Individual Hit outs – 20%
Disposals – 10%
Effective disposals -5%
Goals – 5%
Team clearances – 10%
AFL Player ratings – 0%
Coaches’ votes – 50%

If you work for an employer, I'd be pissed if I was them knowing how unproductive you are during the work day :lol:
So you've seen everything have you?
Yep
Have you ever seen a man eat his own head?
No
Well you haven't seen everything then have you.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:44 pm

I am on sick leave! and this stuff is - without purposefully wanting to sound arrogant - kind of simple, I can do it pretty quickly in break time. I wouldnt be any good at my job if I couldn't.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby bennymacca » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:07 pm

So tell me how you arrived at your weightings for z score

Actually, don't. [emoji23]
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:08 pm

I just explained how I did!
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby amber_fluid » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:13 pm

morell wrote:I am on sick leave! and this stuff is - without purposefully wanting to sound arrogant - kind of simple, I can do it pretty quickly in break time. I wouldnt be any good at my job if I couldn't.


What are you, a gigolo? ;)
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby bennymacca » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:13 pm

morell wrote:I just explained how I did!


Why is coaches votes 50% and other things less? Other than it will bias the results?
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:21 pm

Interesting results. Even without the weightings Ryder wins pretty easily.

Image
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:23 pm

bennymacca wrote:
morell wrote:I just explained how I did!


Why is coaches votes 50% and other things less? Other than it will bias the results?

Coaches votes are

Seasonal
Non Biased
Aggregated from individual games
Anecdotal

I took the Coaches down to 20%. Ryder is still easily #1.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby morell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:24 pm

So anyway, thanks for coming, welcome to what the D6 and D7 posters have had to put up for years.

Me being right.
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Re: Port Adelaide 2017

Postby amber_fluid » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:36 pm

Morrell, never forget this my friend!

IMG_1449.JPG
IMG_1449.JPG (56.19 KiB) Viewed 487 times
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