Best team of the 21st Century

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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:10 pm

Brodlach wrote:I think you have sold Johnathon Brown so short Morrell. In my 47 years of watching footy I rate him as one of the best players I have seen. Because he played up in Brisbane too many people dismiss what he did. If he played in SA or Victoria he would be lauded as a pure champion of the game


And I don't support Brisbane
You may very well, but I would suggest that is because of a few moments of gutsy efforts, a personal liking towards a personality type/playing style - rather than an overall body of work.

Dismiss what he did? What exactly did he do? His record is really not that impressive when you factor in the teams he played in and the roles that he had.

It's a bit like people frothing over Glen Archer - who was in all reality a limited footballer. Boy he was tough though ;)
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby amber_fluid » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:11 pm

Booney wrote:B: Enright Scarlett Wanganeen
HB: Hodge (C) Rance McLeod
C: Ruccuito Voss Pendlebury
HF: Johnson Riewoldt Hird
F: Goodes Lloyd Franklin
R: Cox Judd Ablett
I: Mitchell Dangerfield Swan Pavlich
E: Black, Buckley, Brown, Tredrea Harvey

Out - Selwood and Johnson
In Ruccuito and Wanganeen

Lloyd with 3.43 goals per game must be ahead of Brown on 2.32 goals per game. I'd swap Lloyd for Brown.

I'd also have Swan in ahead of Harvey.

And if Brown gets the nod over Tredrea through weight of premierships then Tredrea bumps Richardson off the emergency list.

I think Ruccuito must be in there, I'll exchange him for Selwood.

I think Wanganeen should be in ahead of Johnson in the back pocket.

Tough ask for anyone and something as subjective as this is very difficult to agree on.


Good call on Wanganeen.
Agree wth that.

I'd also have Ben Hart before Johnson as well.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:12 pm

Booney wrote:And plenty of good sides who become great because of a champion playing at their very best. It's one of those variables.
Plenty of already good sides yeah. Brisbane were *great*. With or without Brown. He often did naff all in big finals.

I've never seen a single champion player turn an ordinary side into a good one and would challenge you to name when that has occurred.

Gary Ablett Junior (IMO in the GOAT conversation) says hello.
Last edited by morell on Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby amber_fluid » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:14 pm

morell wrote:
Brodlach wrote:I think you have sold Johnathon Brown so short Morrell. In my 47 years of watching footy I rate him as one of the best players I have seen. Because he played up in Brisbane too many people dismiss what he did. If he played in SA or Victoria he would be lauded as a pure champion of the game


And I don't support Brisbane
You may very well, but I would suggest that is because of a few moments of gutsy efforts, a personal liking towards a personality type/playing style - rather than an overall body of work.

Dismiss what he did? What exactly did he do? His record is really not that impressive when you factor in the teams he played in and the roles that he had.

It's a bit like people frothing over Glen Archer - who was in all reality a limited footballer. Boy he was tough though ;)


C'mon mate now we know you are taking the p*ss.
Not that impressive?

And Archer was limited?
C'mon man............
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:16 pm

amber_fluid wrote:
morell wrote:
Brodlach wrote:I think you have sold Johnathon Brown so short Morrell. In my 47 years of watching footy I rate him as one of the best players I have seen. Because he played up in Brisbane too many people dismiss what he did. If he played in SA or Victoria he would be lauded as a pure champion of the game


And I don't support Brisbane
You may very well, but I would suggest that is because of a few moments of gutsy efforts, a personal liking towards a personality type/playing style - rather than an overall body of work.

Dismiss what he did? What exactly did he do? His record is really not that impressive when you factor in the teams he played in and the roles that he had.

It's a bit like people frothing over Glen Archer - who was in all reality a limited footballer. Boy he was tough though ;)


C'mon mate now we know you are taking the p*ss.
Not that impressive?

And Archer was limited?
C'mon man............
Not that impressive, as an individual player, compared to the very elite, no.

Archer was limited! Great defender, courageous to a fault. Not very good skills and was dumb as a post.

Your post just confirms what I am saying. If a player is seen as tough and courageous and a "good bloke" we massively overrate their output as footballers.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby amber_fluid » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:18 pm

morell wrote:
amber_fluid wrote:
morell wrote:
Brodlach wrote:I think you have sold Johnathon Brown so short Morrell. In my 47 years of watching footy I rate him as one of the best players I have seen. Because he played up in Brisbane too many people dismiss what he did. If he played in SA or Victoria he would be lauded as a pure champion of the game


And I don't support Brisbane
You may very well, but I would suggest that is because of a few moments of gutsy efforts, a personal liking towards a personality type/playing style - rather than an overall body of work.

Dismiss what he did? What exactly did he do? His record is really not that impressive when you factor in the teams he played in and the roles that he had.

It's a bit like people frothing over Glen Archer - who was in all reality a limited footballer. Boy he was tough though ;)


C'mon mate now we know you are taking the p*ss.
Not that impressive?

And Archer was limited?
C'mon man............
Not that impressive compared to the very elite, no.

Archer was limited! Great defender, courageous to a fault. Not very good skills and was dumb as a post.

Your post just confirms what I am saying. If a player is seen as tough and courageous and a "good bloke" we massively overrate their output as footballers.


Only one shinboner of the century though ;)
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:19 pm

Exactly.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby Spargo » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:20 pm

morell wrote:It's a bit like people frothing over Glen Archer - who was in all reality a limited footballer. Boy he was tough though ;)

All Australian, AFL Hall of Fame inductee, 311 games for the most dominant team of the 90's, widely regarded as on of the most courageous players seen. All this as a limited footballer...
:lol:
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby amber_fluid » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:24 pm

Spargo wrote:
morell wrote:It's a bit like people frothing over Glen Archer - who was in all reality a limited footballer. Boy he was tough though ;)

All Australian, AFL Hall of Fame inductee, 311 games for the most dominant team of the 90's, widely regarded as on of the most courageous players seen. All this as a limited footballer...
:lol:


And he played out of his weight category nearly all those 311 games as well.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:26 pm

Yep. Amazing that he was able to do that considering his limitations. He wasn't that tall or quick and had relatively ordinary skills. He is perhaps the most highly romanticised player of all time. Brown next.

Archer is a champion of the game, don't get me wrong, but ... he is another example of us as footballs fans putting tough or courageous footballers on a higher pedestal than perhaps they deserve. Paul Kelly another one - bloke could barely kick a drop punt. There are a myriad of them.

Port do it too. Michael Wilson being our equivalent.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby Booney » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:32 pm

Is the Div 7 thread missing you?
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:36 pm

Pretty quiet in there. :(

My different ideas come from not growing up with AFL - I question all of our "known truths" and it makes people perplexed.

Brown takes a courageous gutsy mark and everyone gets all excited. But ultimately... it still just counts as one mark. If another player takes two standard contested marks that aren't as courageous. That player is better.

Same thing for Archer. He might do one incredibly tough spoil running back with the flight and break a rib. But if another player keeps his opposition goalless and gets 20 touches of quality for his team. That player is the better player.

We overrate courage when assessing players. In a nutshell.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:44 pm

One of my favourite scenes in movie history. This forum is filled with old baseball scouts. I'm Billy Beane :lol:



I'm just waiting for someone to say "Yeah, but Brown's girlfriend is a at least a 6"
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby amber_fluid » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:47 pm

morell wrote:Pretty quiet in there. :(

My different ideas come from not growing up with AFL - I question all of our "known truths" and it makes people perplexed.

Brown takes a courageous gutsy mark and everyone gets all excited. But ultimately... it still just counts as one mark. If another player takes two standard contested marks that aren't as courageous. That player is better.

Same thing for Archer. He might do one incredibly tough spoil running back with the flight and break a rib. But if another player keeps his opposition goalless and gets 20 touches of quality for his team. That player is the better player.

We overrate courage when assessing players. In a nutshell.


High disposal count doesn't make you a great player.
Sure it helps but it's not everything.

Kane Cornes anyone?
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby morell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:49 pm

amber_fluid wrote:
morell wrote:Pretty quiet in there. :(

My different ideas come from not growing up with AFL - I question all of our "known truths" and it makes people perplexed.

Brown takes a courageous gutsy mark and everyone gets all excited. But ultimately... it still just counts as one mark. If another player takes two standard contested marks that aren't as courageous. That player is better.

Same thing for Archer. He might do one incredibly tough spoil running back with the flight and break a rib. But if another player keeps his opposition goalless and gets 20 touches of quality for his team. That player is the better player.

We overrate courage when assessing players. In a nutshell.


High disposal count doesn't make you a great player.
Sure it helps but it's not everything.

Kane Cornes anyone?

Oh I agree.

Being courageous doesn't make you a great player either.

To be clear. Glen Archer is a great player. I suspect ya'll are not picking up what I'm putting down.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby Spargo » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:52 pm

Running back with the flight of the ball, courageous acts, gutsy marks...
Theses things LIFT your team mates around you. Because there isn't a stat for this, you want to gloss over it?
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby Spargo » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:53 pm

morell wrote:
amber_fluid wrote:
morell wrote:Pretty quiet in there. :(

My different ideas come from not growing up with AFL - I question all of our "known truths" and it makes people perplexed.

Brown takes a courageous gutsy mark and everyone gets all excited. But ultimately... it still just counts as one mark. If another player takes two standard contested marks that aren't as courageous. That player is better.

Same thing for Archer. He might do one incredibly tough spoil running back with the flight and break a rib. But if another player keeps his opposition goalless and gets 20 touches of quality for his team. That player is the better player.

We overrate courage when assessing players. In a nutshell.


High disposal count doesn't make you a great player.
Sure it helps but it's not everything.

Kane Cornes anyone?

Oh I agree.

Being courageous doesn't make you a great player either.

To be clear. Glen Archer is a great player. I suspect ya'll are not picking up what I'm putting down.

No, you said he was a limited footballer.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby Bum Crack » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:55 pm

Spargo wrote:Running back with the flight of the ball, courageous acts, gutsy marks...
Theses things LIFT your team mates around you. Because there isn't a stat for this, you want to gloss over it?

I think he wants reactions and that's what he's getting. Good to see Scarlett and Enright in there. They're lock ins for the greatest team of all time IMO.
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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby Rik E Boy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:56 pm

Spargo wrote:Running back with the flight of the ball, courageous acts, gutsy marks...
Theses things LIFT your team mates around you. Because there isn't a stat for this, you want to gloss over it?


Which is why Selwood is not inferior to Swan.

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Re: Best team of the 21st Century

Postby beef » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:59 pm

I actually agree with Morrell. Archer was able to get everything out of his ability. Very good player/clubman etc and i'd love to play with him but he wasn't an elite footballer. Also picking Tredrea over Brown. Tredrea early 2000's were amazing. Brown could probably dominate a single game better but Tredrea was so much more consistent.
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