SA Footy

I think you're overlooking the fact Anzac Day match at Glenelg was played on a day & time that didn't clash with other sporting activities.I'm involved with SFL.
The one SFL match was over in time for people to go to the Bay. In fact Ty played in SFL and was there to support Glenelg as well.

I was one of many there for the Anzac Day game v Crows, but not the Sat afternoon one.

Ah how entirely predictable that the no AFL crowd here want to rip out figures that destroy their argument. So, while we're at it, should we take out the less than 2k who showed up the week after Anzac Day for the rain/wind/hail affected Friday night game between Glenelg and Norwood? Glenelg were coming off a good win, Norwood always draw a good crowd, that game gets at least double that crowd on a good night. Then, let's take out the less than 2k crowd between Norwood and Centrals, again on a Friday night with rain and hail. Then let's take out the disappointing 1302 at Richmond for West Adelaide v Adelaide, on a Friday night where it rained for the entire game. See? We can all cherry pick!

The stats are what they are, and yes, I get that they are destroying the arguments of people who have now carried them on for over a year and that's no doubt a little hard to take. But what really is beyond ridiculous, is people who complain and spread conspiracy theories about crowds and stats being doctored, now calling for stats to be doctored! Even now wanting to take out a crowd from a "pure" SANFL game between last year's grand finalists returning to it's traditional home? What next! If that's where we've got to, surely it's time to move on!

it also dilutes the argument from the people with half a brain on the no reserves side that have been posting here.

matt35 wrote:So, while we're at it, should we take out the less than 2k who showed up the week after Anzac Day for the rain/wind/hail affected Friday night game between Glenelg and Norwood? Glenelg were coming off a good win, Norwood always draw a good crowd, that game gets at least double that crowd on a good night. Then, let's take out the less than 2k crowd between Norwood and Centrals, again on a Friday night with rain and hail.

Pretty sure Centrals v Norwood in Round 2 would be close to the lowest crowd ever between the 2 teams, due mainly (if not entirely) to the 12pm start (a result of the AFL teams coming in). If not it's certainly well down on previous recent matches and would have been a fair kick in the nuts to the Dogs revenue.

So your points are valid but you've got the same tunnel vision as those you keep whinging about. Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?

Laptop with my figures being serviced at the moment should have something done by this time next week.

I do not think comparing April crowds with July's is right. Every club usually gets lower home crowds as the season goes along.
This happens to almost every club every year since I started taking decent records in 2005.
Port were the exception as they had Crows and Norwood as their last 2 matches.

The jury is still out for mine, re this having a positive or negative crowd effect over time.

I just think it is wrong for people to say that crowds are down this year.. In a specific example that might be right but overall for the league it is simply not factually correct.

The real comparison will be next year when we have 2 sets of matching figures to look at.

As for taking out special games, this assumes there were no special games in previous years.

Anzac day Norwood North at the Parade to me would have got about 7k. West game in 2013 same venue got 6k
Glenelg crows with no Tex would have got at least 5k.
So those novelties taken out would still leave 10k increase.

PhilH wrote:Laptop with my figures being serviced at the moment should have something done by this time next week.

I do not think comparing April crowds with July's is right. Every club usually gets lower home crowds as the season goes along.
This happens to almost every club every year since I started taking decent records in 2005.
Port were the exception as they had Crows and Norwood as their last 2 matches.

The jury is still out for mine, re this having a positive or negative crowd effect over time.

I just think it is wrong for people to say that crowds are down this year.. In a specific example that might be right but overall for the league it is simply not factually correct.

The real comparison will be next year when we have 2 sets of matching figures to look at.

As for taking out special games, this assumes there were no special games in previous years.

Anzac day Norwood North at the Parade to me would have got about 7k. West game in 2013 same venue got 6k
Glenelg crows with no Tex would have got at least 5k.
So those novelties taken out would still leave 10k increase.

great post phil, agree 100%

@JK

The scheduling of the Centrals v Norwood game at Elizabeth was not due to the AFL entry in to the competition. It was due to a request from channel Seven to play the match at an earlier time slot. Can't blame the Crows or Magpies for that!

johntheclaret wrote:
Pro reservists like yourself seem happy to ignore these exceptional events and the distortion of the total count to support your argument that the inclusion of the reserves has been a success when a closer look at the stats might show a different picture.

A country game between Port and Crows is going to benefit the SANFL how?
Any new fans recruited are surely to support either of the two AFL clubs. You could go as far as saying that the SANFL might even lose out if example a young Sturt fan is converted to follow Adelaide Crows after going to the Clare game.

And there it is in a nutshell.
I am happy to wait for 5 yrs of statistical data, if that's what it takes to prove this decision was detrimental to the League.
But I fear, by then, the crowd numbers will be on a par with what has occurred in the VFL.

You simply cannot ignore the 'Walker game' as a statistical anomaly - I was there & I paid to get in.
There were plenty that lined up with me (in Cows gear) that didn't pay - many of whom, went home at 1/2 time when the rain set in.

For the sake of the competition, I hope there isn't a downturn & all my fellow naysayers are wrong - time will tell.
But for the 'Reservists' to claim that 10K @ The Bay & 6K+ @ Clare don't 'fudge' the figures, in terms of average attendances, is laughable in the extreme.

BTW, Topsy - I love your passion

PhilH wrote:Laptop with my figures being serviced at the moment should have something done by this time next week.

@PhilH for each average figure you present I would appreciate also seeing variance and median. If it's not too much trouble, natch.

(edit) and another thing ... perhaps any argument regarding crowd changes across 2013-2014 ought to consider games between the sovereign 8 clubs in each year, among other things.

I'd be happy to knock up a few scripts to automate the above; got a bit of time on my hands for programming projects. PM me if you like.

matt35 wrote:@JK

The scheduling of the Centrals v Norwood game at Elizabeth was not due to the AFL entry in to the competition. It was due to a request from channel Seven to play the match at an earlier time slot. Can't blame the Crows or Magpies for that!

Lol and why did 7 become the broadcaster this year?

Pseudo wrote:

PhilH wrote:Laptop with my figures being serviced at the moment should have something done by this time next week.

@PhilH for each average figure you present I would appreciate also seeing variance and median. If it's not too much trouble, natch.

(edit) and another thing ... perhaps any argument regarding crowd changes across 2013-2014 ought to consider games between the sovereign 8 clubs in each year, among other things.

I'd be happy to knock up a few scripts to automate the above; got a bit of time on my hands for programming projects. PM me if you like.

From my crowd figures I have before this year:
Year Average Median
1997 3219 2732
1998 3689 3196
1999 3195 2706
2000 2957 2800
2001 3106 2677
2002 3101 2489
2003 2890 2502
2004 2817 2653
2005 2743 2591
2006 2874 2684
2007 2867 2565
2008 3065 2762
2009 2924 2725
2010 3073 2885
2011 3201 2888
2012 2880 2507
2013 2622 2432
2014 2812 (from Phils' post, and since I don't have all figures he can fill in the median)

Edit: There is a difference in average for 2013 from what Phil has, it's because the SANFL Annual Report differs from figures sometimes in the newspaper). I have changed some of mine to the Annual Report. It may also have happened in previous years too if this is the case before.

I don't see how an average crowd figure being up on a previously low year by approx 300, yet being lower than the average crowd figure in 2011really has anything much to do with the integrity of the league, the figures can be argued both ways. The facts are Adelaide supporters are massive no shows to games and they add f-all to crowd attendances and revenue.
Isn't the problem the fact that we've got two teams working off an open salary cap and access to players that SANFL clubs can't draft? For me, arguing about 300 more per game depending on what year you compare it to is missing the main point.

CUTTERMAN wrote:I don't see how an average crowd figure being up on a previously low year by approx 300, yet being lower than the average crowd figure in 2011really has anything much to do with the integrity of the league, the figures can be argued both ways. The facts are Adelaide supporters are massive no shows to games and they add f-all to crowd attendances and revenue.
Isn't the problem the fact that we've got two teams working off an open salary cap and access to players that SANFL clubs can't draft? For me, arguing about 300 more per game depending on what year you compare it to is missing the main point.

That's very true, but one of the selling points of the current composition of the competition was renewed interest, hence why it's a talking point. As far as I can tell even if the average was up by one from that pluvial 2013 season, it would be mission accomplished in some circles.

spelly, good work as always. Muchas gracias.

One thing - is the middle column really the median, or should that be the average? The middle figure exceeds the final figure in all cases, which is what I would expect if this were the average.

@JK

If it hadn't have been 2014, it most likely would have been 2015. Pretty obvious that the ABC is pulling out of covering state Football. They were on the verge of pulling out previously, and given the budget cuts covering state Football on a Saturday afternoon was hardly going to remain a high priority for them. They have now pulled out of the WAFL for 2015. Thank goodness the SANFL secured the Seven deal!

Pseudo wrote:spelly, good work as always. Muchas gracias.

One thing - is the middle column really the median, or should that be the average? The middle figure exceeds the final figure in all cases, which is what I would expect if this were the average.

Sorry, yes that is the average - I swapped the columns around but not the header

2013 Ladder at end of minor round:

Norwood 34
Eagles 26
West 24
Central 24
North 22

Port 16

2013 final 5 know reasonably early on, and not exactly a promoters dream. However Norths barnstorming finals campaign did reignite interest.
.......

2014:
Port 24
Norwood 22
Sturt 22
South 22
Eagles 20

North 18
Central 18

3 of the top 4 supporting clubs are in the top 3. Up until the last round 5th was being chased by North, Centrals and Eagles. Taking into account Norths finals campaign of last year, this was a much more interesting year.

The question is, with such a scenario involving the clubs with a greater level of support, why would we not expect a much higher attendance? Do those who support the reserves introduction really expect keen followers of the SANFL to just have the argument hijacked by simplistic tallying and averaging.

The pity is, if we had this scenario as a non reserves competition, having ridded ourselves of the licences and the exposure to the Power debt, allow the SA footy scene to enjoy the success of the Adelaide Oval and the clubs to have a stabilising year with a confident revenue stream, who knows what the increase to the crowds could have been.

matt35 wrote:@JK

If it hadn't have been 2014, it most likely would have been 2015. Pretty obvious that the ABC is pulling out of covering state Football. They were on the verge of pulling out previously, and given the budget cuts covering state Football on a Saturday afternoon was hardly going to remain a high priority for them. They have now pulled out of the WAFL for 2015. Thank goodness the SANFL secured the Seven deal!

With the Abbott budget I agree that the ABC probably would not have gone much further than 2015 with the SANFL although that is conjecture. However the SANFL may have been in a much more healthier budgetary position to up the ante if we had remained reserves free. I wonder what will happen with the VFL and the Queensland and NSW televised state leagues. Does not seem to be a great deal of pressure there at this stage.

As for the 7 deal, the SANFL is exposed to a relatively untested market, and should that rapidly alter next year they are exposed to the whole lot, not just a co contribution. I hope the clubs are benefitting from the increased ratings of this year; will be interesting come years end.

matt35 wrote:@JK

If it hadn't have been 2014, it most likely would have been 2015. Pretty obvious that the ABC is pulling out of covering state Football. They were on the verge of pulling out previously, and given the budget cuts covering state Football on a Saturday afternoon was hardly going to remain a high priority for them. They have now pulled out of the WAFL for 2015. Thank goodness the SANFL secured the Seven deal!

So now you're moving on to a different argument .. No Crows or Port = no channel 7, typing one handed if you think otherwise. And that TV coverage has had a detrimental effect on the crowd for the game as per my initial post.

wild dog wrote:

matt35 wrote:@JK

If it hadn't have been 2014, it most likely would have been 2015. Pretty obvious that the ABC is pulling out of covering state Football. They were on the verge of pulling out previously, and given the budget cuts covering state Football on a Saturday afternoon was hardly going to remain a high priority for them. They have now pulled out of the WAFL for 2015. Thank goodness the SANFL secured the Seven deal!

With the Abbott budget I agree that the ABC probably would not have gone much further than 2015 with the SANFL although that is conjecture. However the SANFL may have been in a much more healthier budgetary position to up the ante if we had remained reserves free. I wonder what will happen with the VFL and the Queensland and NSW televised state leagues. Does not seem to be a great deal of pressure there at this stage.

As for the 7 deal, the SANFL is exposed to a relatively untested market, and should that rapidly alter next year they are exposed to the whole lot, not just a co contribution. I hope the clubs are benefitting from the increased ratings of this year; will be interesting come years end.

All of this gets away from the initial discussion regarding attendance .. If the ABC covers the CD v Nor game in Rd2, or there is no coverage at all, the game starts at a normal time and gets a better crowd. The merits of whether the deal with channel 7 is beneficial or not is a separate debate.