fred bills & the count

[nickname]

In a way he didn't even need to have a count. The rule was (and maybe still is) that you needed the permission of the opposing Captain in order to bring on a replacement player while an injured player was being removed by stretcher. Torrens had brought Bills on while the injured Cassin was still on the ground without asking for Loveday's permission, therefore they must have had 19 players on the field.

I was at the Seconds game against Woodville too, at Woodville Oval, from the start. It's a bizarre experience to see your side's score wiped, one I wish the Eagles' fans had endured.

[FOURTH ESTATE]

If today's rules did apply back then, a captain of a side can ask for a count then the umpire is obliged to call one. In this case it sounds like Bennett failed to follow through on if the West Adelaide captain called for the count if todays rules were in vogue back then.

One must consider that North Adelaide did defeat West Adelaide by 7 goals at FP in round 11 thus probably justifying thier position in the 5 but were the worst side ever to make 5th spot.

[nickname]

I'm pretty sure Loveday did call for a count. In fact, contrary to Mal's report my memory (which may be wrong, I'm not 100% on this) is that a count of sorts did take place, shambolic though it was. Perhaps Magarey Legend can consult his video of the incident and clarify this for us.

[CK]

According to the book "Tales Of The Inner Sanctum", which had interviews with all major players in this story, including umpire Robin Bennet (it is spelled with one T, not two), West vice captain John Hayes was the first to request a count. In captain Bob Loveday's words, Hayes "...was up in arms straight away, letting me, the umpire and everyone else know they had nineteen on the ground. He was yelling everywhere, insisting on a count". It was at this point that Loveday originally asked for the count.

At this point, Bennet stopped play, and the players began to line up, before Torrens players "started scattering all over the ground...only then did Bennet asked if I wanted to proceed with the count. I said no, so the game resumed..."

The trigger point for Bennet's question, was that he had been approached by goal umpire Lance Holden, who stated to Bennet that, at no point had John Cassin been on the ground at any stage to necessitate a count. At this point, Bennet "ran back to Loveday and told him what Holden had said. Loveday didn't remonstrate. Then I restarted the game."

If all of the memories above are correct, it would seem that no count actually took place.

[nickname]

That's right I think CK, I do remember some of the players lining up though.
I'm not sure what the goal umpire means by saying Cassin wasn't on the ground to necessitate a count, though I think there might have been some conjecture about whether Cassin was in the field of play or outside the boundary line when Bills came on.

[Adelaide Hawk]

That's right I think CK, I do remember some of the players lining up though.
I'm not sure what the goal umpire means by saying Cassin wasn't on the ground to necessitate a count, though I think there might have been some conjecture about whether Cassin was in the field of play or outside the boundary line when Bills came on.

What the goal umpire meant was by the time they had lined up the players, Cassin had already been taken from the field. There is no conjecture, Bills definitely entered the field before Cassin was removed. In those days there was confusion as to whether a player on a stretcher needed to be completely off the ground before a replacement could enter the field. It was good to see common sense prevailed by not persisting with the count.

[nickname]

That's right I think CK, I do remember some of the players lining up though.
I'm not sure what the goal umpire means by saying Cassin wasn't on the ground to necessitate a count, though I think there might have been some conjecture about whether Cassin was in the field of play or outside the boundary line when Bills came on.

What the goal umpire meant was by the time they had lined up the players, Cassin had already been taken from the field. There is no conjecture, Bills definitely entered the field before Cassin was removed. In those days there was confusion as to whether a player on a stretcher needed to be completely off the ground before a replacement could enter the field. It was good to see common sense prevailed by not persisting with the count.

AH I'm not so sure about that. The goal umpire says (assuming it's an actual quote) Cassin wasn't on the ground "to necessitate a count", i.e to trigger one. He's not saying he wasn't there at the time of the proposed count. And as for there being no conjecture - Bills certainly ran onto the oval while Cassin was on the oval, but I seem to remember there was some debate about whether Cassin was inside or outside the boundary line at the time, and therefore whether he was "in the field of play". In fact if memory serves, the trainers moved Cassin over the boundary line a little after Bills ran on.

[Adelaide Hawk]

No, what he is saying is by the time the count was called for, Cassin had already left the arena. He's not saying he wasn't still on when Bills entered the field.

[nickname]

Well if that's what he's intended to say, 'necessitate' is the wrong word.

[CK]

I should make a clarification here - any time I have used exact quotes from the accounts, I have placed them in quotes. Any other words are mine, so my apologies for using the word necessitate in that case.

BTW, Bennet did say that he was still not sure how Holden could possibly have seen all what he said, from the position he was in, but he accepted it as a trigger point to call off the count.

[nickname]

Fair enough CK.
One obvious question is how did Bennet allow Cassin to be removed from the oval before the count was held. He was on the ground for quite some time. And even then he could have allowed Cassin to leave and still added him to the number on the field. (But seing it was 1975, maybe it's time to let it go.)

[spell_check]

I would really, really, love to see this match - it's out there somewhere. Probably said this before, but they had a little snippet of the incident before the 1998 Magarey Medal count.

[FOURTH ESTATE]

I was told several years ago that all the footage from the sixties and early 70's was lost in a fire at channel 9 or 7 is this true if so what a shame we then only have our memories of these games to live by.

[wedgetail]

Was at the game as a 14 y.o. and an amazing sight it was. One of the stories that makes the history of the SANFL so colourful and great. If I remember correctly, Gerrard Noonan and Milan Faletic ran down the players' race but the door was locked and couldn't get in. It would have been a tradgedy if Torrens couldn't win for Freddy's last game given his service to the club so I'm glad the result stood. Still have a vivid picture in my mind of Dare jumping the fence just as I have of Robert Muir doing the same in the NW pocket several years later chasing a fan who threw a full can at him. Great memories!!

[bays2011]

I would really, really, love to see this match - it's out there somewhere. Probably said this before, but they had a little snippet of the incident before the 1998 Magarey Medal count.

Here you go Spelly, just a 5 minite snippet which includes the whole extra player count or non-count... by the way what round number was this and was this also Fred Bills' last game?

[CENTURION]

my apologies ... I misread the title and thought the swear filter was busted

[GWW]

Thanks for that bays2011, its awesome watching this type of footage. Loved some of the hairstyles too, including the bloke with the paddlepop lion look

Can anyone identify who the commentators were apart from Ian Aitken?

[McAlmanac]

Thanks for that bays2011, its awesome watching this type of footage. Loved some of the hairstyles too, including the bloke with the paddlepop lion look

Can anyone identify who the commentators were apart from Ian Aitken?

Max Hall and Wally May.

The Paddlepop Lion is Ian Wallace, who was a fiery customer. In fact, with John Cassin and Henry Dabrowski in the team, West Torrens may have finished bottom that year but sides would possibly have "earned" their wins.

[GWW]

Thanks McAlmanac, I thought one or both of them might have been the commentators

[spell_check]

I would really, really, love to see this match - it's out there somewhere. Probably said this before, but they had a little snippet of the incident before the 1998 Magarey Medal count.

Here you go Spelly, just a 5 minite snippet which includes the whole extra player count or non-count... by the way what round number was this and was this also Fred Bills' last game?

Bloody awesome!!!! You (and whoever gave you the footage) are legends! Many thanks, I'll dafinitely have to show Dad this!