Tony Abbott - Leader of the Opposition!

[The Yetti]

Top 5 points for today.
1.Who would have thought that Climate change would have such an impact on Federal Politics?

2. Do we need to change our National Anthem and add Climate change in with Droughts and Flooding rain

3. Who would have thought an Oxford Scholar would be brought down by Wilson Tuckey and his dinosaur mates.

4. Joe Hockey will need some new shoes, after shooting himself in the foot.

5. Another 4 years for Kevin 07 to say alot and do absolutely nothing. Does anyone know if any thing has been implemented from the 1 week mind fest when hundreds and thousands went to Canberra to come up with ideas? Just the on e...it was Climate Change

[Jimmy_041]

Just another stale face to lead the Liberals.

At least Hockey has a bit of go about him.

Good bloke is Joe. I know his lookalike and he is a legend down these parts

Bum Crack?

[Jimmy_041]

I think the Libs found themselves in a very difficult position, which Labor/Rudd/Wong exploited to probably even better potential than they ever thought they could.

They went to the election with a promise to tackle climate change and overhaul work choices. They won.

The ETS has not been well explained however and the impact for households is still a bit of an unknown. It is businesses that are most worried and they have been hounding Liberal pollies to take a tough stance in opposition.

Turnbull gave his word to tackle the problem on behalf of the party. It is not so much that the party has deserted Turnbull, but that individual pollies are shi-t scared of losing their own electoral support and self-preservation has kicked in.

This exercise has been a political windfall for Labor. Rudd has achieved his aim of getting rid of Turnbull AND split the party. His biggest disappointment is that he has not been here to see it unfold with his own eyes.

As for the Libs, they have to make it clear that their division has been in relation to a single issue only (notwithstanding that Turnbull has been in strife since Utegate and the ETS has provided the means to an end for some).

There is a message in this for Labor though - they cannot actually afford to ignore the fact that the Libs were being besieged by their supporters on the ETS issue. That indicates that notwithstanding their mandate to tackle climate change, they could fall in to their own trap if they fail to ensure that climate change is tackled responsibly and that householders (who are only responsible for 3.5% of carbon emissions) do not bear the brunt of fixing the problems. They must continue to listen to the people - regardless of their ideology - or ignore them at their potential peril. Realistically, it would be hard to think of a better govt Minister to have on this issue than the measured Penny Wong, but whilst she can handle the policy, the govt also has to handle the political implications of policy decisions and right now, there are still a lot of people who want climate change addressed but have next to no understanding of the ETS of the implications for them as individuals.

Well put Squawk - totally agree

[silicone skyline]

Just another stale face to lead the Liberals.

At least Hockey has a bit of go about him.

Good bloke is Joe. I know his lookalike and he is a legend down these parts

Bum Crack?

Bum Crack looks like Joe Hockey

[Jimmy_041]

That's scary

Those sri lankan girls were lucky to get so much media with these two having done it all before

[Psyber]

The Libs behaviour now is reminiscent of the Beasley, Crean, Beasley, Latham, shuffle a few years back - I'm not sure exactly what he order was.
It is similarly self-destructive, and their problem is where is their K Rudd the various interest groups will agree to unite behind coming from.

[Gozu]

Now that the troglodytes are in control with Nick Minchin's anti-science beliefs it proves how unelectable the Liberal Party now are, stick a fork in them. "Nick Minchin was a sceptic on tobacco":

"It was like going into a timewarp, because the case against the tobacco industry was so well-established by then," Professor Chapman said. "Minchin represented the far end of antipathy towards any intervention in the tobacco industry."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politic ... 5805535960

[Jimmy_041]

The Libs behaviour now is reminiscent of the Beasley, Crean, Beasley, Latham, shuffle a few years back - I'm not sure exactly what he order was.
It is similarly self-destructive, and their problem is where is their K Rudd the various interest groups will agree to unite behind coming from.

He will emerge in 5 years just like Rudd did - as you said, Labor were a joke for so long. A few people on here have selective memories - the Libs expected Costello to lead, and have only had 2 years to begin sorting out the future

[Psyber]

Gozu, the case against the tobacco industry was established when a journal article in The Lancet in 1903 demonstrated the link between smoking and heart disease.
There was a lot of resistance to accepting and acting on it by governments of many flavours around the world who were more interested in the tax revenue than ending this menace, and made only token gestures towards health preservation. This menace to health is still permitted in public places in Australia so long as they are nominally "open" and the tax revenue still flows to the Australian government.
[I always argued smoking should only be allowed between consenting adults in private.]

Now we are in danger of perpetuating the pollution cycle by turning it into a revenue stream, instead of putting money into its elimination..

[Jimmy_041]

Abbott's Chinese power challenge
7:03 AM, 2 Dec 2009 Robert Gottliebsen

The vast majority of Australians want carbon emissions reduced and, whether we like it or not, we are headed for some form of emissions trading scheme. But what most Australians still do not realise is that the Rudd/Turnbull emission trading scheme is a very poor way of achieving lower emissions and theoretically might even back-fire and not achieve anything like the emission cuts being targeted.

The Liberals are in disarray and will not find it easy to put forward any coherent policy. It’s a long shot, but if Tony Abbott could actually get his act together he could put forward a carbon reduction policy that was far more effective and far less painful to Australia than the Rudd/Turnbull scheme.

I have written two commentaries which set out how this politically driven scheme was designed to take money from business and distribute it to lower and middle income groups; plus, how it will destroy some of the sources of capital required to erect low-carbon power plants; and how the Commonwealth could be forced to guarantee $7 billion in bank loans to brown coal power stations which may encourage a much longer period of brown coal power generation than is sensible in a carbon constrained world. (Turnbull fell for Rudd's ETS con, December 1; The carbon horror show, November 27).

Because the Rudd/Turnbull scheme was all about politics, few of the actual measures being proposed were debated. Assuming the legislation is stalled, Tony Abbott should book himself a trip to China and schedule it after Copenhagen. Abbott should examine the Chinese plans and then, with advisers, begin to synchronize Australian carbon reduction with our largest trading partner.

But there is help available from other quarters. China, Japan and India have major utilities that would be prepared to invest in Australia and help us reduce our carbon emissions if there was regulatory certainty and if they had not been virtually run out of town by the Rudd/Turnbull ETS scheme. The Victorian government put a whole series of options to Kevin Rudd which would have transformed the ETS but they were ignored – at least until the last minute.

If Abbott does his homework and seeks help, at the next election we might even have a real debate.

Rudd may still win the election but if he was forced to defend the flaw-riddled Rudd/Turnbull scheme against a properly devised alternative, the election would be a lot closer than anyone currently imagines.

But don’t hold your breath. There are a large number of Liberals who believe that carbon emissions are not creating global warming. They may be right or wrong, but that is not the view of a majority of Australians.

The majority of Australians want carbon reduced so the Liberals need a workable scheme that will achieve that goal – this kind of task is never easy in opposition and is even harder when your party is so divided.

[Gozu]

There is a message in this for Labor though - they cannot actually afford to ignore the fact that the Libs were being besieged by their supporters on the ETS issue.

Yes they can here's why, "An ETS voter driven backlash? Polling says no"

"That deluge of complaints they experienced last week wasn’t representative of anything other than a small, angry and noisy conservative rump."

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/12/02/com ... g-says-no/

[mick]

There is a message in this for Labor though - they cannot actually afford to ignore the fact that the Libs were being besieged by their supporters on the ETS issue.

Yes they can here's why, "An ETS voter driven backlash? Polling says no"

"That deluge of complaints they experienced last week wasn’t representative of anything other than a small, angry and noisy conservative rump."

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/12/02/com ... g-says-no/

I guess the acid test to this idea, will be the double dissolution (if it happens). Don't underestimate short term self interest as far as voters are concerned.

[Gozu]

I guess the acid test to this idea, will be the double dissolution (if it happens). Don't underestimate short term self interest as far as voters are concerned.

Nah you're right never underestimate the hip pocket nerve but that's why I think there isn't much chance they'll go for a DD (Gillard said today they're going to re-submit it in February) because they know the Libs & News Ltd will try and run a massive scare campaign.

[fish]

If the government went back to the drawing board and came up with a climate change scheme that was supported by the Greens and Nick Xenophon, they would then have 38 Senate votes in favour. This would be equal to the combined 38 held by the Liberals (37) and Family First (1).

Question: What happens if a Senate vote is tied 38 to 38?

[GWW]

Question: What happens if a Senate vote is tied 38 to 38?

I don't have a definite answer to that question, but my guess would be that the Senate's version of the Speaker, the President, would have the casting vote in that scenario.

[Squawk]

There is a message in this for Labor though - they cannot actually afford to ignore the fact that the Libs were being besieged by their supporters on the ETS issue.

Yes they can here's why, "An ETS voter driven backlash? Polling says no"

"That deluge of complaints they experienced last week wasn’t representative of anything other than a small, angry and noisy conservative rump."

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/12/02/com ... g-says-no/

I guess the acid test to this idea, will be the double dissolution (if it happens). Don't underestimate short term self interest as far as voters are concerned.

Yes it will Mick. And Gozu, even a small, angry and noisy conservative rump can be full of a lot of splinters. Clearly, regardless of volume, there was significant influence wielded and it would be safe to assume that these influences have their own far-reaching influences.

Someone further up made the point that "who would have thought climate change as an issue could do all this". Answer? No one I suspect!

[Squawk]

The Libs behaviour now is reminiscent of the Beasley, Crean, Beasley, Latham, shuffle a few years back - I'm not sure exactly what he order was.
It is similarly self-destructive, and their problem is where is their K Rudd the various interest groups will agree to unite behind coming from.

Also reminiscent of the Howard, Peacock and Hewson shuffle too....

Ironically, the Rudd govt has not been inpenetrable, its just that the Libs have been spending too much time in their own room of mirrors instead of being on periscope patrol with their fingers on the missile launch button. Their best line of attack is to go around the PM - he is an incredible centralist when it comes to power and decision making, and rather than shooting arrows at his parapet from afar, they should be draining the castle moat.

[Gozu]

Yes it will Mick. And Gozu, even a small, angry and noisy conservative rump can be full of a lot of splinters. Clearly, regardless of volume, there was significant influence wielded and it would be safe to assume that these influences have their own far-reaching influences.

Someone further up made the point that "who would have thought climate change as an issue could do all this". Answer? No one I suspect!

All of this noise is about trying to hold on to the Liberal base. I've heard a lot of right-wing commentary about how Turnbull was starting to appeal to Labor voters too much so that's why he needed to go, absolute madness. Labor voters by definition are the very people the Libs have to start trying to appeal to to have any chance of getting back into government anytime soon.

The far-right of their party refused to accept the party's wishes to pass the ETS (Bolt got shot down on Insiders trying to claim the party as a whole didn't want an ETS) so then pulled the mass resignation stunt effectively spitting the dummy and destroying their own party until they got their way. That's why they now have the unelectable Tony Abbott as leader despite the polls saying he was the least desirable of the three candidates.

Speaking of that "significant influence" I've heard that this tactic of bomarding the hell out of MP's with an extreme amount of protest emails is straight out of the Fox News/Republicans playbook. I don't know how true that is but would hardly be surprisingy. Supposedly more than 400,000 emails were sent to the right Liberal MP's during this wave of unhinged anger.

The far-right LaRouchites (followers of Lyndon LaRouche)/Citizen Electoral Council/black helicopter types have always maintained that climate change is some massive conspiracy in an attempt to bring about one world government in a New World Order...or something and usually the Greys & the Reptillians are in there somewhere too. These people have been peddling this rubbish for years and have no doubt they would've played a part in all this too. Hell I just picked up The Advertiser the other day (Tuesday) looked in the letters section and what do you know there's a letter from some pickle talking up the "prophetic" genius of LaRouche in "exposing" all this years ago.

One interstate moderate Liberal MP has supposedly said off the record that you should see the kinds of people they get turning up to Liberal party branch meetings. Call me crazy but I just wouldn't being placing too much stock in the demands of a handful of frothing far-right lunatics.

[fish]

If the government went back to the drawing board and came up with a climate change scheme that was supported by the Greens and Nick Xenophon, they would then have 38 Senate votes in favour. This would be equal to the combined 38 held by the Liberals (37) and Family First (1).

Question: What happens if a Senate vote is tied 38 to 38?

Just did some research and found this on the Senate website: If the vote on a question is tied in the Senate, it is ‘resolved in the negative’; that is, it is lost.

[Leaping Lindner]

Just over 48 hours and already Julie Bishop wants AWAs back on the agenda. These cretins obviously have very short memories. Um....you lost government because of them....remember????