bye bye Howard

[Sheik Yerbouti]

So you voted against a republic because of that even though you support it?

God save our Queen

Yes, absolutely. So did plenty of others.

[Dogwatcher]

So many confusing statements in that lot Sheik.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

So many confusing statements in that lot Sheik.

Yeah I know, made sense to me but...........
I've just got a bug up my arse over being told who to hate or how to vote by certain groups.
As said, I do like a lot of the arguments & views on the threads here & elsewhere by the great unwashed, their the one's I'll pay attention to as compared to the John Pilgers of this world.

[mick]

I also did 4 years at uni, plus post-graduate studies, and my job is not blue-collar.

That'd explain the original post then.

Howard - People are looking forward to chucking you out on your obnoxious behind as soon as you are forced to give us the chance. Good riddance, ya scum!

This is the thing that gets me. The most vocal haters of the conservatives & ones who get all the airtime are either ex pats who give jack shit back to the country, uni students who garble whatever's been shoveled down their throat by Professor Che, or the all time favourite actors, artists, poets & musicians. Why are the most useless members of society are the most vocal?

Case in point. The referendum on The Republic.
Home & hosed, no chance of the monarchy getting a look in. Polls, media, even in the pubs hardly anyone under the age of 60 was going to go against a republic. Unfortunately some advertising bright spark decided to con the Republican movement into grabbing every Sydney minor celebrity to look down their noses at Joe Slobanski & demand that we vote in the republic in their snide condescending manner. That was the turning point for me, & I guess a shitload of others, the republic movement was smashed. (& don't try that ''it was the way the question was asked'' crap, does'nt wash).

So even if I suddenly found a social conscience & decided to give Labour a go (which I did in the last state election) I'd be put off in a heartbeat by soapie stars, B grade celebrity ex pats who has'nt lived here for years, someone who can sing, or a bloke who by chance likes to paint or write a book cause of a $50,000 yearly grant hogging space on my telly preaching that I vote the way he's demanding because his views more important than the Fred Smeggs of the world.

Well reasoned arguments on this & the other thread are fine, & well worth a read, even if their 180 from my own views. Be buggered though if I'll be browbeaten by academics & artists looking down upon people who actually work for a crust & pay for the living of these parasites.

Post of the century Why is that the Howard haters always have to descend into abusive language to get their views across? John Howard like it or not will be judged by history to be a very significant and possibly great PM, ten years of economic growth unparalleled since the 1950s. His record with regard to East Timor's independence has gone some ways to righting the wrongs after the East Timor people were betrayed by the Whitlam government in the 1970s and successive Australian goverments of both colours, he has enforced our immigration laws, so that those who wish to come here are screened and processed in the proper way. He has retained the good ideas from the Hawke government ie. medicare and compulsory superannuation. On the negative side, Iraq is a monumental stuff up and the IR laws are too extreme. It is very easy to dismiss the archetect of our current success as "scum" . It annoys me greatly that many of the educated dimiss, the thoughts of those less educated are born of ignorance because they are not in line with theirs. Like the Shiek nothing puts me off a candidate faster than so called celebrity status ie. Cheryl "turncoat" Kernot and Peter "backflip" Garrett.

[Sploosh]

Well, my mentioning that I have an education seems to have attracted a bit of comment.

Firstly, I posted that detail not as a smug "in your face" thing, but in reply to Coorong, who inferred that I am uneducated. Not once have I linked education, or lack thereof, to ignorance or the value of someone's thoughts.

Secondly, it's none of my business what may or may attract other people to vote a certain way or not. I'm not canvassing for votes, nor running for government. I have no illusions that one thread on a web site will change anyone's ideas in the slightest. Just as shopping lists of Howard's supposed achievements could never influence the way I will vote. Everyone is free to think whatever they want, and express it how they see fit. That's what I did, and what other people are doing. Election time is the only time that our opinions actually count. We'll have to see what happens on the day.

Thirdly, I seriously doubt that Howard reads SAFooty.

[am Bays]

I also did 4 years at uni, plus post-graduate studies, and my job is not blue-collar.

That'd explain the original post then.

Howard - People are looking forward to chucking you out on your obnoxious behind as soon as you are forced to give us the chance. Good riddance, ya scum!

This is the thing that gets me. The most vocal haters of the conservatives & ones who get all the airtime are either ex pats who give jack shit back to the country, uni students who garble whatever's been shoveled down their throat by Professor Che, or the all time favourite actors, artists, poets & musicians. Why are the most useless members of society are the most vocal?

Case in point. The referendum on The Republic.
Home & hosed, no chance of the monarchy getting a look in. Polls, media, even in the pubs hardly anyone under the age of 60 was going to go against a republic. Unfortunately some advertising bright spark decided to con the Republican movement into grabbing every Sydney minor celebrity to look down their noses at Joe Slobanski & demand that we vote in the republic in their snide condescending manner. That was the turning point for me, & I guess a shitload of others, the republic movement was smashed. (& don't try that ''it was the way the question was asked'' crap, does'nt wash).

So even if I suddenly found a social conscience & decided to give Labour a go (which I did in the last state election) I'd be put off in a heartbeat by soapie stars, B grade celebrity ex pats who has'nt lived here for years, someone who can sing, or a bloke who by chance likes to paint or write a book cause of a $50,000 yearly grant hogging space on my telly preaching that I vote the way he's demanding because his views more important than the Fred Smeggs of the world.

Well reasoned arguments on this & the other thread are fine, & well worth a read, even if their 180 from my own views. Be buggered though if I'll be browbeaten by academics & artists looking down upon people who actually work for a crust & pay for the living of these parasites.

What Mick said.....

As a liberal voter at this point in time the IR laws, the pandering to Bush (mind you it has helped give us additional access to the biggest economy in the world which helps my farming friends here in the Wimmera), and IRAQ cause me grave concerns, that make me question the values of people running the liberal party.

Then I look at interest rates (as a mortgagee they are bloody important to me), the diversity of choice in the education system that if i decide to send my kid to a relatively poorly resourced private school (not one of the traditional big ones) - like my wife parents did as blue collar workers, the enforcing of our immigration laws so the cue jumpers don't walk in willy-nilly (yes I know some genuine ones have been caught up in the mess but don't blame the government blame the people smugglers), the retiring of the goverment debt through surplus budgets making our country economically stronger especially through the Asian meltdown of 1999, the first home owners scheme that helps own their own home despite State Governments getting record grants from the Commonwealth under the GST yet they won't cut Stamp duty.....

Well my mind is made up, not that my vote counts living in the safest Coalition seat in the country (Mallee 25%)

PS Anyone know that for every $1 of GST revenue raised in SA $1.34 comes back to the State government, in Victoria and NSW for every $1 of GST raised only 70 c comes back to teh state government......

If you wonder why schools, hospitals and police are underfunded in SA I suggest you look elsewhere for blame rather than Canberra......

[McAlmanac]

Then I look at.... the diversity of choice in the education system that if i decide to send my kid to a relatively poorly resourced private school (not one of the traditional big ones) - like my wife parents did as blue collar workers....

Can you explain that bit? It didn't seem to make sense grammatically.

[heater31]

So you voted against a republic because of that even though you support it?

God save our Queen

Yes, absolutely. So did plenty of others.

from memory the republic vote was back in 99, being too young to have my say in this issue it got plenty of air time at school. the disscussion eventually drifted home to my old man who told me that he was all for a republic but not the alternative that was put forward. IIRC it was an elected government who then elected the President. which is bullsh*t why have a bunch of F*ckwits elect the most powerful position in the country. If I was able to vote at the time I would have went the same way.


The polls that were conducted back then would have been based on do you support a republic? most people would have said yes. If they asked do you support the option put forward in that vote then I bet my house that the results would have been alot different.


Back to the topic at hand........


Labor is making all these promises spending money but where is it all going to come from I ask?????? until Mr Rudd shows his hand to the australian people where is dosh is going to come from he should not count on my vote.

I relatively young and have a massive HECS debt (25K plus) and would like to buy a house within the next 5-7 years and small fluctuations in interest rates dont worry me as Im not one of those wankers who over commits. but with a labor govt running the place I dont think the majority of mortgagees in this country could handle 3 to 5% jumps per year. So Howdard's pledge of low interest rates is still true at this stage. The other issues whilst important economic policy far out-weighs all of them put together

[am Bays]

Then I look at.... the diversity of choice in the education system that if i decide to send my kid to a relatively poorly resourced private school (not one of the traditional big ones) - like my wife parents did as blue collar workers....I can

Can you explain that bit? It didn't seem to make sense grammatically.

Thats because I went to a government school in the NT

What I am trying to say is that some of the smaller/newer private schools don't have the resources of the traditional "big" private schools, what the government has done through its private school grants is make private school education more affordable to those that choose the send their children to a private school. If the school didn't receive those federal grants those people (like my wife parents who made the sacrifice to send their kids to a private school even though would be classed as blue collar workers) wouldn't be able to have the luxury of choosing which school their kids went to because the fees would be to high.

[Magpiespower]

So you voted against a republic because of that even though you support it?

God save our Queen

Yes, absolutely. So did plenty of others.

Pretty much says it all.

Must agree the people/bodies representing the Republican movement were its/our own worst enemy.

Though Howard didn't help with his referendum bamboozlement.

[am Bays]

So you voted against a republic because of that even though you support it?

God save our Queen

Yes, absolutely. So did plenty of others.

Pretty much says it all.

Must agree the people/bodies representing the Republican movement were its/our own worst enemy.

Though Howard didn't help with his referendum bamboozlement.

For those that watched the republican Convention, the best model was dissmissed first and formost by the delegates. The best Republic model was one propsed by the Former chief justice of Victoria Robert McGhavie who proposed that Parliament nominate four people for President to be decided on by a vote by the Australian people. The debate against the direct election model was that you would get another politician in charge rather than an eminant relatively non-political Australian as we currently do. The referendum was lost becasue people wanted a say in who they wanted as President not to have Parliament decide who it should be. The ARM was so arrogant because it thought it knew best what we wanted (Parliament elect the President by 2/3rd majority) hence the referendum was lost the moment that decision was made.

So the McGhavie model offered the best of both worlds (non political eminant Australain but voted on by - but of the three models put to the convention it was the first one eliminated.

MP how can you say Howard bamboozled the process?? With a virtually tied vote at the convention (pro vs non republicans) he actually stood up and made the statement that we will have the referendum and give the people their say. He then virtually stayed out of the debate leaving it to teh ARM and AFCM to battle it out. If he wanted to he could have killed it stone dead at teh convention when the delegates couldn't make up there mind what they wanted. It was teh ARM that bamboozled the debate.

[therisingblues]

I also did 4 years at uni, plus post-graduate studies, and my job is not blue-collar.

That'd explain the original post then.

Howard - People are looking forward to chucking you out on your obnoxious behind as soon as you are forced to give us the chance. Good riddance, ya scum!

This is the thing that gets me. The most vocal haters of the conservatives & ones who get all the airtime are either ex pats who give jack shit back to the country, uni students who garble whatever's been shoveled down their throat by Professor Che, or the all time favourite actors, artists, poets & musicians. Why are the most useless members of society are the most vocal?

Case in point. The referendum on The Republic.
Home & hosed, no chance of the monarchy getting a look in. Polls, media, even in the pubs hardly anyone under the age of 60 was going to go against a republic. Unfortunately some advertising bright spark decided to con the Republican movement into grabbing every Sydney minor celebrity to look down their noses at Joe Slobanski & demand that we vote in the republic in their snide condescending manner. That was the turning point for me, & I guess a shitload of others, the republic movement was smashed. (& don't try that ''it was the way the question was asked'' crap, does'nt wash).

So even if I suddenly found a social conscience & decided to give Labour a go (which I did in the last state election) I'd be put off in a heartbeat by soapie stars, B grade celebrity ex pats who has'nt lived here for years, someone who can sing, or a bloke who by chance likes to paint or write a book cause of a $50,000 yearly grant hogging space on my telly preaching that I vote the way he's demanding because his views more important than the Fred Smeggs of the world.

Well reasoned arguments on this & the other thread are fine, & well worth a read, even if their 180 from my own views. Be buggered though if I'll be browbeaten by academics & artists looking down upon people who actually work for a crust & pay for the living of these parasites.

There's a lot of interest there Sheik.
Assumptions that people overseas give "jack shit" back to their country. Uni students just garble whatever's been shoveled down their throats and that favourite actors, artists, poets and musicians, along with the others you mentioned are "the most useless members of society".
You then go on to complain that you didn't vote for the republic because you didn't like the advertising. I don't know what connection you infer to "Sheik Yerbouti" but I think Frank Zappa would have a good laugh at somebody such as yourself who is so inhibited by what the colourful images on the TV tell him to think, that he does just the opposite to spite them, even if it means going against his own beliefs. Disliking popular culture is one thing, allowing it to become a hatred that dictates your thoughts and actions is going a bit overboard. But you are entitled to your opinion, and as an ex-pat, uni-graduate who is also non-blue collar (as Sploosh says, I don't know why that has anything to do with voting against Howard), I am entitled to mine. No offence intended, and none taken, just amused.
For the record, I want Howard out for refusing to acknowledge the Kyoto treaty, and creating a quasi-51st U.S state out of my homeland. The issue of the environment and Australia's recent complicity in its destruction are things that will far outweigh any economic advantages we may gain in the short term, waiting for scraps to fall from Bush's table.

[redandblack]

Sheik, I'm still amazed that you voted against your own beliefs because of the arrogance of people who were for a republic.

You then decided to support the humble Sophie Panopolous, David Flint, Alexander Downer, etc, etc.

Strange.

[Wedgie]

Sheik, I'm still amazed that you voted against your own beliefs because of the arrogance of people who were for a republic.

You then decided to support the humble Sophie Panopolous, David Flint, Alexander Downer, etc, etc.

Strange.

I don't think its strange, hypothetically if a bunch of dickheads suddenly agreed with something I agreed with I'd question my original thoughts in no time.
Quite often even on this website I've had to question my stance on something when certain others have jumped onboard the same idea!

Serious question about Howard's IR Laws, does anyone know one person personally who was impacted on by these laws yet?

PS I voted for the Monarchy but mainly because of the only choice of Republic we had to vote for which didn't appeal to me, still not sure if I would have changed my vote if a better model was put up. My thoughts were "if it aint broke don't fix it", as a mortgage payer I'll probably have similar thoughts at the next election. Better the devil you know.

[redandblack]

I wouldn't have thought you'd think the people in favour of the republic were any more dickheads than the names I've mentioned, Wedgie.

I'm surprised you'd want to have an English Monarch as your Head of State instead of any Australian under any republican model.

It's a strange thing when your own Head of State gives another country's cricketers a medal for beating us, but presumably you don't trust us to be in charge of ourselves.

These are genuine questions, I'd be interested in your reasons for thinking otherwise.

[zipzap]

The Republican movement lost me when Turnbill and McGuire commandeered it. Steve Vizard for President anyone?

[mick]

I voted for a republic, however, I had a number of reservations the major one being Paul Keating was in favour of it and the second was if we had a directly elected President we could end up with the likes of Shane Warne as president, Eddie McGuire I could live with but not Warney

[topsywaldron]

The most vocal haters of the conservatives & ones who get all the airtime

Bollocks.

Akkerman, Albrechtsen, Bolt, Sheridan, Pearson, Windschuttle etc etc.

I could go on but the list above has made me feel nauseous.

[JK]

I can honestly say I have NFI which way I voted in the referendum, too long ago

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Apologies DB, I not sure how to do the seperate quote thingy.

There's a lot of interest there Sheik.
Assumptions that people overseas give "jack shit" back to their country. Uni students just garble whatever's been shoveled down their throats and that favourite actors, artists, poets and musicians, along with the others you mentioned are "the most useless members of society".

Twas mainly aimed at latter section, artists ect. The opening tirade on this thread though was a backhanded swipe at anyone who voted the conservatives, I know the thread starter from the Rooster Board & knew he'd lived in Japan for some time. I just don't get where he gets the right to call the elected leader of the country scum, when he's living OS & in a non financial supporting role. Fair enough if your paying tax & disagree strongly to their policies cause your paying for it, but to get the roller coaster ride through Uni propped up by the public purse, then go OS & give nothing back gives you no right to be throwing around insults in my book
*I could well be wrong on that & Splish is 60 years old & worked here for 30 years beforehand.*

You then go on to complain that you didn't vote for the republic because you didn't like the advertising. I don't know what connection you infer to "Sheik Yerbouti" but I think Frank Zappa would have a good laugh at somebody such as yourself who is so inhibited by what the colourful images on the TV tell him to think, that he does just the opposite to spite them, even if it means going against his own beliefs. Disliking popular culture is one thing, allowing it to become a hatred that dictates your thoughts and actions is going a bit overboard. But you are entitled to your opinion, and as an ex-pat, uni-graduate who is also non-blue collar (as Sploosh says, I don't know why that has anything to do with voting against Howard), I am entitled to mine. No offence intended, and none taken, just amused.

I think Wedginald covered that quite well, rightly or wrongly there was no way I was voting on the same side as those swarmy dicks. Watching them cry into their soy lattes & calling the Australian public fools after the caning was priceless though. Where's that dynamo coming from.


For the record, I want Howard out for refusing to acknowledge the Kyoto treaty, and creating a quasi-51st U.S state out of my homeland. The issue of the environment and Australia's recent complicity in its destruction are things that will far outweigh any economic advantages we may gain in the short term, waiting for scraps to fall from Bush's table.

Good lesson to a few on here how to put forward a valid argument, I don't agree with it but that I will read & take into account.

DB, if you were living in Australia & raising a family though, would these still be your priorities?