The SANFL Metamorphosis, circa 1990

[Grand Central]

So Boulton is one of the gang of seven.

[drebin]

Hit a raw nerve did I magpiespower?

Seriously only a Port supporter wouldn't see the humour in that sarcastic post of mine!

P.S. It is the Port AFL bid that caused the Crows to be formed hastily and before the SANFL planned to enter a team under their terms which has now denied the Crows the chance to get young Gibbs under the father son rule and you lot reakon Webber has nothing to answer for? Ask the bays fans then!

[JamesH]

It is always sad when someone dies.

There is no doubt that webber did what he thought was best for PAFC. Why would such a strong club want to remain in a lop-sided competition.

A lot of the anger stems from the 1990 meeting when Boyd cast a vote to remain loyal with the other 9 SANFL clubs. We all know several SANFL club had considered the VFL since the 1980s.... most were smart enough to know they didnt have the resources .... Even West Torrens were involved in exploring SA clubs in a national league.

Unfortunately 16 years on the SANFL is a minor competition, PAFC are now PAMFC and no one fears or respects them and the new PAFC are just keeping their head above water (i guess they dont have the support they outlined in their 1994 AFL application).

The events of 1990 helped SA footy like the Super League war has helped Rugby League. Webber (more correctly the PAFC) will always be the villain...

[am Bays]

Ask the bays fans then!

No words can adequately decide my contempt and hate for certain club officials in the 1989-1990 era.

First up let state that the current plight of the Glenelg Football club can not be directly attributable to one single event. The miss-management by the board since 1986 when they got rid of Horse and the constant to and froing of coaching positions have all played a role in our current situation.

However most Glenelg people (and anyone with half a brain and an aptitude for how SANFL clubs are run) see the biggest factor of our demise can be attributable to the hastily created Adelaide Football Club in 1990. Take out our coach, fitness director, Board league director, Team manager, a trainer, a proberty steward, and 8 players and that is a gaping big hole. Not to mention sponsors who jumped off us and went to the "exposure of teh crows" e.g. Crystal Springs water who sponsored us for the 1990 GF then sponsored the crows in 1991 in lieu of us, our linen providers etc. Our income in 1990 was $1.1. Million, our income in 1991 $800K. How can any club survive that long term? Especially not with 2 months notice prior to pre-season training for the 1991 season.

The money from the recruitment of Glenelg players to the Crows had to go into debt reduction because our business plan for the next three years developed in January of 1990 at Wirrina was torn up in September 1990 as our forward projection of income a through sponsorship, league dividends (now going into paying off a licence fee) adn gate receipts was thrown out the window.....

Unlike other clubs who thrived and survived in post 1990 they didn't have those problems (losing the players officials and relative amounts of $$$). the Magpies were able to plan for it from 1995 onwards for 1997-99 as they knew what was happening and had shit loads of money from the Smears picking predominantly Magpies players.

So if you wonder why I hold certain individuals in complete and utter contempt and posted my original comments is that in 1990 we had a large proportion of our heart and soul ripped out. As an official of the Glenelg Football club official from 1990 to 1996 I saw it first hand and my words above do not adequately convey my anger and true picture of the effect it had on an instituion I personally regard as the greatest football entity in this country!!!

Yes someone has died and for that I hold a degree of regret as a human being but given that football is a religeon is this country some individuals can be seen in the same vein as Judas and other individuals throughout history that have committed crimes against humanity in the name of religeon

[RM]

Ask the bays fans then!

No words can adequately decide my contempt and hate for certain club officials in the 1989-1990 era.

First up let state that the current plight of the Glenelg Football club can not be directly attributable to one single event. The miss-management by the board since 1986 when they got rid of Horse and the constant to and froing of coaching positions have all played a role in our current situation.

However most Glenelg people (and anyone with half a brain and an aptitude for how SANFL clubs are run) see the biggest factor of our demise can be attributable to the hastily created Adelaide Football Club in 1990. Take out our coach, fitness director, Board league director, Team manager, a trainer, a proberty steward, and 8 players and that is a gaping big hole. Not to mention sponsors who jumped off us and went to the "exposure of teh crows" e.g. Crystal Springs water who sponsored us for the 1990 GF then sponsored the crows in 1991 in lieu of us, our linen providers etc. Our income in 1990 was $1.1. Million, our income in 1991 $800K. How can any club survive that long term? Especially not with 2 months notice prior to pre-season training for the 1991 season.

The money from the recruitment of Glenelg players to the Crows had to go into debt reduction because our business plan for the next three years developed in January of 1990 at Wirrina was torn up in September 1990 as our forward projection of income a through sponsorship, league dividends (now going into paying off a licence fee) adn gate receipts was thrown out the window.....

Unlike other clubs who thrived and survived in post 1990 they didn't have those problems (losing the players officials and relative amounts of $$$). the Magpies were able to plan for it from 1995 onwards for 1997-99 as they knew what was happening and had shit loads of money from the Smears picking predominantly Magpies players.

So if you wonder why I hold certain individuals in complete and utter contempt and posted my original comments is that in 1990 we had a large proportion of our heart and soul ripped out. As an official of the Glenelg Football club official from 1990 to 1996 I saw it first hand and my words above do not adequately convey my anger and true picture of the effect it had on an instituion I personally regard as the greatest football entity in this country!!!

Yes someone has died and for that I hold a degree of regret as a human being but given that football is a religeon is this country some individuals can be seen in the same vein as Judas and other individuals throughout history that have committed crimes against humanity in the name of religeon

Great post.

I have always said to SANFL people that Glenelg died when the Crows were born. Their supporters left in droves and have never really came back. Although when most of the club left to be part of the AFL you couldnt blame them.
I used to call the Crows th eGlenelg Crows at first and bloody hated them and boycoting all games.
We all need a healthy SANFL with all clubs having some success from time to time as the wheel certainly takes a quicker turn these days from the pre AFL days.

[McAlmanac]

Ask the bays fans then!

So if you wonder why I hold certain individuals in complete and utter contempt and posted my original comments is that in 1990 we had a large proportion of our heart and soul ripped out. As an official of the Glenelg Football club official from 1990 to 1996 I saw it first hand and my words above do not adequately convey my anger and true picture of the effect it had on an instituion I personally regard as the greatest football entity in this country!!!

Yes someone has died and for that I hold a degree of regret as a human being but given that football is a religeon is this country some individuals can be seen in the same vein as Judas and other individuals throughout history that have committed crimes against humanity in the name of religeon

"Greatest football entity in the country". Please. I love(d) my club, but you need to know where you stand in the total scheme of things.

And nobody died. In fact, your club is still around - not as successful, in fact as successful as the 50's and early 60's. My club, however, disappeared as an entity in its own right (rightly, in some people's view - which I won't overly dispute) as a result of the Crows' formation. Back to pre-1964, some might say.

We sold our identity to place ourselves for (relative) success. Glenelg still has its identity. I leave it for others to determine who is richer.

[JK]

Not about to say anything bad toward toward Bruce, for three reasons:

1) I'm friends with his daughters, who are lovely girls and have suffered enough with the loss of both of their parents now
2) I never met the bloke
3) Even as a Norwood fan, I never found myself bitter towards Bruce or the actions of Port all of those years ago .. Perhaps I put a business spin on it, but for mine the person in charge of leading his club is reponsible, first and foremostly for the well-being of their club and then, for the environment within which they operate!

I will give a little "Up Yours" to Ferret Rucci for his comments in yesterdays Tiser about the Men of Norwood remaining silent on their meetings with the then-VFL though .. We are still here and never applied for an AFL license without SANFL approval so what could they have to say that would be so bad??

[doggies4eva]

Good posts Grand Central and Tassie. This coincides with my recollection of events at that time. What the SANFL was trying to negotiate was a truely national comp. What the Vics wanted was a way to prop up the ailing Menlbourne clubs by adding a few weak interstate clubs and then selling the comp to the media as a "National Comp". The SANFL was first scuttled by WA who entered the comp on terms less favourable that SA would accept and then by Pt Adelaide doing secret deals. This situation added pressure on the SANFL to quickly form the Crows. No one was disputing that a national comp was the way to go. It was how that comp would be formed that was being negotiated.

The irony is that now some 15 years down the track, it is the interstate clubs that are dominating while many of the Melbourne clubs are propped up financially. I think this shows the failure of the short term thinking of the Victorians. I predict that The AFL will further evolve - by adding more interestate teams and the Melbourne teasm being forced to either move (a la Sydney & Brisbane) or simply fold. Eventually we will have the national comp that the SANFL was arguing for 15 years ago.

[high flying flag]

3) Even as a Norwood fan, I never found myself bitter towards Bruce or the actions of Port all of those years ago ..

As another Norwood fan, I am still bitter. I don't see how a guy who lied and stabbed the SANFL in the back can be seen as a hero by anyone except a Magpie/Power supporter.

I don't know if it was even on the agenda at the time but what was needed was a divisional structure like that in UK soccer. There could have been a playoff for the best SANFL/WAFL/VFL team each year to get promoted to the big league, and the worst team to get relegated. Sydney and Brisbane could be protected from relegation as developing markets. I know its probably never going to happen, but it would have been a way to maintain the integrity and interest in the second tier leagues, and preserving clubs such as Fitzroy. Port (and the WAFL) stopped any chance of something like this happening.

[doggies4eva]

3) Even as a Norwood fan, I never found myself bitter towards Bruce or the actions of Port all of those years ago ..

As another Norwood fan, I am still bitter. I don't see how a guy who lied and stabbed the SANFL in the back can be seen as a hero by anyone except a Magpie/Power supporter.

I don't know if it was even on the agenda at the time but what was needed was a divisional structure like that in UK soccer. There could have been a playoff for the best SANFL/WAFL/VFL team each year to get promoted to the big league, and the worst team to get relegated. Sydney and Brisbane could be protected from relegation as developing markets. I know its probably never going to happen, but it would have been a way to maintain the integrity and interest in the second tier leagues, and preserving clubs such as Fitzroy. Port (and the WAFL) stopped any chance of something like this happening.

Dead right HFF! If they had implemented a plan like that 15 years ago the game would be so much further ahead and Port probably would still have acheived their aim of an AFL club! The current system is a cartel which protects the weak AFL clubs at the expense of all others.

[JK]

3) Even as a Norwood fan, I never found myself bitter towards Bruce or the actions of Port all of those years ago ..

As another Norwood fan, I am still bitter. I don't see how a guy who lied and stabbed the SANFL in the back can be seen as a hero by anyone except a Magpie/Power supporter.

I don't know if it was even on the agenda at the time but what was needed was a divisional structure like that in UK soccer. There could have been a playoff for the best SANFL/WAFL/VFL team each year to get promoted to the big league, and the worst team to get relegated. Sydney and Brisbane could be protected from relegation as developing markets. I know its probably never going to happen, but it would have been a way to maintain the integrity and interest in the second tier leagues, and preserving clubs such as Fitzroy. Port (and the WAFL) stopped any chance of something like this happening.

HFF, there are a couple of points within your post ... In regard to the first one, it does seem as though I view things differently to most non-Port supporters, but ask yourself this, if Nerio Ferraro had acted in the same manner and it was Norwood in the AFL instead of Port, with the remainder of todays footballing landscape remaining the same I'm sure most of our supporters would more than tolerate it .. To my mind, Bruce's OBLIGATION was to Port Adelaide and noone else ...

With regard to the structure you've mentioned, I have always been an advocate for that same system however the days of opportunity for implementing such a structure have sadly, well and truly passed ...

[doggies4eva]

HFF, there are a couple of points within your post ... In regard to the first one, it does seem as though I view things differently to most non-Port supporters, but ask yourself this, if Nerio Ferraro had acted in the same manner and it was Norwood in the AFL instead of Port, with the remainder of todays footballing landscape remaining the same I'm sure most of our supporters would more than tolerate it .. To my mind, Bruce's OBLIGATION was to Port Adelaide and noone else ...

This parocial attitude is what destroys sports. We need administrators who love their club with a passion but can see the bigger picture - that without a healthy comp there is no club.

The irony is I think we will get the sort of structure mentioned by HFF - it will just take about 50 years longer than it needed to.

[high flying flag]

To my mind, Bruce's OBLIGATION was to Port Adelaide and noone else

....and my obligation was to hate his guts. I think he still had an obligation to behave honestly, as I expect any businessman to do. Its called ethics. Port have always had a different idea of acceptable behaviour however.

In reality of course it was Port as a club that was responsible, they just hung Weber out to dry as no-one else was prepared to accept any responsibility.

Regarding structure, the SANFL could lead the way and introduce a system of divisions into South Australian football. To reduce initial objections of current clubs the first action would be to promote an extra team to fill the tenth spot and lose the bye. If it can't be managed on our smaller scale where the difference between Div 1 and SANFL is relatively small (compared to SANFL/AFL) then it will never happen nationally. I think this would be a major boost to grass roots football.

[Magpiespower]

Simple fact is, Norwood had secret meetings with the VFL - as Port did - as early as 1985 about joining an expanded VFL.

Weber even floated the idea of a Port-Norwood merger to join the VFL. Of course, that was never gonna fly.

And Norwood did have talks with the VFL in 1990.

However, Port moved first and Norwood ran for cover.

At least Weber stood by the courage of his convictions and took it all on the chin.

IMO, if Norwood had made a united stand with Port - the SANFL would have been stuffed.

And Norwood wouldn't have had to try and hijack the Crows some years later.

A lot of the anger stems from the 1990 meeting when Boyd cast a vote to remain loyal with the other 9 SANFL clubs.

There is still some conjecture over Boyd's vote.

The story goes that the board told him to abstain from the vote.

But he went ahead and voted with the other nine clubs anyway.

We all know several SANFL club had considered the VFL since the 1980s. Even West Torrens were involved in exploring SA clubs in a national league...

The Torrens proposal (think Tony Farrugia might have been running the show) was laughed at by all and sundry.

They proposed two competitions.

A state based competition of 18 rounds with finals followed by a 16 round national competition with finals.

The VFL derided it as a 'pie in the sky' and rightly so.

This parocial attitude is what destroys sports. We need administrators who love their club with a passion but can see the bigger picture -

But how many of these people actually exist?

Very few I imagine.

[high flying flag]

However, Port moved first and Norwood ran for cover.

Amazing how you can turn loyalty to the SANFL into an insult.

[Magpiespower]

However, Port moved first and Norwood ran for cover.

Amazing how you can turn loyalty to the SANFL into an insult.

Amazing how you can't see that Norwood were complicit in it all.

Amazing how you are looking for someone else to blame for Port Adelaide's disregard for the other SANFL clubs.

[MightyEagles]

When Adelaide did join it was with the same conditions that Port was going to get. So I believe.

[high flying flag]

Amazing how you can't see that Norwood were complicit in it all.

Amazing how you are looking for someone else to blame for Port Adelaide's disregard for the other SANFL clubs.

AFAIK Norwood looked into it, but decided to stay loyal to the SANFL. I can't see how there is anything wrong with that.

The second line I'm afraid I dont understand. The only people I blame are Port. Are you saying that somehow it is the other clubs fault that Port are selfish? Is it you that is trying to shift responsibility? At least you are not quite as bad as Rucci who was claiming that Port did it in the best interests of the SANFL! That really is rewriting history.

[Magpiespower]

Amazing how you can't see that Norwood were complicit in it all.

Amazing how you are looking for someone else to blame for Port Adelaide's disregard for the other SANFL clubs.

AFAIK Norwood looked into it, but decided to stay loyal to the SANFL. I can't see how there is anything wrong with that.

The second line I'm afraid I dont understand. The only people I blame are Port. Are you saying that somehow it is the other clubs fault that Port are selfish? Is it you that is trying to shift responsibility? At least you are not quite as bad as Rucci who was claiming that Port did it in the best interests of the SANFL! That really is rewriting history.

You're not the only one puzzled by that second line.

Because I sure as hell didn't write it!

Something funny going on there...

[JK]

Don't know if anyone is still following this post but FWIW ...

Simple fact is, Norwood had secret meetings with the VFL - as Port did - as early as 1985 about joining an expanded VFL.

Correct, even earlier than that with Ian Collins, here in Adelaide I believe.

And Norwood did have talks with the VFL in 1990.

Believe so aswell ...

However, Port moved first and Norwood ran for cover.

A Bullsh1t, one-eyed comment mate .. Norwood made NO overtures to join the AFL without SANFL sanction, don't try to deflect this from your own mob ..

IMO, if Norwood had made a united stand with Port - the SANFL would have been stuffed.

Agreed.

And Norwood wouldn't have had to try and hijack the Crows some years later.

Haven't heard this, can't argue one way or the other