Annual Leave

Anything!

Re: Annual Leave

Postby devilsadvocate » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:10 pm

Hondo wrote:Sort of off topic but anyone working for a smaller company should be careful about letting too much annual leave accrue in case something goes wrong with the business and then you may not receive all your entitlements when they get cashed out. You also run the risk of the employer trying to dodgy your entitlements down by claiming book-keeping errors etc when it comes time to pay out.

I have seen some huge leave balances in my time. If they are in a big company then generally it's safer but I still wouldn't recommend anyone holding huge balances of leave. Take it (or at least some) while you can.

Just a tip


The employees of Ansett, Onetel, Enron, Bear Sterns, Fanny Mae and Northern Rock beg to differ ;) .

But good advice.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Hondo » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:15 pm

True :lol:

So even in huge companies it's worth considering then

Especially now you can cash out your long service leave if the employer agrees
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby wycbloods » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:12 pm

devilsadvocate wrote:
Rik E Boy wrote:Pretty soon that won't be the only thing you'll be forced into by your employer as we vote away the rights of millions to prevent a thousand from coming to our country. Vote one KKK. They'll stop the boats.

regards,

REB


You clearly have no understanding whatsoever of the Fair Work Act and its complete and utter inflexibility.

I look back to the fear campaign run by the ALP at the last election whereby a mum was on the phone asking her employer if she could start work later (or something to that effect) due to a lack of childcare facilities. The employer (not audible) is obviously saying that if she doesn't come to work, she'll lose her job.

Well, what a load of rot. How is that different to the Fair Work Act? In the case above, Work Choices allowed for the employee to negotiate with her employer from day 1 flexible working hours. The Fair Work Act dictates what hours a worker is allowed to work and be paid award wages - outside these hours, the employer is stung with huge overtime penalty rates. Not only that, an employee is not able to negotiate flexible working hours before reaching 1 year of service.

A part time employee under Work Choices may have had a contract for say 3 days per week. If they got to a holiday period or other time of the year where they wanted/needed additional $, providing the employer had the work available, that employee could opt to do extra hours and be paid their award rate. Fast forward to the Fair Work Act and an employee contracted part time for 22.5 hours per week, cannot work even 1 additional hour for the week without attracting loading. At present it's 50% for the first 2 hours of any additional shift (regardless of the day it is worked) and 100% loading for any hours after those first 2.



What a joke!

My wife will be on average $150 per week worse off, due to her inability (or rather her employers new policy not allowing her) to pick up additional shifts on weekends etc due to the ridiculous loading imposed on the employer. What's just as bad is the employees who hold the regular shifts on the weekends that may give the odd one up to someone like my wife is now not allowed to do so.

So - Fair Work Act flexible? give me a ******* break.The ALP have a red banner for a reason.

Vote 1 Tony Abbott and lobby him to fully implement Work Choices. If you understood Work Choices rather than just believing the smear campaign, you'd realise it's a great step forward in Australian Industrial Relations. Or are you a union boss? :roll:


What a load of total and utter bullshit. Read the act properly if that is a genuine concern of you wifes then all awards and agreements MUST have a flexibility clause and the model clause that applies to all awards and all agreements unless they negotiate a different one allow for individual employees to negotiate with their employer about such things as hours of work, penalty rates and shift loadings amongst other things.
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CoverKing said what?

Agree with AF on this one!
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby wycbloods » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:17 pm

DA

http://www.fwa.gov.au/decisionssigned/h ... irc415.htm


There is one example of a decision handed down by SDP O'Callaghan here in SA.

I will find the reference in the act for you next week. I know i am right.

Also to suggest workchoices was good legislation is laughable and to call the ACTU's campaign a smear campaign is crap. It was simply telling the truth and using real people and real situations to show the public how anti worker that legislation was.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby wycbloods » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:18 pm

Hondo wrote:True :lol:

So even in huge companies it's worth considering then

Especially now you can cash out your long service leave if the employer agrees


Why do you say now Hondo? It has been that way for a while i think. LSL has been able to be cashed out by mutual agreement for a considerable length of time.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby wycbloods » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:24 pm

Psyber wrote:
mighty_tiger_79 wrote:yes vote 1 tony abbott who will roll back workchoices and has said that he will strip away penalty rates across the board including weekend loadings.
I don't think so.
Was I hallucinating when I thought I heard him say he would definitely not bring back Work Choices.
All he failed to exclude was some tinkering around the edges of the present legislation if it wasn't working after it had been given a term of government.
And Julia has not excluded that either, nor even promised not to modify it within her first term.


You believe Abbott on this Psyber, despite his statements about how good the workchoices legislation was and his comments within hours of becoming the opposition leader stating that employers should be able take away. penalty rates and overtime rates.

Believing Abbott on workplace relations is one of the worst mistakes you could make this election. He says he won't touch the FWAct in his first term then announces changes to union election funding that requires the Act to change.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Dr. Rev. Martin Luther King Jnr.

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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Hondo » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:55 pm

wycbloods wrote:
Hondo wrote:True :lol:

So even in huge companies it's worth considering then

Especially now you can cash out your long service leave if the employer agrees


Why do you say now Hondo? It has been that way for a while i think. LSL has been able to be cashed out by mutual agreement for a considerable length of time.


Yeah I know

I meant "now" as in at one time you couldn't cash it out

I reckon it's been around 10 years at least? At work I recall cashing some guys at work out their LSL about that time ago (I was looking after the payroll, not their boss!)
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Psyber » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:18 am

wycbloods wrote: You believe Abbott on this Psyber, despite his statements about how good the workchoices legislation was and his comments within hours of becoming the opposition leader stating that employers should be able take away. penalty rates and overtime rates. Believing Abbott on workplace relations is one of the worst mistakes you could make this election. He says he won't touch the FWAct in his first term then announces changes to union election funding that requires the Act to change.
I believe Abbott as much as I believe Gillard, and I suspect Abbott is more likely to keep his word than Julia.
She hasn't even promised not to change industrial relations policy to suit the unions in her first term.
Both are now making promises about general policy not consistent with their past allegiances.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Dog_ger » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:05 pm

Hondo wrote:True :lol:

So even in huge companies it's worth considering then

Especially now you can cash out your long service leave if the employer agrees


In my situation, it's a pity one cannot cash in their annual leave...?

I have asked twice, and been told "It's not company policy...?

Can someone explain what's the problem here...?
Smile :)

It's only Money $$$ :)

What is happening to our SANFL guys...
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Hondo » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Dog_ger I think wycbloods will know for sure but I think the employer has to agree to cashing out leave so can choose not to.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby wycbloods » Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:51 pm

Hondo wrote:Dog_ger I think wycbloods will know for sure but I think the employer has to agree to cashing out leave so can choose not to.


Correct.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Dr. Rev. Martin Luther King Jnr.

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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Psyber » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:06 pm

wycbloods wrote:You believe Abbott on this Psyber, despite his statements about how good the workchoices legislation was and his comments within hours of becoming the opposition leader stating that employers should be able take away. penalty rates and overtime rates.

Believing Abbott on workplace relations is one of the worst mistakes you could make this election.
He says he won't touch the FWAct in his first term then announces changes to union election funding that requires the Act to change.
You have a point there but many unions seem to be financing the ALP whether members want to or not, and he couldn't wear that.
I think unions should be funded only by their voluntary membership.
When I was that rare thing these days, a non-political Uni student, I objected to having to be a member of the students' union whether I wanted to be or not - even when my Commonwealth Scholarship paid the fees for me.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby devilsadvocate » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:38 pm

wycbloods wrote:
devilsadvocate wrote: Fast forward to the Fair Work Act and an employee contracted part time for 22.5 hours per week, cannot work even 1 additional hour for the week without attracting loading. At present it's 50% for the first 2 hours of any additional shift (regardless of the day it is worked) and 100% loading for any hours after those first 2.



What a load of total and utter bullshit. Read the act properly if that is a genuine concern of you wifes then all awards and agreements MUST have a flexibility clause and the model clause that applies to all awards and all agreements unless they negotiate a different one allow for individual employees to negotiate with their employer about such things as hours of work, penalty rates and shift loadings amongst other things.


:shock: Excuse me?
Which part of that is total and utter bullshit?
Yes, all awards must have a flexibility clause, but this is almost invariable to the detriment of the EMPLOYER. Therefore as a result, the employer will modify their behaviour to minimise the impact of the application of the award - in my wife's case, it means she is not allowed to pick up any shift, which will result in her exceeding her 22.5 hours per week.

My wife is covered by MA000027 - Health Professionals and Support Services Award 2010.

This award, like all others has a flexibility clause, as follows:

7. Award flexibility
7.1 Notwithstanding any other provision of this award, an employer and an individual employee may agree to vary the application of certain terms of this award to meet the genuine individual needs of the employer and the individual employee. The terms the employer and the individual employee may agree to vary the application of are those concerning:

(a) arrangements for when work is performed;

(b) overtime rates;

(c) penalty rates;

(d) allowances; and

(e) leave loading.

7.2 The employer and the individual employee must have genuinely made the agreement without coercion or duress.

7.3 The agreement between the employer and the individual employee must:

(a) be confined to a variation in the application of one or more of the terms listed in clause 7.1; and

(b) result in the employee being better off overall than the employee would have been if no individual flexibility agreement had been agreed to.


7.4 The agreement between the employer and the individual employee must also:

(a) be in writing, name the parties to the agreement and be signed by the employer and the individual employee and, if the employee is under 18 years of age, the employee’s parent or guardian;

(b) state each term of this award that the employer and the individual employee have agreed to vary;

(c) detail how the application of each term has been varied by agreement between the employer and the individual employee;

(d) detail how the agreement results in the individual employee being better off overall in relation to the individual employee’s terms and conditions of employment; and

(e) state the date the agreement commences to operate.

7.5 The employer must give the individual employee a copy of the agreement and keep the agreement as a time and wages record.

7.6 Except as provided in clause 7.4(a) the agreement must not require the approval or consent of a person other than the employer and the individual employee.

7.7 An employer seeking to enter into an agreement must provide a written proposal to the employee. Where the employee’s understanding of written English is limited the employer must take measures, including translation into an appropriate language, to ensure the employee understands the proposal.

7.8 The agreement may be terminated:

(a) by the employer or the individual employee giving four weeks’ notice of termination, in writing, to the other party and the agreement ceasing to operate at the end of the notice period; or

(b) at any time, by written agreement between the employer and the individual employee.

7.9 The right to make an agreement pursuant to this clause is in addition to, and is not intended to otherwise affect, any provision for an agreement between an employer and an individual employee contained in any other term of this award.


The issue with the above flexibility clause is the part I’ve bolded – the employee must always be better off. So why should an employer enter into a flexibility agreement unless they have no other choice?

Clause 10.3 (d) states that a part time employee’s ordinary hours are pro-rated on the basis of a FTE being 38 hours and all terms of the award will apply on that basis.

Therefore, with my wife’s contract being 22.5 hours, those are her ordinary hours.

Clause 28.1 dictates that an employee who works outside their ordinary hours on any day will be paid time and a half for the first two hours; and double time thereafter.

So in response to this change, her employer has said no employees are to swap shifts without written consent. And this makes sense because if my wife was to pick up a 4 hour Saturday morning shift, the employer would have to pay my wife double time for the final 2 hours of the shift, compared to time and a half to the orginal employee, who would have been working ‘ordinary hours’.

I’ve implemented the Fair Work Act in our manufacturing business, covering 100+ employees across 6 different awards. We have this exact issue with 2 staff who are employed to do a specific job. If they are away, we have to wait for them to return before the job gets done. (Which goes against everything I stand for – each position should have cover from another staff member) When one of these employees has carers leave for example, the cannot simply come in the following day and do their job, as the would be required to be paid time and a half for the first 2 hours and double time thereafter, as those hours would be in excess of their ordinary hours.

So before ripping my head off like you’re all high and mighty next time, perhaps take your time to read through the Act yourself.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby wycbloods » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:50 pm

devilsadvocate wrote:
wycbloods wrote:
devilsadvocate wrote: Fast forward to the Fair Work Act and an employee contracted part time for 22.5 hours per week, cannot work even 1 additional hour for the week without attracting loading. At present it's 50% for the first 2 hours of any additional shift (regardless of the day it is worked) and 100% loading for any hours after those first 2.



What a load of total and utter bullshit. Read the act properly if that is a genuine concern of you wifes then all awards and agreements MUST have a flexibility clause and the model clause that applies to all awards and all agreements unless they negotiate a different one allow for individual employees to negotiate with their employer about such things as hours of work, penalty rates and shift loadings amongst other things.



(b) result in the employee being better off overall than the employee would have been if no individual flexibility agreement had been agreed to.




Clause 10.3 (d) states that a part time employee’s ordinary hours are pro-rated on the basis of a FTE being 38 hours and all terms of the award will apply on that basis.

Therefore, with my wife’s contract being 22.5 hours, those are her ordinary hours.

Clause 28.1 dictates that an employee whoworks outside their ordinary hours on any day will be paid time and a half for the first two hours; and double time thereafter.

So in response to this change, her employer has said no employees are to swap shifts without written consent. And this makes sense because if my wife was to pick up a 4 hour Saturday morning shift, the employer would have to pay my wife double time for the final 2 hours of the shift, compared to time and a half to the orginal employee, who would have been working ‘ordinary hours'.


Well firstly I will apologise for my little outburst that wasn’t nice of me.

Secondly in regards to your wife’s situation I agree her award clearly states she must be paid the applicable overtime rates for work performed outside of her agreed ordinary hours 22.5 as you have said. This clause is not common amongst the new awards but it isn’t the only award to have such a clause.

This is a separate issue to the Act stating that PPT employees must be paid the applicable OT rate after completing their agreed hours because the act doesn’t state that. Those specifics are covered by each individual award.

In regards to the flexibility term and what makes an employee “better off” I think you will be very surprised as to what being “better off” actually means. Your wife’s situation is a good example to use, with the IFA I have personally seen(around 20 thus far) your wife would be deemed to be “better off” if she agreed to work hours in excess of 22.5 but less than 38 per week for ordinary hours or time and a half for ordinary hours on a Saturday simply because it has increased her earning capacity above what her current contract states in regards to 22.5 hours per week.

Hell some people have given up OT payments for Pizza and a beer on Fridays under IFA’s and they have passed as having that person better off.

Now I don’t want to be seen to be promoting IFA’s, because I personally don’t like them in the context of Enterprise Agreements but I think in your wife’s case it would have some merit especially if it is coupled with some co-workers doing the same thing and providing their employer with some real flexibility at no extra cost.

Oh and I have negotiated on behalf of over 1500 employees since January this year so I got a fair idea of how the Act works especially with enterprise agreements :).
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby devilsadvocate » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:06 pm

wycbloods wrote:Secondly in regards to your wife’s situation I agree her award clearly states she must be paid the applicable overtime rates for work performed outside of her agreed ordinary hours 22.5 as you have said. This clause is not common amongst the new awards but it isn’t the only award to have such a clause..


Huh? I've checked 10 of the new awards and ALL of them have this clause. The only variation is whether double time kicks in after 2 or 3 hours. It's prety standard part of the new awards, so I'd say double check the ones you are working with. I'd be interested to know which ones don't have this clause.

wycbloods wrote:This is a separate issue to the Act stating that PPT employees must be paid the applicable OT rate after completing their agreed hours because the act doesn’t state that. Those specifics are covered by each individual award.


The Act refers you to the relevant award, so half a dozen of one....

wycbloods wrote:In regards to the flexibility term and what makes an employee “better off” I think you will be very surprised as to what being “better off” actually means. Your wife’s situation is a good example to use, with the IFA I have personally seen(around 20 thus far) your wife would be deemed to be “better off” if she agreed to work hours in excess of 22.5 but less than 38 per week for ordinary hours or time and a half for ordinary hours on a Saturday simply because it has increased her earning capacity above what her current contract states in regards to 22.5 hours per week.

Hell some people have given up OT payments for Pizza and a beer on Fridays under IFA’s and they have passed as having that person better off..

Now I don’t want to be seen to be promoting IFA’s, because I personally don’t like them in the context of Enterprise Agreements but I think in your wife’s case it would have some merit especially if it is coupled with some co-workers doing the same thing and providing their employer with some real flexibility at no extra cost.

This is a good point. But IFA's....aren't we pretty much talking about something that Work Choices was going to deliver to EVERY Australian? The opportunity to negotiate a mutually beneficial agreement with your employer within a set of guidelines?

Yes, renegotiating with a group of peers is a good solution to her issue. But IMO, it highights real weaknesses and inadequacies in the Fair Work Act. IFA's are a poor man's tack on to a poorly developed piece of legislation, which has created an administrative burden for employers and a goldfield for Unions - which is obviously why you're so happy about all of this.

wycbloods wrote:Oh and I have negotiated on behalf of over 1500 employees since January this year so I got a fair idea of how the Act works especially with enterprise agreements :).


Union Rep hey. Hence the overly agressive initial response. I should have guessed.
While I'm sure you have a fair idea of the Act, your initial responses didn't demonstrate that, so I hope in your negotiations you were a little clearer than you have been on here.

Who knows, if some of our employees ever decide to join a union (not 1 out of the 100+ currently hold union membership), we may be arguing these points face to face. But I doubt it, as I've crossed my t's and dotted my i's.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Mickyj » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:27 pm

devilsadvocate wrote:
wycbloods wrote:
Quichey wrote:They do at my place of employment. Put very simply, they allocate X amount of money for annual leave in a yearly budget and when a high number of people don't use it in one year, but decide to use all their accumulated AL in the next year it can blow the yearly budget.


They can't force you to do that though quichey, they are well within their rights to ask their employees to do that but legally they can't force you to do that unless you have at least 8 weeks accrued and then they can only force you to take 25% of that amount above 8 weeks.


Sorry mate, but do you mind posting the source for that legislation? It's certainly not in the Fair Work Act.

The Fair Work Act stipulates the following:

Directing an employee to take annual leave

An award or agreement (including transitional award or agreement based instruments) may allow for an employee to be directed to take annual leave in certain circumstances, for example:

* during a period of shut down (such as between Christmas and New Year)
* if the employee has an excessive accumulated annual leave balance.

However, the employer’s requirement or direction to take leave must be reasonable, taking into account factors such as:

* the needs of the employee and the employer’s business
* any agreed arrangement with the employee
* custom and practice of the business
* timing of the direction or requirement to take leave
* reasonableness of the period of notice given


Therefore, if the employers policy is to force employees to take AL any time they build up 4 weeks for example, you've got no choice.


interesting read Devil.
My work place is going through another EBA .Seems the employers needs are that permanent part workers keep working 10 hour days and over time does not happen until they hit 38 hours.Unlike permanent and casual workers who get over time after 8hours.Of course when they get close to 38 hours (unless we are flat out ) they get sent home and no OT is paid .
Yes it will be changed in the EBA(fair work guy signed off on the last EBA) or at least the PPT's want it changed!!!
No idea about annual leave but I was told a few years back take Long service leave get paid out or lose it!!
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby devilsadvocate » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:22 pm

Mickyj wrote:interesting read Devil.
My work place is going through another EBA .Seems the employers needs are that permanent part workers keep working 10 hour days and over time does not happen until they hit 38 hours.Unlike permanent and casual workers who get over time after 8hours.Of course when they get close to 38 hours (unless we are flat out ) they get sent home and no OT is paid .
Yes it will be changed in the EBA(fair work guy signed off on the last EBA) or at least the PPT's want it changed!!!
No idea about annual leave but I was told a few years back take Long service leave get paid out or lose it!!


WOW, sounds like your workplace is breaking all sorts of rules!

PPT workers will have a contract stipulating their PPT hours. Any hours in excess of this are OT and will attract loading.

On the LSL issue, an employer can't take your entitlements away, but the can force you to either take leave or be paid out.
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Re: Annual Leave

Postby Mickyj » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:54 pm

devilsadvocate wrote:
Mickyj wrote:interesting read Devil.
My work place is going through another EBA .Seems the employers needs are that permanent part workers keep working 10 hour days and over time does not happen until they hit 38 hours.Unlike permanent and casual workers who get over time after 8hours.Of course when they get close to 38 hours (unless we are flat out ) they get sent home and no OT is paid .
Yes it will be changed in the EBA(fair work guy signed off on the last EBA) or at least the PPT's want it changed!!!
No idea about annual leave but I was told a few years back take Long service leave get paid out or lose it!!


WOW, sounds like your workplace is breaking all sorts of rules!

PPT workers will have a contract stipulating their PPT hours. Any hours in excess of this are OT and will attract loading.

On the LSL issue, an employer can't take your entitlements away, but the can force you to either take leave or be paid out.


Yep I got paid for most of it bought a plasma couple years back.love the big screen .Would I get paid out again no I think next time I'd take the time off .if I ever had 12 or 13 weeks again .Taking my 2 weeks LSL off next month.
Now the PPT hours contract yes they do its in the EBA that the fair work ombudsman signed off on .Can work 10 hours no OT until they have worked 38 hours.Its all in black and white they or their predecessors signed the document and didn't read it . Going to get fixed this EBA back when the last one was signed no PPT's were in the union so no action was taken by the union .

Funny thing about annual leave I needed Thursday off an out of the blue specialist appointment has come up.No sick leave left can I take an annual leave day .Oh no its to late in the week RDO well I don't want to lose next weeks RDO .I have 24 RDO hours banked can I have an extra RDO.Took them all of 20 minutes to decide no to a single Annual leave day but yes to an extra RDO.If I'd had any sick days left (all gone from last knee op)I would have just phoned in sick and got a cert.
Oh well I'll be happy Thursday sleep in see a Doc have lunch go home and rest ;)
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