STEVE WAUGH overated ? choker?

[spell_check]

I have used Cricinfos' filter to find his 4th innings totals, then worked out the targets:

Code: Select all

                    Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St
unfiltered           168 10927 200   51.06  32  50  92  5/28   37.44  3 112  0
filtered             116   613  80   25.54   0   2  11  4/34   27.81  0  17  0
 
Runs  W/R   Ct St I *+ Result                        Match                       Target to win
  10   -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v NZ  in Aus 1987/88 at Melbourne [1087]         247 (made 230)
  19   -     -  - 4    D 2nd Test  v Pak in Pak 1988/89 at Faisalabad [1105]        374 (67)
  26   -     -  - 4    L 2nd Test  v WI  in Aus 1988/89 at Perth [1110]             404 (234)
   3   -     -  - 4    L 3rd Test  v WI  in Aus 1988/89 at Melbourne [1112]         400 (114)
  21*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Eng 1989    at Lord's [1122]            118
   4   -     -  - 4    D 2nd Test  v Pak in Aus 1989/90 at Adelaide [1135]          304 (233)       
   4*  -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v WI  in WI  1990/91 at Bridgetown [1169]        552 (208)
   4   -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v WI  in Aus 1992/93 at Adelaide [1210]          186 (184)
  47*  -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v Eng in Eng 1993    at Nottingham [1225]        371 (202)
  26   -     -  - 4    L 6th Test  v Eng in Eng 1993    at The Oval [1231]          391 (229)
   0   -     -  - 4    L 1st Test  v SA  in SA  1993/94 at Johannesburg [1252]      454 (256)
   0   -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v Eng in Aus 1994/95 at Sydney [1281]            449 (344)
   0   -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 1994/95 at Adelaide [1284]          263 (156)
  14   -     -  - 4    L 3rd Test  v Pak in Aus 1995/96 at Sydney [1314]            247 (172)     
  18   -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v SA  in SA  1996/97 at Port Elizabeth [1360]    271
   6   -     -  - 4    L 6th Test  v Eng in Eng 1997    at The Oval [1377]          124 (104)
  34   -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v SA  in Aus 1997/98 at Adelaide [1397]          361 (227)
  27   -     -  - 4    L 1st Test  v Ind in Ind 1997/98 at Chennai [1405]           348 (168)
  15*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Perth [1431]              64
  30*  -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Melbourne [1436]         175 (162)
  28   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v Pak in Aus 1999/00 at Hobart [1469]            369
  15   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v NZ  in NZ  1999/00 at Wellington [1491]        177
  18*  -     -  - 4 *  W 3rd Test  v NZ  in NZ  1999/00 at Hamilton [1493]          212
  38   -     -  - 4 *  W 5th Test  v WI  in Aus 2000/01 at Sydney [1527]            174
  24   -     -  - 4 *  L 2nd Test  v Ind in Ind 2000/01 at Kolkata [1535]           384 (212)
   1*retired hurt 4 *  W 3rd Test  v Eng in Eng 2001    at Nottingham [1554]        158   
  67   -     -  - 4 *  D 3rd Test  v NZ  in Aus 2001/02 at Perth [1573]             439 (381)   
  14   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v SA  in SA  2001/02 at Cape Town [1593]         334
  14   -     -  - 4 *  W 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 2002/03 at Melbourne [1634]         107         
   6   -     -  - 4 *  L 5th Test  v Eng in Aus 2002/03 at Sydney [1636]            452
  80   -     -  - 4 *  D 4th Test  v Ind in Aus 2003/04 at Sydney [1680]            443 (357)

Now just those that the target was less than 200:

Code: Select all

Runs  W/R   Ct St I *+ Result                        Match                       Target to win
  21*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Eng 1989    at Lord's [1122]            118
   4   -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v WI  in Aus 1992/93 at Adelaide [1210]          186 (184)
   6   -     -  - 4    L 6th Test  v Eng in Eng 1997    at The Oval [1377]          124 (104)
  15*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Perth [1431]              64
  30*  -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Melbourne [1436]         175 (162)
  15   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v NZ  in NZ  1999/00 at Wellington [1491]        177
  38   -     -  - 4 *  W 5th Test  v WI  in Aus 2000/01 at Sydney [1527]            174
   1*retired hurt 4 *  W 3rd Test  v Eng in Eng 2001    at Nottingham [1554]        158
  14   -     -  - 4 *  W 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 2002/03 at Melbourne [1634]         107

What no comments
Notice the 3 ducks in a row

Yeah, but you were talking about the small chases - he averages 28.8 in those (I think retired is a not out), which is not too bad considering he spent his career below 4 most of the time. Which makes it more difficult score to anything in a low score.

[smithy]

Stats are like mini skirts.

They are revealing but don't tell the whole story.

[Dogwatcher]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Smithy's ended this discussion with that ripper of a statement!
She's all over.

Stuff the stats - Steve Waugh's not a choker! Us fans can stay happy, and those that dislike him can find another reason to deride him.

[mighty_tiger_79]

I BELIeve looking into the STATS that STEVE WAUGH was in fact not a CHAMP but in fact a CHOKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hondo]

You can't draw any conclusions on those stats alone - you have to rank him against other players' scores in the 4th innings. Not that I am suggesting we start down that path .....

[bulldogs]

get a grip. steve waugh is one of australias finest batsman. another sign of the good old tall poppy syndrome anyone out there scored over 10,000 test runs

[mighty_tiger_79]

get a grip. steve waugh is one of australias finest batsman. another sign of the good old tall poppy syndrome anyone out there scored over 10,000 test runs

not many of those runs were scored when it really mattered!

[am Bays]

get a grip. steve waugh is one of australias finest batsman. another sign of the good old tall poppy syndrome anyone out there scored over 10,000 test runs

not many of those runs were scored when it really mattered!

F*ck me if that is not one of the worst posts on this site in 18 months

200 @ JAmica to set up the win that won the Frank Worrel trophy
199* at Jamaica in 1999 (only lost the test thanks to the brilliance of Lara a win would have secure Frank again)
177 and 152* v the POMS in 89 to help give us 2 nil lead and win back the ASHES
he also scored 92 in the ASHES winning 4th test
108 and 116 at Old trafford in 97 to set up the eins to let us level the series and then go on and win
80 and wickets in the series leveling 2nd test in Cape town in 93
164 and wickets the series winning test against SL in Adel in 95-96
150 + batting all day with Blewett in the 1st test at Joburg in 97 to set up the win
150 + v england at the Gabba in 98-99 1st test iof the series
100 + v Windies at gabba in 96-97 to win the test
not to forget his best inning 63* on a green top at Trinidad in 95 when he told Ambrose to F*ck off

read those innings with thought that the Australians always regarded the 1st test as the most important in the series as that is when you set up the series wins, 1st session, 1st day 1st test winning those were always important to the Australains

Thats off the top of my head, FWIW, the South Africans used to call Steve Waugh the Ice Man as he always delivered.

Christ steve Waugh more often than not scored runs when they were needed....

[Rik E Boy]

get a grip. steve waugh is one of australias finest batsman. another sign of the good old tall poppy syndrome anyone out there scored over 10,000 test runs

not many of those runs were scored when it really mattered!

LMAO.



regards,

REB

[bulldogs]

get a grip. steve waugh is one of australias finest batsman. another sign of the good old tall poppy syndrome anyone out there scored over 10,000 test runs

not many of those runs were scored when it really mattered!

F*ck me if that is not one of the worst posts on this site in 18 months

200 @ JAmica to set up the win that won the Frank Worrel trophy
199* at Jamaica in 1999 (only lost the test thanks to the brilliance of Lara a win would have secure Frank again)
177 and 152* v the POMS in 89 to help give us 2 nil lead and win back the ASHES
he also scored 92 in the ASHES winning 4th test
108 and 116 at Old trafford in 97 to set up the eins to let us level the series and then go on and win
80 and wickets in the series leveling 2nd test in Cape town in 93
164 and wickets the series winning test against SL in Adel in 95-96
150 + batting all day with Blewett in the 1st test at Joburg in 97 to set up the win
150 + v england at the Gabba in 98-99 1st test iof the series
100 + v Windies at gabba in 96-97 to win the test
not to forget his best inning 63* on a green top at Trinidad in 95 when he told Ambrose to F*ck off

read those innings with thought that the Australians always regarded the 1st test as the most important in the series as that is when you set up the series wins, 1st session, 1st day 1st test winning those were always important to the Australains

Thats off the top of my head, FWIW, the South Africans used to call Steve Waugh the Ice Man as he always delivered.

Christ steve Waugh more often than not scored runs when they were needed....

here here tassie. how could anyone have a go at steve waugh

[mal]

If I could pick 3 Australian batsman batting in a 1st innings of a test
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN
2 Steve WAUGH
3 ??????????????

If I could pick 3 Australian batsman batting in a 2nd innings of a test
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN
2 Steve WAUGH
3 ???????????????

If I could pick 1 Australian batsman in the 3rd innings of a test match
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN

If I could pick 1 Australian batsman in the LAST innings of a test match
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN

_____________________________________________________________

IN THE FIRST 2 INNINGS OF ALL TEST MATCHES PLAYED IN AUSTRALIAS
TEST MATCH HISTORY I CONSIDER STEVE WAUGH THE 2ND BEST BATSMAN
______________________________________________________________

As for chasing in the LAST innings of test matches I would rate Steve WAUGH
as an ordinary batsman.
He goes from 61 average 1st innings to 25 LAST innings in test matches
Thats a differential of 36
Has there been a higher differential of all Australian batsmen ?????????????????

Quite simply its a matter of partially choking ? [USING THAT C WORD IN CONTEXT]
Or simply the guy had a technique problem being a back foot player on wearing pitches.

__________________________________________________________________

IN THE 4TH INNINGS OF ALL TEST MATCHES PLAYED IN AUSTRALIAS TEST HISTORY
I CONSIDER STEVE WAUGH TO BE AN ORDINARY CRICKETER
____________________________________________________________________

I have reached this conclusion after
looking at the data provided by Spell Check

[mighty_tiger_79]

If I could pick 3 Australian batsman batting in a 1st innings of a test
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN
2 Steve WAUGH
3 ??????????????

If I could pick 3 Australian batsman batting in a 2nd innings of a test
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN
2 Steve WAUGH
3 ???????????????

If I could pick 1 Australian batsman in the 3rd innings of a test match
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN

If I could pick 1 Australian batsman in the LAST innings of a test match
and win matches i would pick
1 Don BRADMAN

_____________________________________________________________

IN THE FIRST 2 INNINGS OF ALL TEST MATCHES PLAYED IN AUSTRALIAS
TEST MATCH HISTORY I CONSIDER STEVE WAUGH THE 2ND BEST BATSMAN
______________________________________________________________

As for chasing in the LAST innings of test matches I would rate Steve WAUGH
as an ordinary batsman.
He goes from 61 average 1st innings to 25 LAST innings in test matches
Thats a differential of 36
Has there been a higher differential of all Australian batsmen ?????????????????

Quite simply its a matter of partially choking ? [USING THAT C WORD IN CONTEXT]
Or simply the guy had a technique problem being a back foot player on wearing pitches.

__________________________________________________________________

IN THE 4TH INNINGS OF ALL TEST MATCHES PLAYED IN AUSTRALIAS TEST HISTORY
I CONSIDER STEVE WAUGH TO BE AN ORDINARY CRICKETER
____________________________________________________________________

I have reached this conclusion after
looking at the data provided by Spell Check

MAL how could you possibly say that, i mean didnt you read tassies post???

steve waugh a choker...........................absolutely

[Maddogmike]

No Chance - Steve Waugh an ABSOLUTE champion!!!

[mighty_tiger_79]

Steve Waugh when there isnt a lot of pressure on in the 1st and 2nd innings of matches generally scores well, but when the pressure is on, he does drop away a fair bit, especially with his average.

[am Bays]

Bit hard to make 2nd innings runs when you make so many in the 1st theres bugger all to make in the 2nd.....

Of course there is going to be such a big difference between 1st and 2nd innings when you one of the best 1st innings averages going around....

The bloke like Border is a legend of the baggy green

[Hondo]

He goes from 61 average 1st innings to 25 LAST innings in test matches
Thats a differential of 36
Has there been a higher differential of all Australian batsmen ?????????????????

Quite simply its a matter of partially choking ? [USING THAT C WORD IN CONTEXT]
Or simply the guy had a technique problem being a back foot player on wearing pitches.

I have reached this conclusion after
looking at the data provided by Spell Check

You can't make any conclusions on Spelly's stats because he hasn't done the analysis on any other player (ie, 1st innings v 2nd) ...... check that out and then come back to us. While you are doing that, re-read Tassie's post and then get yourself a copy of any cricket book written in the last 15 years and look for comments made about Steve Waugh by his team-mates and opponents.

[rod_rooster]

He goes from 61 average 1st innings to 25 LAST innings in test matches
Thats a differential of 36
Has there been a higher differential of all Australian batsmen ?????????????????

Quite simply its a matter of partially choking ? [USING THAT C WORD IN CONTEXT]
Or simply the guy had a technique problem being a back foot player on wearing pitches.

I have reached this conclusion after
looking at the data provided by Spell Check

You can't make any conclusions on Spelly's stats because he hasn't done the analysis on any other player (ie, 1st innings v 2nd) ...... check that out and then come back to us. While you are doing that, re-read Tassie's post and then get yourself a copy of any cricket book written in the last 15 years and look for comments made about Steve Waugh by his team-mates and opponents.

Seriously there is no need to continue this. There are a couple of people that think Steve Waugh is a "choker" (the most overused and ill informed term in modern sport). mal has made up his mind again based on stats and mt79 has done so as well apparently. Let these people continue to live their lives based on stats and the rest of us can live in the real world. A perfect example was brought up earlier in this thread. Steve Waugh's best innings in Test cricket was quite possibly a 63*. Look purely at stats and that is just a half century and nothing overly special. Look at the reality of that dig and you appreciate how special it was.

To further kill this debate mal thinks very very highly of Shane Watson yet thinks Steve Waugh was a choker Draw your own conclusions but based on that mal could most likely get off any criminal charge with an insanity plea.

[spell_check]

He goes from 61 average 1st innings to 25 LAST innings in test matches
Thats a differential of 36
Has there been a higher differential of all Australian batsmen ?????????????????

Quite simply its a matter of partially choking ? [USING THAT C WORD IN CONTEXT]
Or simply the guy had a technique problem being a back foot player on wearing pitches.

I have reached this conclusion after
looking at the data provided by Spell Check

You can't make any conclusions on Spelly's stats because he hasn't done the analysis on any other player (ie, 1st innings v 2nd) ...... check that out and then come back to us. While you are doing that, re-read Tassie's post and then get yourself a copy of any cricket book written in the last 15 years and look for comments made about Steve Waugh by his team-mates and opponents.

Looking at those stats myself - as I have said, you don't get a lot of opportunity to score much in low totals, and the 5th day pitches are usually the worst. Mal or MT79, I don't really know how you could say anything like that to Steve Waugh, when that and comparing him to other players in the 4th innings hasn't been done?

[rod_rooster]

He goes from 61 average 1st innings to 25 LAST innings in test matches
Thats a differential of 36
Has there been a higher differential of all Australian batsmen ?????????????????

Quite simply its a matter of partially choking ? [USING THAT C WORD IN CONTEXT]
Or simply the guy had a technique problem being a back foot player on wearing pitches.

I have reached this conclusion after
looking at the data provided by Spell Check

You can't make any conclusions on Spelly's stats because he hasn't done the analysis on any other player (ie, 1st innings v 2nd) ...... check that out and then come back to us. While you are doing that, re-read Tassie's post and then get yourself a copy of any cricket book written in the last 15 years and look for comments made about Steve Waugh by his team-mates and opponents.

Looking at those stats myself - as I have said, you don't get a lot of opportunity to score much in low totals, and the 5th day pitches are usually the worst. Mal or MT79, I don't really know how you could say anything like that to Steve Waugh, when that and comparing him to other players in the 4th innings hasn't been done?

mal loves his stats when they compliment to his argument spelly. He still hasn't responded to my point that looking at the stats Murali is a better bowler than Warne.

[Maddogmike]

easily a gun!