AFL Reserves Discussion...

[UK Fan]

We wouldn't put it past the PAFC to do anything!

Beenreal, you must know by now the majority on us here can only see selfish motives for all the PAFC does! What has the PAFC actually done in all good faith for the betterment of the SANFL since they launched their failed bid in 1990?

Gave us all a good laugh in 2007 only thing that I can think of.

[Macca19]

Im not sure thats what he meant, but oh well.

That was my understanding of it.
Most years several AFL listed players get withdrawn from SANFL finals, IF Port reserves made finals it would be interesting to see if the same rule applied.
Would Port rest them all or would they have a change of heart?

I took it to mean would the players become ineligible to play finals due to the AFL team not playing anymore...not being pulled from injury.

In any case, under his question, why would they only miss the grand final? They'd either miss the entire finals series, or would play the entire finals series. Why would Port pull players for the grand final after playing the rest of the finals?

[Jim05]

Im not sure thats what he meant, but oh well.

That was my understanding of it.
Most years several AFL listed players get withdrawn from SANFL finals, IF Port reserves made finals it would be interesting to see if the same rule applied.
Would Port rest them all or would they have a change of heart?

I took it to mean would the players become ineligible to play finals due to the AFL team not playing anymore...not being pulled from injury.

In any case, under his question, why would they only miss the grand final? They'd either miss the entire finals series, or would play the entire finals series. Why would Port pull players for the grand final after playing the rest of the finals?

I think because once the Powers season is over they usually start pulling their players from the SANFL.
With the SANFL season being longer if both Port sides made finals and the AFL side is knocked out earlier would they withdraw their players from the SANFL as they do now

[saintal]

Probably. Surgery/rest for the AFL isted players would be a higher priority, while some players who might be used as trade-bait (or free agents) might be wrapped up in cotton wool (Rodan last year)

[LPH]

From the CEO via email...

Dear members, partners and affiliates of the Woodville West Torrens Football Club, this is to update you in relation to the AFL Reserves issue within the SANFL.

Last week we met with both the Adelaide and Port Adelaide Football Clubs and they presented their vision to us. It would be fair to say that we have only just started to gain and gather information which, down the track, will assist us in making an informed decision for both the SANFL competition and more importantly what’s best and sustainable for our Football Club. Although we understand that our members trust the club with this decision, we are taking another collaborative step in engaging you by way of a poll. We have heard from dozens of our members in writing and we thank you for your passion and commitment to the Woodville West Torrens Football Club.

The aim of this poll will be to quickly and effectively gather a “for”, “against”, or “more information required before I decide” vote on this topic. We want you however to do this not purely based on emotion, but also taking into consideration some of the below potential pros and cons. Please note that all these are merely speculative and forecasted as opposed to official.

As I have previously communicated with you, the guiding principles that have been agreed to by all clubs and the SANFL as non-negotiable elements are:

1. Integrity: Any change in competition structure must maintain or enhance the integrity of the SANFL competition;
2. Relevance: Any change in competition structure must maintain or enhance the relevance of the SANFL competition as the best State League in Australia;
3. SANFL & SANFL Club Viability: Any change to the competition structure must improve the long term strength and sustainability of the SANFL and SANFL Clubs; and
4. Game Development: Any change to the competition structure must enhance the development of the game at all levels across South Australia.

Potential Pros (opportunities) of having AFL teams in the SANFL competition could include but not be limited to; a lift in sponsorship – media – branding, extra home game revenue, game development and community engagement, uplift in finances, maintaining relevance, club structure and providing a future for the SANFL competition.

Potential Cons (threats) of having AFL teams in the SANFL competition could include but not be limited to; membership cannibalization (divide of loyalty), exposure of our competition to “development style teams”, AFL teams not playing to win, or AFL teams too strong for the SANFL competition.

Finally a reversed view in the case that the AFL clubs were to choose a different league to play in other than the SANFL; Cons may include but not be limited to; losing the appeal of AFL players within our league regardless, not having control or influence over the process or outcomes/scheduling, loss of media exposure/interest in the SANFL, membership cannibalization (divide of loyalty), match day and revenue streams may also suffer as a result.

As previously mentioned, this is merely a document to consider scenarios which may become relevant as the time draws near to making a decision (post receiving more information and greater detail).

If you would like to contribute to this simple poll, click here. If you wish to make further commentary, people are welcome to continue sending letters to myself or the chairman as has been the case to date.
The poll will close on Tuesday 16th July @ 5pm. Please ensure you answer all the questions in the poll so that we are able to collect the factual data from our financial members.

At least they appear to be listening...

[once_were_warriors]

Pretty easy , the yes proposition fails automatically on point 1.

[areaman]

I wrote to the Eagles President this week expressing my views and requesting that they consult with the members before making any decision.

Haven't heard back personally but at least enough of us have done it to prompt this response.

What will they have to do if/when it's an overwhelming response rejecting the AFL proposals?

Hope we get to find out the result of the survey.

[Aerie]

Pretty easy , the yes proposition fails automatically on point 1.

Exactly. Without point 1, I think the others are doomed to fail also.

From that email, it looks like Eagles are For point 2,3,4 and Against point 1. Of course, you can twist any of those points around to suit any argument.

[Ecky]

Some other important pros and cons they perhaps conveniently fail to mention are

- Potential Cons (threats) of having AFL teams in the SANFL competition: Large reduction of membership and interest in the SANFL due to people not caring about a compromised competition (as has happened in the VFL)

- Potential Pros if the AFL clubs were to choose a different league to play in other than the SANFL - increase in integrity of the SANFL due to no AFL players coming and going and less pressure from the AFL to toe the line and conform to AFL rule changes and the ability to schedule games at times to maximise attendances, not at times when AFL players would like to play.

[Barto]

We wouldn't put it past the PAFC to do anything!

Beenreal, you must know by now the majority on us here can only see selfish motives for all the PAFC does! What has the PAFC actually done in all good faith for the betterment of the SANFL since they launched their failed bid in 1990?

As I said on db.org: Port not only want their cake, they want everyone elses cake, then they'll take a dump where our cakes were and expect us to thank them for it.

[Apachebulldog]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl ... 6676672496

He compares crowd numbers to 1993 and hence to now 2013 he is trying to push and justify the AFL RESERVES agenda he conveniently outlines crowd attendances for round 15 the coldest wettest and the most dismal weekend for footyin a long time.

Why did he not highlight the attendances for round 1.

Port v Norwood 7,560
West v Central 2,971
South v Glenelg 4,530
Sturt v Eagles 3,156

Then he states " It is on its knees with dwindling crowds finances in a poor state etc etc "

I suggest he does a bit more research by comparing numbers in the VFA the pseudo AFL RESERVES COMP in a city with FOUR times the population of Adelaide and only draws an average of 2,000 people per game and then not to mention their Grand Final attendances which are less than half of the SANFL.

This guy is trying to get the SA football public on side with this agenda by painting a picture that the SANFL is stuffed what chance have we all got with all this of this mis information.

[LPH]

Not to mention that PAFC were still in the SANFL as the PAFC & not remotely near AFL entry.

Comparing Apples with Oranges I think

[beenreal]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/theres-room-for-port-adelaide-power-reserves-in-sanfl-without-compromising-magpies/story-fnia3m0h-1226676672496

He compares crowd numbers to 1993 and hence to now 2013 he is trying to push and justify the AFL RESERVES agenda he conveniently outlines crowd attendances for round 15 the coldest wettest and the most dismal weekend for footyin a long time.

Why did he not highlight the attendances for round 1.

Port v Norwood 7,560
West v Central 2,971
South v Glenelg 4,530
Sturt v Eagles 3,156

Then he states " It is on its knees with dwindling crowds finances in a poor state etc etc "

I suggest he does a bit more research by comparing numbers in the VFA the pseudo AFL RESERVES COMP in a city with FOUR times the population of Adelaide and only draws an average of 2,000 people per game and then not to mention their Grand Final attendances which are less than half of the SANFL.

This guy is trying to get the SA football public on side with this agenda by painting a picture that the SANFL is stuffed what chance have we all got with all this of this mis information.

You obviously mean the current VFL, which was formerly the VFA and never the premier competition in the state. Regardless of whether it is a pseudo Reserves competition, crowd numbers have been pretty average for the past 10-15 years.

[Apachebulldog]

I wonder why maybe because a lot of fans are NOT INTERESTED IN WATCHING AFL RESERVES quite simple.

[Pseudo]

Very proud of Kochy's performance and the social-minded ethics of my club. As he said, (among many other great points for anyone who cared to listen objectively) so often AFL clubs get criticised for not giving back to their local community, so if the PAFC is going to be crucified for putting a focus on the development of junior footballers, happy to do so.

The fact so many are up in arms over this commitment says more about them than us

The whole "junior development" argument behind the Port Model (tm) is a gigantic furphy and you know it. Most juniors developed by Port will not play for the Power, being subject to the whims of the AFL draft. Most of them won't end up in the Magpies league team either, if there are a dozen AFL-listed blokes already filling the slots. Port is not proposing this out of simple altruism.

If you and yours were dinkum about development of juniors into league footballers, you'd demand the resurrection of the Magpies as a stand-alone club whose league team was the pinnacle of the development chain.

[saintal]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/theres-room-for-port-adelaide-power-reserves-in-sanfl-without-compromising-magpies/story-fnia3m0h-1226676672496

He compares crowd numbers to 1993 and hence to now 2013 he is trying to push and justify the AFL RESERVES agenda he conveniently outlines crowd attendances for round 15 the coldest wettest and the most dismal weekend for footyin a long time.

Why did he not highlight the attendances for round 1.

Port v Norwood 7,560
West v Central 2,971
South v Glenelg 4,530
Sturt v Eagles 3,156

Then he states " It is on its knees with dwindling crowds finances in a poor state etc etc "

I suggest he does a bit more research by comparing numbers in the VFA the pseudo AFL RESERVES COMP in a city with FOUR times the population of Adelaide and only draws an average of 2,000 people per game and then not to mention their Grand Final attendances which are less than half of the SANFL.

This guy is trying to get the SA football public on side with this agenda by painting a picture that the SANFL is stuffed what chance have we all got with all this of this mis information.

Was also going to post about this article and the manipulation of stats. Yep it was a poor round attendance wise in the SANFL, but didn't the beloved "Team for all South Australians" attract their 4th lowest ever home crowd on Saturday night, or did I hear wrong? No doubt weather was the contributing factor the media masses would tell us, even if it was another "must win" clash against a fellow finals aspirant. It begs the question, how many casual, theatre going Crows supporters are going to head to a cold and wet Richmond or Elizabeth in the middle of winter to watch a ressies game on a Saturday afternoon. I'm sure it wont be 4000. 500 perhaps..?

Rucci is constantly changing his tune through this saga.

[The Sleeping Giant]

The whole "junior development" argument behind the Port Model (tm) is a gigantic furphy and you know it. Most juniors developed by Port will not play for the Power, being subject to the whims of the AFL draft. Most of them won't end up in the Magpies league team either, if there are a dozen AFL-listed blokes already filling the slots. Port is not proposing this out of simple altruism.

If you and yours were dinkum about development of juniors into league footballers, you'd demand the resurrection of the Magpies as a stand-alone club whose league team was the pinnacle of the development chain.

If Port were so concerned about junior development, they would give up their zone to the 8 other clubs.

[Dogwatcher]

Here's a question...in 1991 Woodville and West Torrens football clubs merged to become one club.
At the time, a 10 club competition in this state was not seen as sustainable.
Since that time, there has even been talk that, on a population basis, an eight-team competition might be more appropriate.
What would make a 10 team competition in SA feasible in 2014 and into the future when it hasn't been considered sustainable for over two decades?

Just thought I'd bring this question back so the pro-AFL reserves forces can have a chance at responding.

[Dogmatic]

Expect something like this to come out soon;
http://mm.afl.com.au/Portals/0/club%20images/attachments/Evolution.pdf

[therisingblues]

I had an idea of a compromise.
If the two sides played in the SANFL it shouldn't be for premiership points.

But then the other sides would just field experimental sides and it'd be a joke. The two AFL sides would also be excluded from the premiership ladder, which would just show the surviving 8 SANFL sides and the culmination of their efforts against the other SANFL sides with regards wins/losses/percentage.

What the 2 AFL sides would need to do is provide an incentive for the SANFL sides to field more serious opposition.

If we created a second premiership ladder, one which included the results of all SANFL matches including those involving AFL reserves sides, we could create an AFL funded separate pool of prizemoney for how teams finish on that ladder. Eg:

Uncompromised SANFL ladder after round 12

Norwood 9 wins 1 loss
North 8-2
West 7-3
Eagles 5-5
Central 5-5
South 3-7
Sturt 2-8
Glenelg 1-9

All teams would have had 2 byes ( not sure if that's mathematically correct but that's not the point.) during that bye they played either Port or Adelaide reserves.
If we actually counted those results in an AFL funded AFL/SANFL reserves premiership ladder may look like this:

Norwood 10-2
Port 9-3
North 9-3
West 8-4
Adelaide 8-4
Eagles 6-6
Central 6-6
Sturt 3-9
South 3-9
Glenelg 1-11

A nominal amount of cash could be up for grabs for the winner of each game involving an AFL reserves side. There vod also be end of year bonuses for sides finishing in the top two positions of the AFL/RES ladder.

I have an idea about how finals could be structured but I want to see if this idea doesn't get the shit canned out of it too badly before I offer anything else.

On the face of it, it protects the SANFL's integrity and offers stiff competition for the AFL ressies. I'm sure there's a downside.
What do people think?