Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

First Class Cricket Talk (International and State)

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:27 am

heater31 wrote:
Lightning McQueen wrote:We will always have to accept mediocrity, cricket in SA has declined dramatically at all levels, the chance to make a decent crust out of it is minimal whereas the chance to make a decent crust in other sports is higher and less time consuming.


This is probably the biggest issue First Class Cricket has faced in the professional era.

6 teams with probably 20 spots available can play until 35 years old. Most likely forced to go semi professional from 18 to 22 years old to try to make it


Football.....18 teams that are forced to make a minimum number of changes per off season. 100 places up for grabs each season with a chance to be paid decent money straight away.

Bingo.
HOGG SHIELD DIVISION V WINNER 2018.
User avatar
Lightning McQueen
Coach
 
Posts: 39137
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:43 am
Location: Radiator Springs
Has liked: 2735 times
Been liked: 4906 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Jim05 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
Booney wrote:Merge.

West Torrens, Woodville and Port Adelaide become 1 club.

Glenelg and Adelaide.

Prospect and East Torrens.

It would be so easy to get rid of 4 or 5 clubs without them having to die and lose all their identity.


Blame the players, the coaches, whoever you want, but the root cause is the poor grade competition.

No clubs will merge so the SACA need to think differently, establish a Elite Grade, over and above what is there now, with only 6 spots available and make the clubs bid for the right to participate, meeting tight criteria or they are not considered. They need to make the clubs think differently and challenge themselves to be better.

Then you can still have the A grade comp underneath so no need to merge, could even have a possible promotion/relegation situation.
I’ve said this all along.
Jim05
Coach
 
 
Posts: 41032
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:03 pm
Has liked: 1085 times
Been liked: 2572 times
Grassroots Team: South Gawler

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:33 am

Booney wrote:
Then more fool them. They're sacrificing the good of the game for selfish interests, the game will look upon them poorly not only now but in the future.

You're talking over 100 years of history there mate, of course the old stalwarts will not go down that path, we've won Shields with the same set up as we currently have, that's what the counter argument would be.

These clubs have pride, the blokes around the place bleed for their club's history and survival, they don't see themselves as feeder clubs for the SACA, they wanna win flags.

It could've been a lot worse, back in the early 90's the Elizabeth District Cricket Club entered the A Grade comp (same year as Southern Districts), there was talk of a Gawler team entering too, luckily for the SACA that Elizabeth merged with Salisbury after a couple of seasons at the top grade, it did create the odd number of teams though.
HOGG SHIELD DIVISION V WINNER 2018.
User avatar
Lightning McQueen
Coach
 
Posts: 39137
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:43 am
Location: Radiator Springs
Has liked: 2735 times
Been liked: 4906 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
Booney wrote:Merge.

West Torrens, Woodville and Port Adelaide become 1 club.

Glenelg and Adelaide.

Prospect and East Torrens.

It would be so easy to get rid of 4 or 5 clubs without them having to die and lose all their identity.


Blame the players, the coaches, whoever you want, but the root cause is the poor grade competition.

No clubs will merge so the SACA need to think differently, establish a Elite Grade, over and above what is there now, with only 6 spots available and make the clubs bid for the right to participate, meeting tight criteria or they are not considered. They need to make the clubs think differently and challenge themselves to be better.

Then you can still have the A grade comp underneath so no need to merge, could even have a possible promotion/relegation situation.


Have a top 8 play in Div 1, make it like the AdFL or the soccer federation and open the floodgates to ATCA clubs.

You'll have the better players transferring to the Div 1 clubs and strengthening that comp, the Div 2 clubs will look to better themselves to get back up, now they can just plod along and make sure they're financial.
HOGG SHIELD DIVISION V WINNER 2018.
User avatar
Lightning McQueen
Coach
 
Posts: 39137
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:43 am
Location: Radiator Springs
Has liked: 2735 times
Been liked: 4906 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Minimum Chips » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:50 am

Dutchy wrote:
No clubs will merge so the SACA need to think differently, establish a Elite Grade, over and above what is there now, with only 6 spots available and make the clubs bid for the right to participate, meeting tight criteria or they are not considered. They need to make the clubs think differently and challenge themselves to be better.

Then you can still have the A grade comp underneath so no need to merge, could even have a possible promotion/relegation situation.

Perhaps with this Elite Grade the criteria could be along the lines of?:
strong senior program (i.e. must fill all 4 teams each weekend - or whatever amount of teams is decided)
strong junior program
strong women's program
Minimum Chips
Rookie
 
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:04 pm
Has liked: 7 times
Been liked: 8 times
Grassroots Team: Bute

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Trader » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:06 am

Mergers wont be agreed to by the clubs.

The elite comp is the only way to do it.
Invite 8 clubs, the other 5 still exist but no longer have a comp to play in, so approach the ATCA to join their ranks.

Promotion and relegation between elite and ATCA would be ideal, however you'll find the clubs winning ATCA (ie: PAOC as reigning premiers) don't meet the criteria to go to elite (no juniors).

There are problems with any solution, so naturally, we continue to sink.
Danny Southern telling Plugga he's fat, I'd like to see that!
User avatar
Trader
League - Top 5
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 1:19 pm
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 391 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Dutchy » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:11 am

Id argue 8 is still too many, esp when you take away the top 12 to play shield and then 2nd XI games.

8 means the majority of the existing clubs roll into the Elite League, needs a complete shake up to bring change.

Start with 6 and maybe expand up to 8 in the future.
FLAGstaff Hill FC 2016, 2017, 2018 & 2019 Premiers
User avatar
Dutchy
Site Admin
 
 
Posts: 39087
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:24 am
Location: Location, Location
Has liked: 1208 times
Been liked: 1986 times
Grassroots Team: Flagstaff Hill

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Booney » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:11 am

Lightning McQueen wrote:
Booney wrote:
Then more fool them. They're sacrificing the good of the game for selfish interests, the game will look upon them poorly not only now but in the future.

You're talking over 100 years of history there mate, of course the old stalwarts will not go down that path, we've won Shields with the same set up as we currently have, that's what the counter argument would be.

These clubs have pride, the blokes around the place bleed for their club's history and survival, they don't see themselves as feeder clubs for the SACA, they wanna win flags.

It could've been a lot worse, back in the early 90's the Elizabeth District Cricket Club entered the A Grade comp (same year as Southern Districts), there was talk of a Gawler team entering too, luckily for the SACA that Elizabeth merged with Salisbury after a couple of seasons at the top grade, it did create the odd number of teams though.


Won it twice '81/82 and '95/96 since 1977.

In 43 years we've won it twice, in the same time we've come 6th 14 times, 5th 8 times, 4th 7 times.

So in the last 43 years we've finished in the bottom half 29 times.

The system isn't working.
PAFC. Forever.

LOOK OUT, WE'RE COMING!
User avatar
Booney
Coach
 
 
Posts: 46471
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:47 pm
Location: Alberton proud
Has liked: 4596 times
Been liked: 7632 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:21 am

Booney wrote:
Lightning McQueen wrote:
Booney wrote:
Then more fool them. They're sacrificing the good of the game for selfish interests, the game will look upon them poorly not only now but in the future.

You're talking over 100 years of history there mate, of course the old stalwarts will not go down that path, we've won Shields with the same set up as we currently have, that's what the counter argument would be.

These clubs have pride, the blokes around the place bleed for their club's history and survival, they don't see themselves as feeder clubs for the SACA, they wanna win flags.

It could've been a lot worse, back in the early 90's the Elizabeth District Cricket Club entered the A Grade comp (same year as Southern Districts), there was talk of a Gawler team entering too, luckily for the SACA that Elizabeth merged with Salisbury after a couple of seasons at the top grade, it did create the odd number of teams though.


Won it twice '81/82 and '95/96 since 1977.

In 43 years we've won it twice, in the same time we've come 6th 14 times, 5th 8 times, 4th 7 times.

So in the last 43 years we've finished in the bottom half 29 times.

The system isn't working.


We've made the GF twice recently, one of them we earned the right to a home final.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm pointing out why the old faithful will refuse to change.
HOGG SHIELD DIVISION V WINNER 2018.
User avatar
Lightning McQueen
Coach
 
Posts: 39137
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:43 am
Location: Radiator Springs
Has liked: 2735 times
Been liked: 4906 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Tony Clifton » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:26 am

I'd argue that the bigger problem is higher up, once players are into the Shield and 2nd XI squad.

The players seem to come into Shield ranks and go ok initially. Eg Nielsen made a ton early on, Dalton some early 50s and whacked Starc + the NSW attack around for a hundred run opening partnership. Etc. Once they've been in the team for a while though they seem to lose their way, stop improving, regress. Other teams learn a bit about them and target their weaknesses.

SA punches at or above their weight at U17 and U19 level (usually). Players come through our system with ability at least comparable with the other states.

However once they reach 23 or 24 years of age they are the same player they were at 18 or 19.

For example Ben Pengelley is still a talented ball striker who is a fraction loose technically and slightly questionable against the short ball. Exactly the same description that could have been leveled at him 3-4 seasons ago. Why has he not progressed? He is on contract and one of the more talented players coming through our local pathway. Who takes ownership over his improvement? It isn't grade cricket.

No one is the finished product at 18 or 19.
This is Tony Clifton! A name to respect! A name to fear!
User avatar
Tony Clifton
League - Best 21
 
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:00 pm
Has liked: 1028 times
Been liked: 165 times
Grassroots Team: Adelaide University

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Eagles2014 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:39 am

Tony Clifton wrote:I'd argue that the bigger problem is higher up, once players are into the Shield and 2nd XI squad.

The players seem to come into Shield ranks and go ok initially. Eg Nielsen made a ton early on, Dalton some early 50s and whacked Starc + the NSW attack around for a hundred run opening partnership. Etc. Once they've been in the team for a while though they seem to lose their way, stop improving, regress. Other teams learn a bit about them and target their weaknesses.

SA punches at or above their weight at U17 and U19 level (usually). Players come through our system with ability at least comparable with the other states.

However once they reach 23 or 24 years of age they are the same player they were at 18 or 19.

For example Ben Pengelley is still a talented ball striker who is a fraction loose technically and slightly questionable against the short ball. Exactly the same description that could have been leveled at him 3-4 seasons ago. Why has he not progressed? He is on contract and one of the more talented players coming through our local pathway. Who takes ownership over his improvement? It isn't grade cricket.

No one is the finished product at 18 or 19.


Excellent post, lots of great points made.

Pengelly not the only one, same was said of Jake Winter, could not play the short ball and good bowlers targeted that, applies to Harry Nielsen, Travis Head, etc too. Amazing full time cricketers dont work on these deficiencies!

I am not against mergers so to speak, or having relegation/promotion system, etc, but this is not the reason the Redbacks are crap. Only three years ago we were in Shield finals, one being a home final, were in One day finals regularly, and nobody was mentioning mergers then. It is an absolute cop out to blame Grade cricket as the reason. What has changed from couple of years ago?? Just an easy thing for people on the outside to say.
Eagles2014
League - Best 21
 
 
Posts: 1546
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:56 pm
Has liked: 0 time
Been liked: 183 times
Grassroots Team: Henley

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby The Bedge » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:43 am

Tony Clifton wrote:For example Ben Pengelley is still a talented ball striker who is a fraction loose technically and slightly questionable against the short ball. Exactly the same description that could have been leveled at him 3-4 seasons ago. Why has he not progressed? He is on contract and one of the more talented players coming through our local pathway. Who takes ownership over his improvement? It isn't grade cricket..

Perhaps this is part of the problem - too many are obsessed with finding the technically perfect/ aesthetically pleasing player, instead of showing more faith with natural talent.

Chuck the likes of Pengelley in the deep end, give them opportunity to adapt to 1st class cricket.. if they're being exposed through their deficiencies at that level then they're more likely to work on them and improve or at least adapt their game. At grade level there is less need because they'll naturally get by anyway.
Dolphin Treasure wrote:Your an attention seeking embarsement..
User avatar
The Bedge
Coach
 
 
Posts: 11165
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Has liked: 2578 times
Been liked: 2685 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Minimum Chips » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:46 am

Eagles2014 wrote:
Tony Clifton wrote:I'd argue that the bigger problem is higher up, once players are into the Shield and 2nd XI squad.

The players seem to come into Shield ranks and go ok initially. Eg Nielsen made a ton early on, Dalton some early 50s and whacked Starc + the NSW attack around for a hundred run opening partnership. Etc. Once they've been in the team for a while though they seem to lose their way, stop improving, regress. Other teams learn a bit about them and target their weaknesses.

SA punches at or above their weight at U17 and U19 level (usually). Players come through our system with ability at least comparable with the other states.

However once they reach 23 or 24 years of age they are the same player they were at 18 or 19.

For example Ben Pengelley is still a talented ball striker who is a fraction loose technically and slightly questionable against the short ball. Exactly the same description that could have been leveled at him 3-4 seasons ago. Why has he not progressed? He is on contract and one of the more talented players coming through our local pathway. Who takes ownership over his improvement? It isn't grade cricket.

No one is the finished product at 18 or 19.


Excellent post, lots of great points made.

Pengelly not the only one, same was said of Jake Winter, could not play the short ball and good bowlers targeted that, applies to Harry Nielsen, Travis Head, etc too. Amazing full time cricketers dont work on these deficiencies!

I am not against mergers so to speak, or having relegation/promotion system, etc, but this is not the reason the Redbacks are crap. Only three years ago we were in Shield finals, one being a home final, were in One day finals regularly, and nobody was mentioning mergers then. It is an absolute cop out to blame Grade cricket as the reason. What has changed from couple of years ago?? Just an easy thing for people on the outside to say.

Agreed - excellent commentary here. I don't think it's grade cricket to entirely blame either. Could it be the coaching within the senior Redbacks system is not up to scratch? Why aren't these players improving against the short ball etc.
Agree that we do punch above our weight in the juniors. There's always been players who more than hold their own at state level (we've had 2 home grown products picked in the last 2 u/19 world cups - I don't count L Scott in that) so we must be doing something right with the juniors. It just seems that when they get into the senior ranks that it has been going pear-shaped over the past few years.
Minimum Chips
Rookie
 
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:04 pm
Has liked: 7 times
Been liked: 8 times
Grassroots Team: Bute

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby helicopterking » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:09 pm

Also, not as many seasoned cricketers going around anymore. The age demographic at clubs now would be the youngest it’s ever been.
These talented kids aren’t progressing because they are still playing against the same guys they have since they were 17-18.
Would struggle to Find more then 2-3 in most teams over the age of 28+ That aren’t Redback players.
User avatar
helicopterking
Coach
 
Posts: 5516
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 10:38 pm
Has liked: 290 times
Been liked: 643 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Tony Clifton » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:57 pm

helicopterking wrote:Also, not as many seasoned cricketers going around anymore. The age demographic at clubs now would be the youngest it’s ever been.
These talented kids aren’t progressing because they are still playing against the same guys they have since they were 17-18.
Would struggle to Find more then 2-3 in most teams over the age of 28+ That aren’t Redback players.

That's certainly correct

C and D Grade used to contain some former A/B Graders, a few decent lower grade players who admittedly wouldn't play higher but were decent at that level and then a few kids with ability who could player higher in time.

A pretty tough school and a good breeding ground. Now it is kids vs kids and the older players are mostly ageing/tired/sore who just can't bear to give the game up on a Saturday (or filling in as a favour) more so than being the best mentors/leaders for the next generation.

Clubs tend to bypass D Grade altogether if they have a talented 15-16 year old and often bypass C Grade too. Has made those grades somewhat redundant except at the strongest clubs.
This is Tony Clifton! A name to respect! A name to fear!
User avatar
Tony Clifton
League - Best 21
 
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:00 pm
Has liked: 1028 times
Been liked: 165 times
Grassroots Team: Adelaide University

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Tony Clifton » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:04 pm

There's been a worrying trend of players dropping out of cricket altogether at 18-21 years of age.

Alex Reardon, Riley Robinson, Blake Gutschke, Lucas Froude, Jake Winter. Kyle Giniotis though he has come back. Josh Hoffmann and Josh Pengelley I believe have had time away from cricket over the last 12 months. Harvey Brennan dropped out of the U19 squad. I'm sure there are others.

A smaller state with a smaller talent pool we can't afford to be leaking promising players.

Lots of these players have been in the State U/19 program where everything ramps up a level in terms of commitment and professionalism. Are weekday 6am weights sessions really that important for teenagers as they go through Year 12? Apart from killing their love of the game what is being achieved?
This is Tony Clifton! A name to respect! A name to fear!
User avatar
Tony Clifton
League - Best 21
 
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:00 pm
Has liked: 1028 times
Been liked: 165 times
Grassroots Team: Adelaide University

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Booney » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:05 pm

Eagles2014 wrote:Only three years ago we were in Shield finals, one being a home final, were in One day finals regularly, and nobody was mentioning mergers then.


Look deeper.

15/16 3 teams won 5 games ( SA, Vic, NSW ) we were the only ones to lose 5, Vic lost 3 drew 2, NSW lost 2, drew 3. We got the home final by 0.5 of a point ( 49.63 v 49.13 ) on the back of Mennie and Worrall taking 95 wickets between them.

16/17 we fell in ahead of WA by under 2 points ( 47.24 v 45.48 ) on the back of Sayers taking 62 wickets at 19.

Our only two good results in the last 25 years have been falling into the spot in the final on the back of some exceptional individual performances. Across the board our batting, bowling and fielding isn't good enough and that's all about development across the board.
PAFC. Forever.

LOOK OUT, WE'RE COMING!
User avatar
Booney
Coach
 
 
Posts: 46471
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:47 pm
Location: Alberton proud
Has liked: 4596 times
Been liked: 7632 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby heater31 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:13 pm

Booney wrote:Across the board our batting, bowling and fielding isn't good enough and that's all about development across the board.


That development falls at the feet of the SACA High Performance department. Premier Cricket clubs can only take them to a certain point as their coaching departments are probably about 1/3 of SACA's
User avatar
heater31
Moderator
 
 
Posts: 15589
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:42 am
Location: the back blocks
Has liked: 463 times
Been liked: 1099 times

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Tony Clifton » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:17 pm

The merger stuff last time was such a negative, clubs felt like they were having their hearts ripped out. Hundred years of history destroyed

However they seem to have been able to do it in Victoria. Quite a few clubs have merged there by the looks? I wonder how they did it.

I quite like the idea of a two division system, like English county cricket. Perhaps an eight team Division 1 with criteria used as one poster listed above. Historical performance, strength of juniors, women's cricket presence at the club, history of producing state senior/junior players, facilities, finances etc.

The remaining five existing teams in Division 2 with three new 'licenses' up for grabs for ATCA clubs or expansion areas of Adelaide (Mt Barker, Gawler)

Div 2 premier promoted each season, Div 1 wooden spooner relegated.

All contracted players must be playing for a Div 1 club.

Means no merger angst but still hopefully strengthens the competition.
This is Tony Clifton! A name to respect! A name to fear!
User avatar
Tony Clifton
League - Best 21
 
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:00 pm
Has liked: 1028 times
Been liked: 165 times
Grassroots Team: Adelaide University

Re: Australian Domestic Cricket 2019-20

Postby Booney » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:24 pm

heater31 wrote:
Booney wrote:Across the board our batting, bowling and fielding isn't good enough and that's all about development across the board.


That development falls at the feet of the SACA High Performance department. Premier Cricket clubs can only take them to a certain point as their coaching departments are probably about 1/3 of SACA's


Granted.

If the competition below isn't strong, if it isn't competitive then the standouts in grade cricket aren't going to always be elite talent, they're just the best of an ordinary bunch.The elite competition has much merit, the best against the best and we'll potentially weed out those who aren't up to representing the state.
PAFC. Forever.

LOOK OUT, WE'RE COMING!
User avatar
Booney
Coach
 
 
Posts: 46471
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:47 pm
Location: Alberton proud
Has liked: 4596 times
Been liked: 7632 times

PreviousNext

Board index   Other Sports  Cricket

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests