STEVE WAUGH overated ? choker?

[blink]

A handful of poor 2nd Innings performances become irrelevant when we are talking about a player of Steve Waugh's ablitity. Some performances may have been below his usual high standards, but overrated he is certainly most not. Top batsman, top captain and in his day, a fine bowler.

[mal]

RIK E BOY

Point taken about being new on the site
and showing no respect to SW.

This business all started when a mate
brought it to my attention recently so
i decided to bring it up , he had done the
stats ....I also thought it was not true.

Once again sorry to all if you are offended
whether I am right or wrong.

[Rik E Boy]

Cheers Mal. We are all on the Bangladesh thread stressing out!

regards,

REB

[am Bays]

JIMMY STAN ROD ROOSTER
1980 TASSIE MEDALIST
BOONEY DOGGIES 4 EVA
BLINK AND RIK E BOY

Please read my introduction.

I loved watching Steve Waugh he was a
FIRST innings superstar, he won many test
matches with his efforts early in the game.

But do your stats on his efforts on chasing low
totals batting last in a TEST match.

I am not talking about one day cricket either.
I am not talking first innings efforts.

When some one out there with statistical
evidence porovides the facts you will all
be shocked.

PS I reacted like all of you initally but
once again check the stats evidence.

Mal everythiing I cited was based on 2nd innings performances.

If your mate is including melbourne 1998 tell him to think again as Waugh had red inks when the last three wickets decided to get themselves out when in the first innings he backed them to mae runs and McGill made 20 odd.

So what his 1st inning average is 61 and his 2nd innings average is 32? Hardly choking especially when you a batting on a dodgy 4th innings wicket on day 5. It has been common knowledge to Australian cricket that it is the 1st inning is what counts and what their game plan has been based on.

Big tons in the 1st innings and in the early tests, which is what he produced.

And it is not just SR Waugh the other 10 blokes need to have a good hard look at themselves

[mal]

RIK E BOY

Good point i am new to the site and point taken.

This imformation on Waugh was from a mate and i was
just as surprised as all about the statistical evidence.

Whether I am right or wrong i apologise to all of you.

[Dissident]

There are very few players with higher second innings averages than first innings, by virtue of the fact that's how cricket is played.

A pitch deteriorates over the 5 days, and scores are *generally* less as the days go on.
Targets in the second innings can be small, meaning losing your wicket for 30 chasing 150 doesn't matter as MUCH as chasing 400 on the first innings.

I think the nature of cricket dictates lower second innings averages for everyone.

[Adelaide Hawk]

Steve Waugh - champion. End of story.

[dinglinga]

choking??????

based on times Steve Waugh batted in the 4th innings of a game

batted 11 times we won 7 times drew 2 lost 2

in what way is he a chocker ...

[dinglinga]

other steve waugh stats

of the 11 times he won the toss and fielded first we won 11 times

of the 20 times he won the toss and batted first we won 12 times drew 1 lost 7 times

[scott]

Steve Waugh - champion. End of story.

Have you read his autobiography?

Good read, that. Backs up your post too.

[Ecky]

There are very few players with higher second innings averages than first innings, by virtue of the fact that's how cricket is played.

A pitch deteriorates over the 5 days, and scores are *generally* less as the days go on.
Targets in the second innings can be small, meaning losing your wicket for 30 chasing 150 doesn't matter as MUCH as chasing 400 on the first innings.

I think the nature of cricket dictates lower second innings averages for everyone.

Another main factor why second innings averages tend to be lower is that if you are

1) playing on a very good pitch or
2) are playing against a weak side

than you don't often bat in the second innings.

So your second innings scores are predominantly against good attacks and/or bad pitches.

[spell_check]

Certainly agree with both Dissident and Ecky.

I don't think I'd ever put S. Waugh and choker in the same sentence. You cannot say based on the 2nd innings, for sure.

[mal]

1980 TASSIE MEDALLIST
ECKY
DISSIDENT

Great responses.

TASSIE i noticed SW has an average of 61 in ist
innings of tests, that would be close to the best
of any Australian batsman...great stat thanks.....

ECKY I acknowledge that if he did bat in the fourth
and last innings that he was invariably batting against
the better test nations.

DISSIDENT also had a good point about deterioating
pitches and making 30 chasing 150 is standard.

Has anyone got some stats for Australia batting last
and chasing smallish totals and how SW fared in those
particular matches.

[Rik E Boy]

1980 TASSIE MEDALLIST
ECKY
DISSIDENT

Great responses.

TASSIE i noticed SW has an average of 61 in ist
innings of tests, that would be close to the best
of any Australian batsman...great stat thanks.....

ECKY I acknowledge that if he did bat in the fourth
and last innings that he was invariably batting against
the better test nations.

DISSIDENT also had a good point about deterioating
pitches and making 30 chasing 150 is standard.

Has anyone got some stats for Australia batting last
and chasing smallish totals and how SW fared in those
particular matches.

Well Malcolm, seeing as you started this thread.....perhaps a PM to one Mr Spellcheck may be in order. If he can't research those facts you seek, then no one can.

regards,

REB

[spell_check]

I have used Cricinfos' filter to find his 4th innings totals, then worked out the targets:

Code: Select all

                    Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St
unfiltered           168 10927 200   51.06  32  50  92  5/28   37.44  3 112  0
filtered             116   613  80   25.54   0   2  11  4/34   27.81  0  17  0
 
Runs  W/R   Ct St I *+ Result                        Match                       Target to win
  10   -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v NZ  in Aus 1987/88 at Melbourne [1087]         247 (made 230)
  19   -     -  - 4    D 2nd Test  v Pak in Pak 1988/89 at Faisalabad [1105]        374 (67)
  26   -     -  - 4    L 2nd Test  v WI  in Aus 1988/89 at Perth [1110]             404 (234)
   3   -     -  - 4    L 3rd Test  v WI  in Aus 1988/89 at Melbourne [1112]         400 (114)
  21*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Eng 1989    at Lord's [1122]            118
   4   -     -  - 4    D 2nd Test  v Pak in Aus 1989/90 at Adelaide [1135]          304 (233)       
   4*  -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v WI  in WI  1990/91 at Bridgetown [1169]        552 (208)
   4   -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v WI  in Aus 1992/93 at Adelaide [1210]          186 (184)
  47*  -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v Eng in Eng 1993    at Nottingham [1225]        371 (202)
  26   -     -  - 4    L 6th Test  v Eng in Eng 1993    at The Oval [1231]          391 (229)
   0   -     -  - 4    L 1st Test  v SA  in SA  1993/94 at Johannesburg [1252]      454 (256)
   0   -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v Eng in Aus 1994/95 at Sydney [1281]            449 (344)
   0   -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 1994/95 at Adelaide [1284]          263 (156)
  14   -     -  - 4    L 3rd Test  v Pak in Aus 1995/96 at Sydney [1314]            247 (172)     
  18   -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v SA  in SA  1996/97 at Port Elizabeth [1360]    271
   6   -     -  - 4    L 6th Test  v Eng in Eng 1997    at The Oval [1377]          124 (104)
  34   -     -  - 4    D 3rd Test  v SA  in Aus 1997/98 at Adelaide [1397]          361 (227)
  27   -     -  - 4    L 1st Test  v Ind in Ind 1997/98 at Chennai [1405]           348 (168)
  15*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Perth [1431]              64
  30*  -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Melbourne [1436]         175 (162)
  28   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v Pak in Aus 1999/00 at Hobart [1469]            369
  15   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v NZ  in NZ  1999/00 at Wellington [1491]        177
  18*  -     -  - 4 *  W 3rd Test  v NZ  in NZ  1999/00 at Hamilton [1493]          212
  38   -     -  - 4 *  W 5th Test  v WI  in Aus 2000/01 at Sydney [1527]            174
  24   -     -  - 4 *  L 2nd Test  v Ind in Ind 2000/01 at Kolkata [1535]           384 (212)
   1*retired hurt 4 *  W 3rd Test  v Eng in Eng 2001    at Nottingham [1554]        158   
  67   -     -  - 4 *  D 3rd Test  v NZ  in Aus 2001/02 at Perth [1573]             439 (381)   
  14   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v SA  in SA  2001/02 at Cape Town [1593]         334
  14   -     -  - 4 *  W 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 2002/03 at Melbourne [1634]         107         
   6   -     -  - 4 *  L 5th Test  v Eng in Aus 2002/03 at Sydney [1636]            452
  80   -     -  - 4 *  D 4th Test  v Ind in Aus 2003/04 at Sydney [1680]            443 (357)

Now just those that the target was less than 200:

Code: Select all

Runs  W/R   Ct St I *+ Result                        Match                       Target to win
  21*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Eng 1989    at Lord's [1122]            118
   4   -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v WI  in Aus 1992/93 at Adelaide [1210]          186 (184)
   6   -     -  - 4    L 6th Test  v Eng in Eng 1997    at The Oval [1377]          124 (104)
  15*  -     -  - 4    W 2nd Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Perth [1431]              64
  30*  -     -  - 4    L 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 1998/99 at Melbourne [1436]         175 (162)
  15   -     -  - 4 *  W 2nd Test  v NZ  in NZ  1999/00 at Wellington [1491]        177
  38   -     -  - 4 *  W 5th Test  v WI  in Aus 2000/01 at Sydney [1527]            174
   1*retired hurt 4 *  W 3rd Test  v Eng in Eng 2001    at Nottingham [1554]        158
  14   -     -  - 4 *  W 4th Test  v Eng in Aus 2002/03 at Melbourne [1634]         107

[am Bays]

right Wedgie ban this bloke, 1 year to get back to us is nothing short of disgraceful, take a good hard look at yourself Spelly......

[spell_check]

right Wedgie ban this bloke, 1 year to get back to us is nothing short of disgraceful, take a good hard look at yourself Spelly......

Hard to please.

[spell_check]

right Wedgie ban this bloke, 1 year to get back to us is nothing short of disgraceful, take a good hard look at yourself Spelly......

Hard to please.

[Dogwatcher]

Hmmmm....one year on and the debate rages.

I don't care Steve Waugh was a champ.

[smac]

Has this been on your to-do list for 12 months spelly, or did you stumble across the thread? That's amazing my friend...

The stats are interesting though.