Barnesy's plea for northern suburbs

[Dogwatcher]

FC, this is not attacking your beliefs, rather my perspective and response to some of your points.

DW - If it's a minority, then why is it such an issue? Why is there a 38% unemployment rate?

Because like all people we have a choice whether we want to take a job or not.
Unfortunately not all of these people are keen to work in a chicken factory or as a cleaner (these aren't necessarily bad jobs - but they are jobs that not everyone wants).
Luckily we (you, me, Smac and most others on this site) had a choice about the jobs we took.
Luckily we had parents who could point us in the right direction to make that choice.
Unfortunately, there are fewer industries operating in Elizabeth now - not everyone can work at Holden's.
Factories and businesses are closing down - remember Levi's?
Yeah sure the defence industry is opening up down there. But how many rocket scientists do you know? How many are likely to come from Elizabeth (ha ha ha, I can hear you laughing now), they have to search the world to employ people for there.
Again any jobs Elizabethans might get at the DSTO etc are cleaning jobs.
The jobs remaining are menial - if you get as much money signing on, then why work? What would you do given the choice?
Also, many of these unemployed are physically or mentally disabled - they don't have the support networks or the financial support from their parents to get by that people in wealthier suburbs might have.
It's easy to sit back and say go get a job you lazy pricks - but the reality is a lot different.

BTW - my father was among those unemployable. I lived on those streets where these things happen and make interesting news stories and stories of horror for those who have the fortune not to have been brought up in that way of life. I'm not saying it was an easy life and that everyone should be looked after - just providing a perspective on what it can be like.

I'm lucky I was able to make the right choices.

I may be branded a bleeding heart liberal for my thoughts on this but at least I've witnessed the life and got to understand it, unlike some who make pronouncements on the issue and think it's easy to get out. Elizabeth was set up to become a 'slum' and in the eyes of many, that's all it became (like many societal projects the world over).

I also expect there are people out there who will shoot down my points and they're welcome to.

[Dogwatcher]

Sorry, just used it as an example. But how can you also suggest that the fact they didn't finish school doesn't reflect on them? They CHOSE not to finish school, they CHOSE not to try and better themselves through education. Surely you can't blame the government for them not finishing school? Parent's? probably..and that's my point and so these kids didn't finish school and are possibly doing exactly what their parents did...nothing. Chances are these people have had kids and so on... surely you can see the point Im trying to get at. It's a viscious cycle that has moulded over generations and is going to be a tough nut to crack, no matter how much the government throw at them.

I really hope they can...I really do.

I don't blame the government but in many ways I blame a system which can't cater for those who don't have the desire to get the education provided to them at schools. Every school system has its drop outs.
BTW - how many people in your year 7 photo finished school?

[Footy Chick]

Because like all people we have a choice whether we want to take a job or not.
Unfortunately not all of these people are keen to work in a chicken factory or as a cleaner (these aren't necessarily bad jobs - but they are jobs that not everyone wants).
Unfortunately, there are fewer industries operating in Elizabeth now - Factories and businesses are closing down - remember Levi's?
Again any jobs Elizabethans might get at the DSTO etc are cleaning jobs.
The jobs remaining are menial - if you get as much money signing on, then why work? What would you do given the choice?

That's exactly what I said before.. they're taking advantage of the system buy choosing to do nothing rather than go out and earn an honest living? What gives these people the right to think that cleaning is beyond them?

What do industries in Elizabeth have to do with it? I would understand if Elizabeth was a country town but these people have cars, why do they have to work in Elizabeth, it's not so far away from town anymore.. people in Sydney travel up to 2 hours one way to get to work..

Also, many of these unemployed are physically or mentally disabled - they don't have the support networks or the financial support from their parents to get by that people in wealthier suburbs might have.

Physical disability is understandable, laziness is not a mental disability (just as I dont think ADHD is a mental disability..but that's another argument) What % of Australians have some sort of mental disability? What if they ALL decided they didn't want to work?

It's easy to sit back and say go get a job you lazy pricks - but the reality is a lot different.

I'm sure the reality for a small portion is different but reality states that there are a lot of people happy to live off the system.

on this but at least I've witnessed the life and got to understand it, unlike some who make pronouncements on the issue and think it's easy to get out.

I have not once assumed it was easy to get out, I've merely stated that there some that just don't want the help, which was my original argument. The lightbulb has to WANT to change... you cant argue with that...

I haven't seen anyone from primary school probably since primary school. However I went to school in the middle of the city where the majority of kids where actually the product of parents who worked in town and from memory the majority of us ended up either at Adelaide High, Glenunga High or private schools. I can guarantee there would have been a couple that went off the rails though.. every school does. My point was they're usually the minority.

[evans01]

FC, this is not attacking your beliefs, rather my perspective and response to some of your points.

DW - If it's a minority, then why is it such an issue? Why is there a 38% unemployment rate?

Because like all people we have a choice whether we want to take a job or not.
Unfortunately not all of these people are keen to work in a chicken factory or as a cleaner (these aren't necessarily bad jobs - but they are jobs that not everyone wants).
Luckily we (you, me, Smac and most others on this site) had a choice about the jobs we took.
Luckily we had parents who could point us in the right direction to make that choice.
Unfortunately, there are fewer industries operating in Elizabeth now - not everyone can work at Holden's.
Factories and businesses are closing down - remember Levi's?
Yeah sure the defence industry is opening up down there. But how many rocket scientists do you know? How many are likely to come from Elizabeth (ha ha ha, I can hear you laughing now), they have to search the world to employ people for there.
Again any jobs Elizabethans might get at the DSTO etc are cleaning jobs.
The jobs remaining are menial - if you get as much money signing on, then why work? What would you do given the choice?
Also, many of these unemployed are physically or mentally disabled - they don't have the support networks or the financial support from their parents to get by that people in wealthier suburbs might have.
It's easy to sit back and say go get a job you lazy pricks - but the reality is a lot different.

BTW - my father was among those unemployable. I lived on those streets where these things happen and make interesting news stories and stories of horror for those who have the fortune not to have been brought up in that way of life. I'm not saying it was an easy life and that everyone should be looked after - just providing a perspective on what it can be like.

I'm lucky I was able to make the right choices.

I may be branded a bleeding heart liberal for my thoughts on this but at least I've witnessed the life and got to understand it, unlike some who make pronouncements on the issue and think it's easy to get out. Elizabeth was set up to become a 'slum' and in the eyes of many, that's all it became (like many societal projects the world over).

I also expect there are people out there who will shoot down my points and they're welcome to.

agreed DW.........i was born and breed their and can honestly say that as a youngster the Northern suburbs was full of hard working (blue collar) people.....but over time that changed and in many cases for the worse, the gap between unemployment benefits and lower paid jobs grew less and less and sadly almost a welfare state was created.....................

dont get me wrong everyone who is capable of employment could and should be actively seeking jobs and/or employed............

one of the huge problems is many of the kids in these areas are 2-3 generation
welfare recipients and know no different, sure no excuse buts its a really difficult cycle to break especially when we as humans we generally take the easy option............

hopefully in time and with some tough decisions things can and will change.....but these kind of inititives can only be a positive thing...

[Footy Chick]

FC, this is not attacking your beliefs, rather my perspective and response to some of your points.

DW - If it's a minority, then why is it such an issue? Why is there a 38% unemployment rate?

Because like all people we have a choice whether we want to take a job or not.
Unfortunately not all of these people are keen to work in a chicken factory or as a cleaner (these aren't necessarily bad jobs - but they are jobs that not everyone wants).
Luckily we (you, me, Smac and most others on this site) had a choice about the jobs we took.
Luckily we had parents who could point us in the right direction to make that choice.
Unfortunately, there are fewer industries operating in Elizabeth now - not everyone can work at Holden's.
Factories and businesses are closing down - remember Levi's?
Yeah sure the defence industry is opening up down there. But how many rocket scientists do you know? How many are likely to come from Elizabeth (ha ha ha, I can hear you laughing now), they have to search the world to employ people for there.
Again any jobs Elizabethans might get at the DSTO etc are cleaning jobs.
The jobs remaining are menial - if you get as much money signing on, then why work? What would you do given the choice?
Also, many of these unemployed are physically or mentally disabled - they don't have the support networks or the financial support from their parents to get by that people in wealthier suburbs might have.
It's easy to sit back and say go get a job you lazy pricks - but the reality is a lot different.

BTW - my father was among those unemployable. I lived on those streets where these things happen and make interesting news stories and stories of horror for those who have the fortune not to have been brought up in that way of life. I'm not saying it was an easy life and that everyone should be looked after - just providing a perspective on what it can be like.

I'm lucky I was able to make the right choices.

I may be branded a bleeding heart liberal for my thoughts on this but at least I've witnessed the life and got to understand it, unlike some who make pronouncements on the issue and think it's easy to get out. Elizabeth was set up to become a 'slum' and in the eyes of many, that's all it became (like many societal projects the world over).

I also expect there are people out there who will shoot down my points and they're welcome to.

agreed DW.........i was born and breed their and can honestly say that as a youngster the Northern suburbs was full of hard working (blue collar) people.....but over time that changed and in many cases for the worse, the gap between unemployment benefits and lower paid jobs grew less and less and sadly almost a welfare state was created.....................

dont get me wrong everyone who is capable of employment could and should be actively seeking jobs and/or employed............

one of the huge problems is many of the kids in these areas are 2-3 generation
welfare recipients and know no different, sure no excuse buts its a really difficult cycle to break especially when we as humans we generally take the easy option............

hopefully in time and with some tough decisions things can and will change.....but these kind of inititives can only be a positive thing...

Isn't that what I just said (in a round about sorta way?)

[evans01]

FC, this is not attacking your beliefs, rather my perspective and response to some of your points.

DW - If it's a minority, then why is it such an issue? Why is there a 38% unemployment rate?

Because like all people we have a choice whether we want to take a job or not.
Unfortunately not all of these people are keen to work in a chicken factory or as a cleaner (these aren't necessarily bad jobs - but they are jobs that not everyone wants).
Luckily we (you, me, Smac and most others on this site) had a choice about the jobs we took.
Luckily we had parents who could point us in the right direction to make that choice.
Unfortunately, there are fewer industries operating in Elizabeth now - not everyone can work at Holden's.
Factories and businesses are closing down - remember Levi's?
Yeah sure the defence industry is opening up down there. But how many rocket scientists do you know? How many are likely to come from Elizabeth (ha ha ha, I can hear you laughing now), they have to search the world to employ people for there.
Again any jobs Elizabethans might get at the DSTO etc are cleaning jobs.
The jobs remaining are menial - if you get as much money signing on, then why work? What would you do given the choice?
Also, many of these unemployed are physically or mentally disabled - they don't have the support networks or the financial support from their parents to get by that people in wealthier suburbs might have.
It's easy to sit back and say go get a job you lazy pricks - but the reality is a lot different.

BTW - my father was among those unemployable. I lived on those streets where these things happen and make interesting news stories and stories of horror for those who have the fortune not to have been brought up in that way of life. I'm not saying it was an easy life and that everyone should be looked after - just providing a perspective on what it can be like.

I'm lucky I was able to make the right choices.

I may be branded a bleeding heart liberal for my thoughts on this but at least I've witnessed the life and got to understand it, unlike some who make pronouncements on the issue and think it's easy to get out. Elizabeth was set up to become a 'slum' and in the eyes of many, that's all it became (like many societal projects the world over).

I also expect there are people out there who will shoot down my points and they're welcome to.

agreed DW.........i was born and breed their and can honestly say that as a youngster the Northern suburbs was full of hard working (blue collar) people.....but over time that changed and in many cases for the worse, the gap between unemployment benefits and lower paid jobs grew less and less and sadly almost a welfare state was created.....................

dont get me wrong everyone who is capable of employment could and should be actively seeking jobs and/or employed............

one of the huge problems is many of the kids in these areas are 2-3 generation
welfare recipients and know no different, sure no excuse buts its a really difficult cycle to break especially when we as humans we generally take the easy option............

hopefully in time and with some tough decisions things can and will change.....but these kind of inititives can only be a positive thing...

Isn't that what I just said (in a round about sorta way?)

FC i agreed with you 100%
i suppose i was lucky as both my parents worked, later having their own business so even though i was aware of the issues, i personally had great roles models and I'm sure that make an huge difference...........

[Psyber]

FC, this is not attacking your beliefs, rather my perspective and response to some of your points.

DW - If it's a minority, then why is it such an issue? Why is there a 38% unemployment rate?

Because like all people we have a choice whether we want to take a job or not.
Unfortunately not all of these people are keen to work in a chicken factory or as a cleaner (these aren't necessarily bad jobs - but they are jobs that not everyone wants).
Luckily we (you, me, Smac and most others on this site) had a choice about the jobs we took.
Luckily we had parents who could point us in the right direction to make that choice.
Unfortunately, there are fewer industries operating in Elizabeth now - not everyone can work at Holden's.
Factories and businesses are closing down - remember Levi's?
Yeah sure the defence industry is opening up down there. But how many rocket scientists do you know? How many are likely to come from Elizabeth (ha ha ha, I can hear you laughing now), they have to search the world to employ people for there.
Again any jobs Elizabethans might get at the DSTO etc are cleaning jobs.
The jobs remaining are menial - if you get as much money signing on, then why work? What would you do given the choice?
Also, many of these unemployed are physically or mentally disabled - they don't have the support networks or the financial support from their parents to get by that people in wealthier suburbs might have.
It's easy to sit back and say go get a job you lazy pricks - but the reality is a lot different.

BTW - my father was among those unemployable. I lived on those streets where these things happen and make interesting news stories and stories of horror for those who have the fortune not to have been brought up in that way of life. I'm not saying it was an easy life and that everyone should be looked after - just providing a perspective on what it can be like.

I'm lucky I was able to make the right choices.

I may be branded a bleeding heart liberal for my thoughts on this but at least I've witnessed the life and got to understand it, unlike some who make pronouncements on the issue and think it's easy to get out. Elizabeth was set up to become a 'slum' and in the eyes of many, that's all it became (like many societal projects the world over).

I also expect there are people out there who will shoot down my points and they're welcome to.

The last rocket scientist there I knew lived at Rosslyn Park.

I find myself a bit mixed in my emotions about working and living on benefits as alternatives. Sometimes, I have been disenchanted with what I have done, and have felt I was trying to help people who were not trying themselves, and I considered it as an option, but knew it would not sustain a standard of living acceptable to me, and that I could not really accept it, regardless of the standard of living issue.

Yet, I grew up in Bowden and Brompton, then West Croydon, and rode my bike through Kilkenny to Woodville High, as did my older sister. My father had severe asthma and when I was about 13 he was faced with the option of an "Invalid Pension", or the alternative of taking a clerical assistant's job in the SA Railways on lower pay than he had been getting as a Fitter's Assistant. He kept working despite the struggle. My older sister left school age 16, mainly for financial reasons, and did night courses after her first couple of years working in a factory. She, ultimately, made a millionaire of herself in Real Estate through that effort. She was a big factor in my being able to go to University.

I took various jobs as a student - parcel post, cleaning, process worker at ICI at Port Adelaide, Bus Conductor, all to reduce the load on the family, and not demand too much of my sister's generiousity.

So, I am a little puzzled/disillusioned by those who appear to just wave their paws in the air and claim being "disadvantaged" and unable to help themselves. All my poor relatives have appeared to be so due to unavoidable alcohol, cigarette, and gambling expenditures.

[zipzap]

All well and good, but Barnsey seems to be taking pot shots from afar whilst reminiscing about the 'good old days' - which nobody in their right mind would want to return to - and offering no tangible ideas whatsoever beyond:

"There needs to be renewal of the infrastructure to keep stimulating the population there and keep
moving and changing and opening new opportunities for people."

Er, what does that mean exactly Barnsey and how do we do it?

Or this stroke of genius:

"There is a lot of creative stuff that could be done in Elizabeth - the Government just needs to
think about it."

Brilliant. Problem solved.

[smac]

To think he is anything more than a tool (some may say that's an appropriate choice of words) or face of the project is folly - he would have no idea what needs to be done.

He is contributing in the best way he can, his skills are in promoting and performing.

[BenchedEagle]

My best mate lived in Elizabeth for about 12 months (apparently in what was back then one of the worst streets, just near Elizabeth Oval somewhere and not by choice) She said she would never go outside after dark and would never make eye contact with most of her neighbours, she said she witnessed drug deals, prostitution, neighbours breaking into each others houses, kids killing animals just in this one street. How do you think the government is going to change these peoples mind set?

Bagot st, Elizabeth South??? yeah a bit dodge there.
I grew up in the area of Elizabeth North/Elizabeth Downs and ive been out in middle of night many many times in strange parts of that area and all over Elizabeth, never had one problem. Of course things happen, same in any area. Ever been to the eastside of Taperoo? Hung out at Reynella shops at night? Arndale on a thursday night? There is some pure ghetto people there!

I love Elizabeth and no matter what anyone say's im proud to be a lizbethan

[tigersupporter]

I agree with duncs....lived here all my life...no real dramas that does not happen any where else.....and jimmy barnes...........never has a good word to say about this place....just ask the people who use to work with him before he was famous.....now he wants to help..

[Strawb]

This is happening everywhere look at Werribee and Melbourne's West, Melton in the east Frankston and Dandenong. In Sydney their Western Suburbs people are choosing to take the easy road and not the hard yard roads the government needs to make apprentices more rewarding and get businesses to offer more cash they need it keep them off the jam roll.

[therisingblues]

This is a tough one.
A lot of what Falcon Chick and others have to say makes sense. Basically the welfare payments are too attractive.
I think the government's problem is the infrastructure required to create new jobs out that way, and then adding a wage to that job is going to cost them more than just handing out welfare to the same people. Even if the welfare payments are higher than what they would earn, the cost of the infrastructure makes it more expensive.
This is an assumption, so I might be mistaken on some point. Maybe somebody closer to how these things work could clarify a little more?

Could the answer be for the government to subsidize 2nd or 3rd generation unemployed to do all the menial little jobs that pay less than the dole? In this scenario the govt' would be topping up the money they would get paid by their employer anyway. The govt' doesn't need to create any infrastructure because they'd just be contributing to existing avenues of employment. And it would cost them less, as rather than paying out a full dole cheque, they'd be paying out perhaps half that amount on top of what the employer would be contributing already. The recipient then receives more than the dole for doing something, at less cost to the govt'.
Does this all sound naive?

[yeva]

i suppose i was lucky as both my parents worked, later having their own business so even though i was aware of the issues, i personally had great roles models and I'm sure that make an huge difference...........(quote)
spot on champ..... i too was lucky to have parents that worked hard and gave a sh!T about me and my brothers.
its been mentioned that these kids are 2nd, 3rd generation... its hard to change what is entrenched in them by their parents, ther in lies the key!!!!!
being a teacher in the northern suburbs i have first hand knowledge of what kids are like, what they think and how they apply themselves....... some you can change and some you will die trying but in the end if they(or us as teachers) dont get they backing from their parents then ther is no hope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dirko]

Glenunga High or private schools. I can guarantee there would have been a couple that went off the rails though.. every school does. My point was they're usually the minority.

My best mate went to Glenunga...his old school mates are doing time
He played footy for Glenunga too...back in the day used to look like an episode of Underbelly
was being shot there...

[Lunchcutter]

One Word - OPPORTUNITY

[tigersupporter]

Just for you FC....we live in Craigmore, My wife and I grew up in Elizabeth (North and Downs) I became a Tradesman, and now work at Holdens.
My Eldest son, who is 17, left school at the end of last year (year 11) after completing a Certificate 1 course in Electro-Technology. He desperately wants to get an Apprenticeship, but has not been able to get one. My point here is, you said people have cars and do not have to find work in their own area, and that is quite true, I worked in Kent Town and Norwood during my Apprenticeship. But that was a long time ago, and my son recently had an interview, in Magil, 30 kms away. He said everything seemed to go very well until the man interviewing him said he was worried about him living so far away .Needless to say, he did not get the job. The kid has done just about everthing possible to get a full time job .(he does work part time in a pharmacy though) I think that where you live, does matter.

PS... It's not like he is one of those idiots hanging around with nothing better to do. He plays soccer at Federation level and was Captain for three out of the last five years.

PSS... We travel to a lot of different suburbs for soccer, and most look just the same as ours......

[Dogwatcher]

great post TS.

[tigersupporter]

BTW.... If theres anyone out the needing an Apprentice, for any Trade....... I know someone....

[tigersupporter]

cheers DW