Teachers, an absolute JOKE

[Mic]

There is no way a teacher´s ability\success can be measured.

There are many issues (apart from teacher`s salaries) that the government has not addressed.

If a strike is not the option, what is? Months and months of meetings with the government has achieved nothing, our state governemnt has showed very little interest in improving public education.

[Psyber]

There is no way a teacher´s ability\success can be measured.
There are many issues (apart from teacher`s salaries) that the government has not addressed.
If a strike is not the option, what is? Months and months of meetings with the government has achieved nothing, our state governemnt has showed very little interest in improving public education.

Peer Assessment?
Other teachers should be able to tell who is any good and who isn't, but of course if one is not allowed to assess a child's performance against average, perhaps we can't a teacher's either. I would have thought that was one or the Head's or Deputy's jobs.

In Medicine everyone has to go to a certain number "Peer Review" sessions, in your own unpaid time and present samples of your work, with patient identifying data removed, for comment. [Those in public hospitals usually wangle fitting it in a lunch time overlapping into work time.]

[Dutchy]

There is no way a teacher´s ability\success can be measured.

Huh?

Why the hell not? Everything is measurable in some way...Are you telling me teachers have no formal performace review process?

Surely the Principal would know who his/her performers are/arent? Why wouldnt a survey of the Kids/Parents work (who are the Teachers customers at the end of the day)

Sorry Mic but if you are a teacher, you are the classic case in point...

[The Big Shrek]

Survey of kids/parents! That would mean sucking up to them would make you a good teacher.

Can't measure teacher's sucess on the kids either because there are too many variables.

Peer review. Other teachers are too busy teaching to watch others teach.

How often are there differing opinions on who is a good teacher? Rating teachers is too subjective to be of any value.

[drebin]

Josh Coulter is a teacher and he needs a pay rise as one of his other jobs has now dried up!

North have a bucket load of teachers on the Senior list for what that's worth.

[Dutchy]

Survey of kids/parents! That would mean sucking up to them would make you a good teacher.

Can't measure teacher's sucess on the kids either because there are too many variables.

Peer review. Other teachers are too busy teaching to watch others teach.

How often are there differing opinions on who is a good teacher? Rating teachers is too subjective to be of any value.

so who are teachers responsible to? the above sounds like many excuses not to perform....sounds way too easy for teachers just to cruise through their roles (not saying the majority do this, but allows the lazy ones to do it)

WHo are teachers customers? Kids and Parents...Im sure feedback from them wouldnt be too hard to play a part of a teachers annual review..

[The Big Shrek]

Survey of kids/parents! That would mean sucking up to them would make you a good teacher.

Can't measure teacher's sucess on the kids either because there are too many variables.

Peer review. Other teachers are too busy teaching to watch others teach.

How often are there differing opinions on who is a good teacher? Rating teachers is too subjective to be of any value.

so who are teachers responsible to? the above sounds like many excuses not to perform....sounds way too easy for teachers just to cruise through their roles (not saying the majority do this, but allows the lazy ones to do it)

WHo are teachers customers? Kids and Parents...Im sure feedback from them wouldnt be too hard to play a part of a teachers annual review..

Teachers are responsible to the themselves. Same as all the professions, see Psyber's post.

Kids and parents in general don't have a friggin' clue.

[zipzap]

One essential aspect of measurement should be amount of extra stuff that dedicated teachers currently do without any renumeration or incentive. A lazy teacher who has taught from the same textbook for 20 years and is out the gate at 3.30 gets the same rate of pay - maybe more - as say a dedicated teacher who sticks around long after hours, runs professional development sessions, plans and runs camps, coaches a sporting team, attends workshops and training days, etc etc. Once you've hit the highest pay rate there is no incentive to do any better than the bare minimum, no reason to stick your neck out - it is a system that breeds complacency IMO. Where is it in a teacher's job description that (s)he should take a class far away on camp for several nights, forgetting his/her own family commitments, having duty of care for 30+ kids for 60 or more hours? But many do it every year out of the goodness of their heart and the fact that they enjoy educating young people - which believe it or not, is still the prime motivating force driving most teachers. But you never EVER get any thanks for it I can assure you!

BTW feedback from parents and students should only ever be part of the picture. You can never please everyone - inevitably you get some parents who really value and support what you do, others who are going to give you grief no matter what and blame you for every one of their kids' failings. Teachers are submitted to annual performance management meetings with their line managers like anyone else and are put on poor performance duties if they do not shape up - I've seen this happen. In the case of specialist positions, like my own, contracts are short term which really keeps you on your toes. So yes, teachers are as accountable as any other profession, but like any other profession there are those who push themselves harder than others.

[saintal]

Well put ZipZap

[Mic]

There is no way a teacher´s ability\success can be measured.

Huh?

Why the hell not? Everything is measurable in some way...Are you telling me teachers have no formal performace review process?

Surely the Principal would know who his/her performers are/arent? Why wouldnt a survey of the Kids/Parents work (who are the Teachers customers at the end of the day)

Sorry Mic but if you are a teacher, you are the classic case in point...

I am not telling you teachers do not have a formal performance review process.

Teachers have Performance Management meetings with their Line Managers (Coordinators, APs, DPs, Principals). During these meetings teaching programs are shared, assessment records are shared, student progres and learning are discussed as are any other issues. These occur at least 2 times a year, sometimes 4 times a year.

What makes a `good´ teacher? Is it how warm and naturing they are to their students? Is it how much extra time they spend on extra curricular activities? Is it how much time they spend at home marking, preparing, etc? Is it how modern their teaching techniques are? Is it how good their behaviour management strategies are? Is it how well they help other teachers, display leadership and share their ideas with staff? Is it how up to date their IT skills are? Is it how good they relate to the parents of their students? Is it how good they demonstrate explicit skills to their stduents? Is it how much they let their students negotiate their own learning? Is it how many Training & Development courses they have completed? Is it how quiet their class works? Is it how much they allow their students to be creative? Is it how much fun their class is? Is it how good (or tidy) their classroom looks?

I do not know how the above things (if that is what makes a ´good´teacher) can be measured to work out how much a teacher ´deserves´to be paid.

The Principal (most) would have some generally idea about whether a teacher is performing to a satisfactory standard, but not enough to say he\she deserves more pay.

A survey would (and does) provide very useful feedback, I have done this with students many times. Quite a few parents don't really know what their child is doing\learning about (being an Upper Primary teacher I barely ever see the parents of my students, unless something is wrong). This is not a criticism of parents at all, but many parents just seem happy if their children are happy. Schools also send home surveys to random parents every year.

I am a teacher (although currently on leave travelling around the World).

I don´t understand what you mean by your last sentence.

[Dutchy]

Thanks ZZ...so there is a process in place, thats all I was asking. Like any business there are staff who do bare minimum, they are generally the minority and it sounds like thats the case for teachers. It just doesnt seem to be effective enough to weed out the "dead wood" it seems...unfortuante as they wouldnt last in most businesses.

TBS - I seriously hope your not a current teacher

One more question - Do Private School Teachers get paid more that Public?

I guess Im more interested in schools and teachers now that I have a kid at one!

[Pseudo]

BTW feedback from parents and students should only ever be part of the picture. You can never please everyone - inevitably you get some parents who really value and support what you do, others who are going to give you grief no matter what and blame you for every one of their kids' failings.

As a matter of interest... are the parents who give you grief the same ones who dump their kids at the school and have no further involvement, i.e. don't work on the tuckshop, help with after-hours sports training, etc?

[Lunchcutter]

simple..... just pay for performance pay the good ones 10 - 15k more and the others around the average of 70k... id have no probs with that at all... btw educators do not have the monopoly on having to take work home either......

[zipzap]

As a matter of interest... are the parents who give you grief the same ones who dump their kids at the school and have no further involvement, i.e. don't work on the tuckshop, help with after-hours sports training, etc?

No, because you rarely see those ones anyway. As someone mentioned before, the older the kids are the less you see the parents. I have 6/7s so that is definitely true, though this year I do have some very active, positive parents which is awesome and makes a massive difference. But some you never actually meet. And some you wish you never had...

The worst I have ever come across was a couple last year who basically blamed me for their kid's attitude, illiteracy and general stupidity (pretty ingrained by the time he got to me in Yr 7!). During the course of the year they (falsely) accused me of various things and made my life pretty miserable there for a while - until I got to tear them to shreds in a meeting with the Principal which was extremely satisfying! But the ultimate irony was that the mother is a teacher (at a private school she loved to tell me) and the father is a Uni SA lecturer who trains student teachers! What a scary thought....

[Dogwatcher]

The ultimate irony was that the mother is a teacher (at a private school she loved to tell me) and the father is a Uni SA lecturer who trains student teachers! What a scary thought....

Those ones are often the BEST parents from what I understand

[zipzap]

The ultimate irony was that the mother is a teacher (at a private school she loved to tell me) and the father is a Uni SA lecturer who trains student teachers! What a scary thought....

Those ones are often the BEST parents from what I understand

Well they certainly thought so...

[Mic]

One more question - Do Private School Teachers get paid more that Public?

I believe it is about the same.

[Dogwatcher]

More work expected though. They really do earn their dollars.

[Mic]

More work expected though. They really do earn their dollars.

Sure.

[Squawk]

Could the state teachers out there please inform me of the total package received by teachers. Not having a crack , just would like to know the break up. Wage is one component, however conditions such as super and what teachers can salary sacrifice into all have a monetary value.

For a 10 year teacher I would think total package should be in the order of $ 90K-100K to constitute as a fair and reasonable deal.

Package consisting of : Only my guess next to each item here .

Salary 65 K?
Super 9%? minimum - extra if they make private contributions which are supplemented by more $$$ from Govt. I think the current PS scheme offers 10.5% if a PS puts in 4.5% themselves.
Salary Sacrifice alternatives ? Yes. Whole of Govt but realistically it is only worth taking some of the options.
Annual Leave 4 weeks? Minimum for all. Add "school holidays" which every teacher says they work. IMHO they should have 4 weeks like everyone else and work normal hours while kids are on holidays. It would give them a chance to work on curriculum and mean they could go home earlier in term time.
Sick Leave 8 days? 10-12 days from memory.
Carers Leave 2 days? Think it is up to 5 days but sacrificed from sick leave.
Maternity leave 3 Months paid? 14 weeks
Study Leave etc. ?Yes

Re teacher's performance reviews - yes. But they dont like the skills test because they fear it will be used to rate their own performances.

Private school and public school teachers get very similar pay rates - the private system usually closely mirrors the state system for pay rises so expect a flow on claim in private schools next.

Disclosure - my parents are both retired teachers and I dont think they had to work as hard as me by a long shot. They weren't on call 24/7/365 for starters. They didn't work on nights or weekends as much as I do. They got more leave than me. My salary is higher than a teacher's but a Police Officer with the same equivalent responsibility as me gets paid $30k per annum more than I do, plus ectra super, annual leave and paid overtime and often a fully serviced unmarked car as well.

I spent 10 years negotiating with Nurses, Teachers, Firemen, Police unions etc and if you measure their wage outcomes vs the standard public servant, they have got probably $20k more annum more in that time than the PS. The issue is that so-called "front line" personnel get more sentiment from the government despite the fact that the public service keeps them in office. The second problem for the PS is that being much larger in numbers, the impact of a higher pay rise for them is far greater on the state budget whereas an extra 1% for 1000 firefighters is nowhere near the same.