Campaign to change the Australian flag - should we?

[Psyber]

That's what I can't understand about your logic, mate.

You don't want a puppet head of state, but you're happy with a foreign citizen.

Whether Kerr is Australian is irrelevant. He wasn't our Head of State, the Queen of England is. You know, that country where Australian citizens going through immigration go through the 'Aliens' or 'Others' queue, while the EU citizens go straight through.

Never mind, you obviously don't trust Australians to work something out to control their own destiny.

No, I've never been happy with the monarchy and a foreign citizen as Head of State. But, I don't want to be manipulated by that into supporting change for change sake to whatever our power brokers offer, and get something worse that we'll never get rid of once it is established, because it suits them.
The choice offered suited both major parties because it would consolidate the power of whichever party is in, and reduce the checks on their excesses.

And, yes, I think, like our pollies do, that the average Aussie voter is gullible, and also, possibly, blinded to logic by their emotional prejudices.
I've replied to that highlighted statement from you several times before, and explained my position, but you just trot it out again in the same form.

[Pseudo]

Whether Kerr is Australian is irrelevant. He wasn't our Head of State, the Queen of England is. You know, that country where Australian citizens going through immigration go through the 'Aliens' or 'Others' queue, while the EU citizens go straight through.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the "non-EU citizens" queue at European airports has been a godsend. In several places - including Paris CDG - I've been the only person in that queue and therefore served promptly while the locals glare at me from the back of the human snake which weaves into the distance.

If that's discrimination against antipodeans then I'm all for it!

[redandblack]

Psyber, you're a fair man, so you'll understand that perhaps I'm entitled to trot it out again and again, if you've just trotted out your same position again and again

The net result of your position is that you support the English Queen as our Head of State as the best of a bad lot of options offered. I'm therefore entitled to remind you of how we're treated by our Head of State.

Firstly through immigration, where I totally agree with Pseudo about the practicalities, but not the message, and secondly.....

the Queen of England has awarded MBE's to the members of the Ashes-winning England cricket team for beating that other country of which she's Head of State

PS: This is not an attack on England or the Queen. I think England's great and the Queen does a wonderful job. I'd just like to support her as Queen of her own country, not ours.

[Ronnie]

I believe we should change our flag and the main issue with me is the Union Jack!!


The traditional land owners of this country must shudder when they see the Union Jack and what transpired when white sails on the horizon landed on this magnificant land.

RESPECT!!!

What about respect for the resourceful, hard-working and diligent British people who founded and built our great nation?

Oh you mean the convict slave labour? Or what? Once they started living here they were no longer British mate.

All the British have ever done for Australia after its creation is get Australians killed in their conflicts and then bail on us when we needed them most. Britain, the Queen and all her defective relatives can go jump.

And you don't enjoy the benefits of our British heritage do you mate..no, our laws, language, institutions, they all just fell out of the sky

[Johno6]

leave the flag change the national anthem... if anything.

other wise leave both and get over it

[Psyber]

Psyber, you're a fair man, so you'll understand that perhaps I'm entitled to trot it out again and again, if you've just trotted out your same position again and again
The net result of your position is that you support the English Queen as our Head of State as the best of a bad lot of options offered. I'm therefore entitled to remind you of how we're treated by our Head of State.
Firstly through immigration, where I totally agree with Pseudo about the practicalities, but not the message, and secondly.....
the Queen of England has awarded MBE's to the members of the Ashes-winning England cricket team for beating that other country of which she's Head of State
PS: This is not an attack on England or the Queen. I think England's great and the Queen does a wonderful job. I'd just like to support her as Queen of her own country, not ours.

If you want to be fair you'll take note of my addressing your quote and amend it to: "You don't want a puppet head of state, but you'll put up with a non-puppet foreign citizen, until you can get a non-puppet Australian." I'll say YES to that.

PS: I don't mind whether you attack England or the Queen - it means nothing either way to me.
As I said, I've been a republican since about 1961 - I just care about what sort of Republic we get.

[Farmy]

I believe we should change our flag and the main issue with me is the Union Jack!!


The traditional land owners of this country must shudder when they see the Union Jack and what transpired when white sails on the horizon landed on this magnificant land.

RESPECT!!!

What about respect for the resourceful, hard-working and diligent British people who founded and built our great nation?

Oh you mean the convict slave labour? Or what? Once they started living here they were no longer British mate.

All the British have ever done for Australia after its creation is get Australians killed in their conflicts and then bail on us when we needed them most. Britain, the Queen and all her defective relatives can go jump.

And you don't enjoy the benefits of our British heritage do you mate..no, our laws, language, institutions, they all just fell out of the sky

Thats just natural progression, no need to thank them. It could have been any country colonising this place they didn't do anything special, and the people responsible have been dead for centuries.

That is just a silly line of argument, why don't the British acknowledge the Normans or the Vikings or the Romans in their flag? Don't they enjoy the benefits of foreign influence on their little island?

It goes both ways champ. This is Australia mate, contrary to what alot of royalist pommys like to think it is not Britain, and if you live here permanently you're not British.

For instance my neighbours are from Britain, but they are not British they fly an Australian flag outside their house on Australia day, they're Australian. So if they're Australian then a bunch of snot nosed royalists born in this country definitely are not British.

[Ronnie]

[quote="

Thats just natural progression, no need to thank them. It could have been any country colonising this place they didn't do anything special, and the people responsible have been dead for centuries.[/quote]

No they didn't do anything special, could've been Portugal colonising the place and the result would have been exactly the same

[Farmy]

[quote="

Thats just natural progression, no need to thank them. It could have been any country colonising this place they didn't do anything special, and the people responsible have been dead for centuries.

No they didn't do anything special, could've been Portugal colonising the place and the result would have been exactly the same [/quote]

Oh yeah because the British Empire was so great.....

That is just a silly line of argument, why don't the British acknowledge the Normans or the Vikings or the Romans in their flag? Don't they enjoy the benefits of foreign influence on their little island?

[Psyber]

The British are the Normans and the Vikings and the Romans, with a few remaining Celts around the periphery.
"Viking" includes Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Gotlanders and a few others who took up the custom of "viking" in that era from about 850AD to about 1050 AD, and whose influence continued longer.
The Normans too were descendants of that Viking stock.

[SABRE]

Thank heavens mum was abducted by aliens.
Out of respect, I only ever bow down to the Cooper's family.
And the Antarians when they visit each leap year of course.

[Barto]

I'm not sure why we're so resistant to the change of the flag, as has been stated in this thread we didn't actually fight either of the world wars under it and the erroneous information that we "fought two world wards under it" seems to be the common mantra of why we shouldn't change it.

I wonder if the Canadians were so resistant to getting rid of a flag with the union jack when they went with the maple leaf.

[FOURTH ESTATE]

Time to move on. After 200 years we still hang onto the coat tails of the most dysfunctional family in the world.
Take a good look at the Royals. They are nothing more than a bunch of snobby inbreds. There is no one left in Europe that isn't related to them and they only want to marry other Royals to keep the bloodlines pure. Anyone not of that type is quickly dispatched. Diana & Fergie as classic examples.
Role on Republic and lets change the flag.

[westozfalcon]

It seems that some people (in true Pommy-bashing style) hate the notion of Australia having British heritage and think that we can create some sort of designer past by coming up with a new flag.

[redandblack]

Canada and other countries seem to have comfortably managed to forge their own identity without denying their heritage.

As for Pommy bashing, England seems to delight in plenty of Aussie bashing.

[Psyber]

It seems that some people (in true Pommy-bashing style) hate the notion of Australia having British heritage and think that we can create some sort of designer past by coming up with a new flag.

I blame the Irish remnants and their descendants in the community for the anti-British push.
Joking aside, it is probably one factor in this division of our community...

[redandblack]

Psyber, you're a fair man, so you'll understand that perhaps I'm entitled to trot it out again and again, if you've just trotted out your same position again and again
The net result of your position is that you support the English Queen as our Head of State as the best of a bad lot of options offered. I'm therefore entitled to remind you of how we're treated by our Head of State.
Firstly through immigration, where I totally agree with Pseudo about the practicalities, but not the message, and secondly.....
the Queen of England has awarded MBE's to the members of the Ashes-winning England cricket team for beating that other country of which she's Head of State
PS: This is not an attack on England or the Queen. I think England's great and the Queen does a wonderful job. I'd just like to support her as Queen of her own country, not ours.

If you want to be fair you'll take note of my addressing your quote and amend it to: "You don't want a puppet head of state, but you'll put up with a non-puppet foreign citizen, until you can get a non-puppet Australian." I'll say YES to that.

PS: I don't mind whether you attack England or the Queen - it means nothing either way to me.
As I said, I've been a republican since about 1961 - I just care about what sort of Republic we get.

Interesting take on your thoughts, mate.

By your logic, you regard a HOS appointed by two-thirds of the elected representatives of the people of Australia as potentially a puppet, but you regard an unelected foreign citizen who must be from a particular family and of a particular religion as a non-puppet head of State!

I'm sorry, but I can't quite see your usual reasonable logic there.

You're a pro-republican, but you want to cut off your nose to spite your face. A republican of the worst kind.

[Dirko]

Canada and other countries seem to have comfortably managed to forge their own identity without denying their heritage.

As for Pommy bashing, England seems to delight in plenty of Aussie bashing.

Canada and South Africa to an extent both had major influences in the early years. France for the Canucks and the Dutch for the Saffers. So the English didn't have anywhere near the influence on those countries as what they did in Australia.

Personally I think the flag is average and should better reflect the multi culture-ism that we now have. I'd be happy to change it.

[Psyber]

Interesting take on your thoughts, mate.
By your logic, you regard a HOS appointed by two-thirds of the elected representatives of the people of Australia as potentially a puppet, but you regard an unelected foreign citizen who must be from a particular family and of a particular religion as a non-puppet head of State!
I'm sorry, but I can't quite see your usual reasonable logic there.
You're a pro-republican, but you want to cut off your nose to spite your face. A republican of the worst kind.

The logic is simple really - I value autonomy and freedom more than symbols...

A HOS appointed by 100% vote of our two major parties as elected representatives of the people of Australia would still be obedient primarily to the parties and Parliament.
Neither major party wants any constitutional checks to exist outside the house, and they would choose someone who agreed with that.
My ideal of a parliament of independents, who decide matters by consensus rather than by having 51% of the seats, looks like it cannot be achieved.
Therefore, I want a HOS who is beholden to the people and not to the major parties.
They can then act, in part, as a form of Ombudsman guarding our rights and freedoms.

At least those principles are supported by the present constitutional arrangement, by a system that values them and our present HOS could use them.
They would have been lost under the only republican offer ever put up for referendum - it offered to take away existing checks without replacing them.
Only an authoritarian person would want to weaken those protections, but I guess there are a lot of them in politics.

Of course opinion in this issue could be beyond logic and depend only on how one felt about the Whitlam/Kerr issue 34 years ago...

[redandblack]

Thanks for that, Psyber. I respect your viewpoint and explanation.

I'll reply in more detail later, but I'm puzzled by your 'motherhood' statement about valuing autonomy and freedom more than symbols. I would have thought there was no greater freedom than the freedom to vote and have elected representatives to make decisions.

I would also have thought that there were few greater examples of symbolism to Australia than the English royal family.

As I've said before, I worry that you're starting to believe your signature